Tweet
I saw this post today and decided to write a short reply.
I think that a strategically sound thing for Progressives to do right now is, rather than ridicule Righties confused/embarrassed by what a disaster their party has become, to point out to them that Progressive populism is actually better aligned with their interests than Tea Party folks.
People were so pissed off after the horror of the Bush administration that they needed to lash out. (Fear, job loss, economic devastation, and decline of democracy will do that to ya!) However, Obama wanted to revisit his Harvard Law Review “I can bring everybody together” days, so he deliberately neglected to channel that angst towards good long-term ends, like reforming the financial systems. He (yes, arrogantly, I suppose) thought that his “leadership” would be enough to change things. Wrong. Changing things changes things! Changing laws that exacerbate economic injustice, tax codes that favor the uber-wealthy, changing the Wall-Street-can-do-no-wrong culture…you’re all aware of the change opportunities he missed.
Having some pro-OWS outlets that make the case that Tea Partiers should naturally be supportive of OWS would “bring together conservatives and liberals” in a way that even Obama would have to respect. (Given their persisting incompetence at taking advantage of this type of opportunity, I’d like to leave the Democratic Party out of this post.) The media naturally has a Right v. Left bias, and this bias helps both parties while it harms the average American. If the 99% v. 1% narrative is ever to become the frame by which the media approach stories (and it would serve Progressives well if that happened) then we need to avoid Left v. Right framing as much as possible, even in our own minds.
Elizabeth Warren really impressed me when, in the meeting where she was called a “socialist whore”, her first response to the man who insulted her was to give a heartfelt message that she was sorry about his unemployment situation, and equally sorry that Congress was unwilling to help. She took his outburst as a chance to say that “We still have a lot of work to do.” That was a wonderful way to handle the situation: don’t let the Right v. Left (or, Capitalist v.s Socialist) frame get imposed, but use some ju jitsu to turn the situation into a 99% v. 1%. Coming at Tea Partiers head on is enormously counter-productive. It revigorates them and hardens their resolve that “socialists” need to be weeded out of public life.
I can hear you now: “The racist, sexist, morally bankrupt elements of the Tea Party are too ignorant/racist/sexist to ever join the OWS movement.” True enough. But, a substantial portion of the TP movement was simply citizens freaked out by shit in 2009, people who did not have the opportunity to understand the root causes of the problems. I think time, and OWS, have contributed to a better understanding that the Dems/government/deficit/President are not the core problem. Remember, the media does have a bias towards sensationalist images from Tea Party rallies. I went to a number of town halls during the Tea Party summer, and most of the TP types were simply confused and angry. Are 25% simply morally bankrupt idiots and bigots? Sure, maybe. So, ignore them. Even getting 25% of the Tea Party types to be sympathetic to the OWS types would have huge consequences in how powerful the OWS movement could become. After, Congress’s 9% approval rating suggests lots of room for a strong Progressive voice…if we think clearly about communication strategies.
So, I understand the inclination to gloat a little, and to lord over Righties just how screwed up and destructively cartoonish their “movement” has made them and the GOP. However, I think that we have to consider long term goals and plans— God knows the Right does!— and be aware of openings like this one. We shouldn’t be laughing at basically decent, but horribly mis-informed, Tea Partiers. We should be educating, recruiting, and eventually, welcoming to the right side of history.
56 Comments
Using big French words like rapprochement with the TP might be counterproductive, they might think you are a Commie trying to infiltrate their Patriotic Party.
If any of them want to support the Occupy Movement they will be welcome but they need to reach out, not the Movement.
The big French word was for FDL.
If each “side” (OWS & TP) waits for the other to reach out, then the bankers will be laughing all the way to the…well, you know.
I never read “How To Win Friends And Influence People” but I would hazard a guess that arrogance and condescension are not highly recommended.
Hey I once went to a TP rally in Manhattan, just to see what it was like. Had NOTHING in common with anything that was said.
Bending over & taking it in the rear like O does must be the preferred approach.
Or is that rapproach.
Wait, who is being arrogant and condescending? I may have been a little condescending towards the President and the Dems, but they kind of deserve it. Or, was the condescension towards mis-informed Tea Partiers?
I’ll happily admit that a TP rally may have been very different than a Town Hall at which Tea Partiers showed up (along with with the “general public”). I suspect that a TP rally would attract the rabid 25% I described above. But, I think there are people who are sympathetic with the TP but are not wholly without redeeming features.
It appears the Teahadists are trying to take over the occupation in Vegas. Organizers are calling for more sane people to come to GA meetings to counter the threat.
I wish OWS would set aside a whole Saturday to invite Tea Partiers for friendly discussions and debate, with a view towards figuring out a) what they have in common and b) what specific actions they could both support.
“If each “side” (OWS & TP) waits for the other to reach out, then the bankers will be laughing all the way to the…well, you know.”
How true. To me, there’s nothing difficult about understanding that somebody can be your ally on one issue, and your enemy on another, and furthermore, there’s nothing particularly wrong with this situation”.
What’s ‘wrong’, in the sense of democratically inefficient and disempowering to the 99%, is when people want to be purists to the degreee that they demonize people who are not their friends on any number of issues – but not all.
Appeals to Tea Parties should be directly to their members, not the organizations. Whether or not they’re coopted, clearly some Tea Party leaders are working overtime to demonize OWS. Like Judson Phillips of Tea Party Nation, who is quite the sourpuss. I frankly feel sorry for him.
If I knew that all Tea Party Nation members were just like Judson Phillips, then I’d say “don’t bother”. But I don’t know that. Furthermore, I’ve heard Gary Null speak of his multiple interviews with Tea Party members – which were over a thousand – and I’d say that I think he’d roughly agree with your 25% figure for the “don’t bother faction”.
That leaves 75% that you can work with, if I did my math right.
If OWS can’t talk millions of Tea Partiers into something as basic as moving their money out of Wall Street banks, then what is the prognosis for OWS getting the government to do anything? The government works for the 1%; most Tea Party members are in the 99%, and they know it.
In fact, I’d like to see one Saturday morning or afternoon set aside by OccupyX’s, per month, which they can call “Tea Party Saturday”. The invitation to discuss and, hopefully, collaborate, should be an open one.
sage advice, i hope it is heeded
i have always believed that there was legitimate anger behind the tp that the gop/cons eagerly coopted when obama punted on rightfully blaming wall street
of course, a % of the tp is hopelessly backward but many aren’t and, to the extent the tp resonated with the american people (which it did for a while), these people are natural ows allies
in any event, if the 99% is ever going to approach its potential it will have to be as inclusionary as possible
to me a reasonable guide is this: short of outright bigots, ows should not reject anyone unless that person’s core beliefs are at odds with ows’ fundamental message of economic populism
OWS does not view the Tea Party as the other. FDL does. Highly recommended.
As Noam Chomsky has pointed out, the basic reasons behind her rise of the tea party is economic decline. They have legitimate reasons for being angry . This movement is all about changing the left/right paradigm which allows the MOTU to split one part of the population from the other a in classic divide and conquer move that has each side voting against it’s own self interest.
On the one hand fabricated cultural wedge issues and on the other the we suck less party. Time to close the circle !
Stop cooperating !
I can only draw conclusions about the TPers from personal experience with some of them and the leaders they choose. They claim to want their country back, but who took it from them?
They answer that question by raging against Blacks on welfare and immigrants stealing their jobs all made possible by those Liberals in DC.
This is not economic populism it is fear and loathing of the Other and fear of the loss of dominance, however tenuous, over the Other.
There are plenty of sane people in Amerika to reach out to so why waste time and energy on the pridefully ignorant.
The idea of members of the Tea Party working together with #OWS is actually not so far-fetched. Here’s a couple of links where Tea Party members come out in support of #OWS — one of them is by Tea Party founder Karl Denninger!
http://politeaparty.blogspot.com/2011/10/tea-party-founder-speaks-out-in-support.html
http://www.notinkansas.us/occupy.html
There are factions of the Tea Party which haven’t been coopted by the Koch-Freedomworks-Republican Party and which maintain their independence and anti-Establishment roots.
I’m in the NYC GA online community and I’ve seen chatter about some sort of Tea Party outreach but I haven’t seen anything specific.
I’m all for cooperation between the two groups especially on issues that are transpartisan and which cross ideological lines. For example, the Citizens United case, ballot access and electoral reform, etc.
great comment
to amplify a bit: the tp has generally adopted the con view that big government is the problem and that big business is the solution
to reach this conclusion, the tp incorrectly assume three things: 1) that big government is the real power and, therefore, the problems we face must be caused by big government; 2) that we don’t need a strong national government; and 3) weakening the national government allows big business to operate freely and in a manner beneficial to the people
the tp does not realize or understand that big government is controlled by big business, especially wall street & big oil
the tp does not realize or understand that the corporatists have merged with government officials into a plutocracy where government is the puppet and big business is the puppet master
the tp does realize or understand that corporations do not act in the public interest in any sense and, if unchecked, corporations will act in the psychopathic manner for which they are chartered
the tp does realize or understand that only government has the power to control the psychopathic tendencies of corporations
the tp does realize or understand that the national government is the mechanism by which the american people come together to solve our common problems and, especially in a more crowded and complex world, that problem-solving capacity is vital to our well-being
the tp’s anger is misguided because its syllogism misses these crucial facts
Rearproach. Sorry, couldn’t resist.
some people are hopeless but many are simply misguided and reaching them is the key to success
that is how the right wing accomplished what it has (while destroying the planet in the process)
I know a Sarah Palin supporter who “can’t blame the OWS people at all.” She really has it in for the banks and the bailout. The subject of this diary is not so far-fetched at all.
I think this is happening organically. Someone near and dear to me who previously voted Republican and was at least taken with the Tea Party – if not a fullblown acolyte – has expressed great interest in the Occupy movement and has started to share all my commie-pinko links on Facebook with her friends. And this time she’s not making fun of me.
I wonder if there are any Tea Shops suitable for occupation. To catch the right sort of fish, you need the right sort of bait. (OK, I just made up that 2nd sentence, not being a fisherman.)
:-)
I absolutely agree !
Their misconceptions were not arrived at by simple miscalculation either ! Koch funded groups such as freedom works and americans for prosperity as well as constant misinformation from sources like FOX news have misled them by consciously misdirecting their anger towards the corporate owned government rather than against it’s handlers.
Remember as well that , just as in the lead up to a Nazi controlled Germany, economic decline was used to sell racism and scape goat minorities.
If you dig deeper into the reasons this SP supporter,yikes, has it in for the bailout you may find that it is laid at the feet of the Commie In Chief not the Decider or any of the patrioitic leaders of her party.
I guess “can’t blame the OWS people at all” is better than “them dirty Hippies” but it falls short of support.
The Movement has real issues with TP and other extremists today in Vegas and Phoenix so this diversion is secondary at best.
Lets offer them the democrats ! That’ll show we’ve moved beyond the two party paradigm in earnest . ANd on the end of the hook ? A wiggling Obama as he is seen on you tube, previous campaign promises juxtaposed agains his betrayal of those same promises once in office !
“I am actually a proponent of single payer” , “no retroactive immunity for the telecoms”, “transparency” ,”an end of corporate money and lobbyists in government”, “environmentalism”, “an end to the grave abuses of the constitution under BUsh” etc…
“who is being arrogant and condescending?”
Are you kidding, or is a superiority complex so much a part of the Liberal mindset you’re not even aware of it?
On rare occasions an article such as yours appears here, one which correctly points out the commonalities between the screwed-over regular folks who happen to have Conservative views and the screwed-over regular folks who happen to have Liberal views. That’s good, but almost invariably these articles have a tone of “those poor confused, embarrassed and horribly mis-informed folks just don’t understand: they need us enlightened and Progressive types to educate them.”
p.s. Best pun I’ve heard in quite awhile, OhioGringo 8^)
OK. I see your point. I would like to note two things, however. First, when a persistent theme in the Tea Party was some version of “Keep the government out of my Medicare” then, yes, I do think there is some education is in order. It is not a matter of being “enlightened” but rather it is a matter of being educated about some simple facts (e.g. like Medicare being a government program). And, yes, for the record I really do think that liberals should receive an education from conservatives where appropriate (as it sometimes is when discourses about “rights” gets out of control and thoughtful conservatives point out the absurdities).
Second, my post was in response to reports of conservatives being embarrassed and confused. My reference was to the tone and content of the article to which I was responding (which suggested that the GOP field is so strange that conservatives were confused and embarrassed).
But,you’re right. Any attempt to engage that begins with arrogance and condescension is wrong-headed, not to mention counter-productive. The common denominator here is that middle-class people from both left and right are getting screwed, and any approach that shifts the focus to this common set of problems is preferable to an approach that reinforces the status quo.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my question. Seriously.
“NOTHING in common with anything that was said.”
That’s fine, but can you tell us if you had anything in common with them as people? Were they ignorant racist asshats clutching guns and bibles or were they just regular folks who wanted a fair deal for themselves and everyone else?
My point is that Left or Right the goals and motivations are pretty much the same: life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. The differences are in strategies, the perception of the best way to get from point A to point B. Sorry to burst your ego bubble, but this isn’t a case of good (you) vs. evil (them): it’s more like two New Yorkers arguing over the best route to downtown Manhattan during rush hour.
Important post, skolion.
My first thought was, I, and I would assume many others, have been where many of the Tea Party members are today. It just was given to me the possibility to go elsewhere to find the information I needed, back in the day – some folks really don’t have time to do that; some folks still trust that the media have their best interests at heart. I understand that because back in the day, they did. What they told us was to a large extent what we needed to know.
I can’t judge others who are where I have been in the past. We instead need to give them the opportunity, and that is hard, to hear another version of the halftruths and distortions they have been getting, but not in a judgmental way.
I was struck by the comment on Kevin’s Memphis post from one of the Occupy Memphis participants:
“It is true that we have people of all political persuasions here. The only requirement for people to join in is an agreement to nonviolence, no drugs, no alcohol, no weapons, and everything peaceful and they identify with the 99 Percent. It is not true, however, that we are completely disorganized, we don’t know what we’re doing, we don’t have any goals and we don’t have a plan. I think one of the things that confuses people, who come from backgrounds with hierarchical organizations, where leaders make decisions and those decisions are handed down to members or people that are in an organization—It’s that this is a completely different way of organizing. It’s not disorganization.”
Seems to me that is a perfect place to begin: all parties are welcome as this is not a discussion about this or that party. And if the requirements to participate are as the quote points out, people from any party can come, take their turn in the stack to speak out about what they think is important, even if they hew to the tea party line. Then, they will get some of the arguments in dialogue that have been presented on this thread.
They have to be made welcome because they are indeed part of the 99% and this is where they can test their ideas. You would be surprised; some of those ideas may well be good ones. Wait and see; let them in if they want to come and be good hosts. This was a sign of superior consciousness in ancient Greece: the ability to host strangers in need, just in case they were divinities in disguise. It’s a great concept I think.
Sure, failure to mock should not count as “support”. But, it is a step in the right direction.
Regarding the Vegas and Phoenix situations, this is an example of something that we (i.e. progressives) should have seen coming, and prepared for. It really is a no-brainer for dedicated GOP operatives (Koch-ites, etc.) to just show up and try to blow up the consensus model of leadership that has been part of what is so effective and impressive about OWS.
But, my point is that there should be a way to handle this situation so that the hardcore 25% Tea Partiers (and operatives) risk alienating their own 75% who are just trying to make sense of how (to reference the famous OWS sign) things got to be so “fucked up and bullshit”.
“of course, a % of the tp is hopelessly backward but many aren’t”
Any group larger than a couple dozen will have at least one moron, and that goes for OWS as well as TP. I think it is a very large mistake to demonize the entire crowd based on the actions/attitudes of the fringe element.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, and for the unexpected reference to the system of xenia (“guest-friendship”) in ancient Greece!
Good post and good ideas. If I can throw in my 2-cents – I think rapproachement might be a bit premature.
We’ve had 30 years of a consistent – and effective – drumbeat from the corporatists designed to make questioning the role of the 1% completely taboo. (Class warfare!! Bad…BAD). The OWS movement has a huge job of consciousness-raising ahead of it.
Extending an invitation to people who would fight that effort tooth and nail is a mistake, I think.
This is not to advocate for pushing away anyone who was curious and was drawn to the OWS movement on their own.
I’m only saying that the time to recruit from the moderate tea party ranks is after a message of necessary investigation into the shenanigans of the top !% has had a chance to percolate through the culture for a while.
“…this isn’t a case of good (you) vs. evil (them): it’s more like two New Yorkers arguing over the best route to downtown Manhattan during rush hour.”
This is great, ironymeter, and since I was in the Greek classical vein, couldn’t help linking your comment to the Dialogues of Plato, where it is often important to know where the participants come from, the places, not only their points of view – as well as where they are physically going after the dialogue ends. That’s what is exciting reading the OWS blogs, all the places!
The Tea Party and the OWS have lots in common! Except for one being overwhelmingly peopled by bigots and the fact that one of them is an energy industry funded astroturf group and then there’s the slight difference of one group consistently supporting and electing the very people who have caused their own economic decline, (okay, they kinda both share that trait). There’s also the teeny disparity in that one group as a whole believes in economic equality while the other one believes they should be “more equal” than everybody else. Other than those and some more specific reasons I won’t take the time to list, two peas in a pod, yep!
Look, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: The OWS has created a kind of unity that this country hasn’t seen in a long time while the Tea Party creates division BY DESIGN, (oops, I listed another of those pesky diversities), but unity is not the same thing as alliance. I’m happy about the unity and would like to see more of it but an alliance with Tea Partiers? Hell No! I don’t associate myself with the FRC or the KKK either and the ugly truth is there is a lot more overlap of hate group members with the Tea Party than with the #OWS. The 99% includes virtually every bigoted asshole, thief, murderer, criminal, self loathing closet case, etc that you have every known or has ever touched you personally. Every jerk you’ve ever been stuck with day in and day out at work, every leering paedophile who you have ever unknowingly been acquainted with, every loud mouthed hypocrite with whom you’ve been somehow compelled to put up with. Just because they are part of the 99%, doesn’t make them good or decent or even marginally tolerable human beings. I educate where I’m able but let’s be real here. The Tea Party isn’t going to ever make nice with people their puppeteers hate.
You are most welcome! :~)
Margaret, you explain well the differences between the Tea Party and OWS, but as I said in my comment, there’s a further difference in that OWS is not a party. That means that as an organization it is functioning differently from the way a political party functions. I would agree with you and wouldn’t promote a meeting between these two very different groups in any way – as somebody said, apples and oranges.
This movement, OWS, is structured to accomodate people, not parties. Now, individual Tea Partiers are welcome to express their views, and I am thinking that if Tea Partiers are ‘taking over’ this or that Occupy, then sadly that will not be an Occupy and that needs to be pointed out. There is a fundamental nonpartyness that any Occupy has to adhere to, just as they adhere to nonviolence and all the other attributes of membership.
It’s a bit like here at FDL. People of opposing views are allowed to be here as long as they play by the rules. OWS has been very intelligent and creative about the fundamental structure of the movement. And as Dostoievski points out, it’s very easy to love mankind in a general way; not easy to love this or that individual when you are up close and personal. But that’s essentially what we are required to do, or at least to tolerate and respect other individual points of view. Otherwise it is going to permanently be us against them and the ones in the middle get bombed. Nah, there has to be a better way!
OK, let’s look at it this way. ~27% of the US population (300,000,000 ish) has favorable views of the TP. Let’s take 25% of that 27%, and with some rounding, that leaves about 20 million asshats in the country. This is what I consider the core of the worst version of the Tea Party. And, I will concede that this 20 million includes many of the types you’ve described. But, of that 81 million or so who have favorable opinions of the TP how many are willing to stop lending the TP their support if they see that OWS is, at minimum, equally concerned with issues that concern them? Cutting TP support in half is a good thing, even if not all of that support goes to OWS— and even if none of those supporters do anything but stay home.
I think it is an error to think (not that you are saying this, Margaret) that because most/all racist, ignorant, Randian, asshats are Tea Partiers it follows that all Tea Partiers are ignorant, Randian, asshats.
And, “BY DESIGN”… nicely done.
“GOP field is so strange that conservatives were confused and embarrassed”
Hell, yes, although I’d say “pissed off” rather than “confused” (the embarrassed part is quite correct).
Sorry to burst your ego bubble, but the Right wants to run everyone else’s life, they want the “freedom” to deny liberty to people they don’t approve of, and they are only happy when their self-proclaimed “enemies” suffer and are unhappy.
Tim Chapman, CEO of Action for America:
“The Tea Party opposes the corrupt nexus between Big Government, Big Business, Big Labor and Big WallStreet that have the shifted the playing field away from the little guy, the entrepreneur, the struggling family business, etc”
“their anger is directed at an Establishment that is far too cozy with the Bigs – Big Business, Big Wall Street, Big Labor and Big Government”
Do you disagree with that?
“why waste time and energy on the pridefully ignorant.”
I ask myself that question fairly often.
Damn it, skolion. I let it slide the first time, and the second, but if you’re going to keep harping that 25% of the TP are “simply morally bankrupt idiots and bigots” then I’d like to see something that supports that position.
Thanks for the cliche, storyofo, but in case it slipped your attention the Right thinks people should make their own choices and the Left won’t even trust them to decide what to eat or what light bulbs to buy.
Pretty obvious who wants to “run everyone else’s life”, huh?
Evidence? Hmm, Keith Olberman said so! Just kidding.
Visual evidence here: http://theredphoenixapl.org/2011/07/13/analysis-of-the-tea-party-movement/
A University study here: http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/racepolitics.html
Lenny McAllister (a tea party supporter) admitting to the WA-PO that the TP racist elements (which he, admirably, spoke out against).
Now, regarding the ignorance of the 25%, if you look at polling data you’ll see that people who “strongly identify” with the TP tended to have a poor handle on the facts at issue (e.g. everything from what the Constitution actually says [as opposed, for example, to the Declaration] to the percentage of the US budget spent on foreign aid). Again, these are factual issues.
Is nobody in the TP ignorant, morally bankrupt, racist, etc.? Really, nobody? (I’m sure that there are some morally bankrupt Dems— happy to admit it on their behalf.) So, maybe the percentage is less than 25, maybe 20%, 15%. I don’t care about the percentages so much as I care about not painting every TP supporter with the same brush.
ironymeter, are you suggesting that the TP is populated entirely by well-informed, virtuous, blind-to-skin-color, reasonable people? That position would require some serious evidence in support.
BTW, I loved your New-Yorkers-arguing-about-routes metaphor. Great.
Yes, I’ve seen those pictures: they’ve been bandied about over and over and over again. Shall we make a deal? If pix of a handful of TPers with racist signs means a quarter of the movement is racist then pix of a handful of OWSers with anti-Semitic signs means a quarter of the movement is anti-Semitic. Deal?
“factual issues”? Either not knowing the percentage of the US budget spent on foreign aid makes one a morally bankrupt bigot or this is a red herring.
“nobody in the TP ignorant, morally bankrupt, racist, etc.” “the TP is populated entirely by well-informed, virtuous, blind-to-skin-color, reasonable people” Wow, I’d really have a hell of a time trying to defend that position, wouldn’t I? Fortunately, I never said any such thing and feel no particular need to defend words someone else put in my mouth.
Of course there are racists, fools, tax cheats, liars, wife beaters and people with bad breath in the TP. Now tell me no such people exist in OWS, if you can. Please see my earlier remarks: “Any group larger than a couple dozen will have at least one moron”, and “I think it is a very large mistake to demonize the entire crowd based on the actions/attitudes of the fringe element.”
“I don’t care about the percentages so much as I care about not painting every TP supporter with the same brush.” good for you, and thanks. May I suggest that if you feel there is a minority of TPers who are racist asshats that you should phrase it that way? You see, if you say “there is a fringe element to the TP with a racist agenda” I will say, “Sadly true, but fortunately their views are rejected by the vast majority.” When you say 25% you may not be painting ALL with the same brush, but it’s a big enough brush to scare folks off. An excess of exaggeration can have the same effect as a flat out lie…
skolion: I’m not trying to be demeaning, insulting, or confrontational, and no where (no where, ever) have I said one negative word about the goals or motivations of the OWS protesters. My only objection here is to propagating the cliched and stereotypical representation of the TP as Kluckers whose sheets happen to be at the cleaners that day.
Glad you liked the metaphor 8^)
“They have to be made welcome because they are indeed part of the 99%”
Nail on the head, juliania: thank you. May I suggest that it boils down to this: Is it going to be 99% vs. 1%, or 49.5% vs. 1% with no one else invited or welcome?
Fair enough. And, yes, I will absolutely admit that the left (or people associated with the left, if that makes a difference) has its own clowns. I’ll ever admit a 1:1 ratio of people with unreasonable positions on both sides (though the nature of their unreasonableness varies, of course).
So, after all of this, do we basically agree? Each side has its jerks; each side overreacts to the jerks on the other side; the media fixates on the jerks on either side; and, this whole “sides” thing is actually not that productive?
You admit that the TP has a minority of clowns, and I suggest that the TP has a minority of clowns. You seem to object only to my putting a number of that minority— 25% is too broad a brush, but 15% is fine. I’ve enjoyed our back-and-forth on this, but it seems like you might be looking for something to quibble about given our broad agreement.
One final thing (for now), when I mentioned polling data about factual knowledge I specifically limited my comments: “regarding the ignorance…”. Again, lack of knowledge is the definition of ignorance. I will try to do you the same courtesy, but please don’t put words into my mouth either.
I will seriously consider adopting your language re: the minority of clowns. It allows for the same points, but is less loaded than assigning a percentage.
“after a message of necessary investigation into the shenanigans of the top !%”
Well, I have some good news for you: the Tea Party is and has been screaming for an investigation of Federal Reserve, totally opposed to the Wall Street bailout, and against corporate influence in government from the word GO.
So, seeing as how the OWS “message” was received even before it was sent maybe now IS the time to reach out to the moderate tea party ranks?
“I’ll ever admit a 1:1 ratio of people with unreasonable positions on both sides”
Frankly (and I’ve never denied this) I think you’ll find a higher percentage of unreasonable people on the Right, if we’re defining unreasonable as bigoted and prone to violence. That’s not because a Conservative philosophy is inherently bigoted and violent but because the greater degree of individual freedom allows greater opportunities for abuse.
“So, after all of this, do we basically agree? Each side has its jerks; each side overreacts to the jerks on the other side; the media fixates on the jerks on either side; and, this whole “sides” thing is actually not that productive?”
Do we basically agree? Absolutely!
“you might be looking for something to quibble about”
Could be: minorities (and in this place, that’s me) sometimes tend to be preemptively defensive. Still, I think that despite your occasional disclaimers you have tended to smear the Tea Party as a whole, and I’m sure you noticed that plenty of others jumped on the bandwagon?
“I specifically limited my comments: ‘regarding the ignorance…’.”
Yes: my bad. I was hung up on the racist issue.
“It allows for the same points, but is less loaded than assigning a percentage.”
Cool: because the points are good ones. My only objection was to the width of your brush (no dirty jokes, plz!).
I’ve enjoyed our discussion, skolion, and hope to see more articles by you in the future. I hope you have a great weekend!
This is an excellent post and a heartening, as well as necessary and long overdue, conversation in the Comments. This issue has been raised in the past, most notably by Jane, and has always seemed worthy of further exploration to me. This post and comments is a great next step, and still just the beginning of an important process. Just to note one specific, the challenge is to bring along the majority of reasonables, not to condemn the minority of the unreasonables. The reasonables will have a natural tendency toward rapprochement, if given a decent opportunity, just as was illustrated right here by the back-and-forth between skolion and ironymeter. Onward and upward.
Agreed. OWS is more a social upheaval and orders of magnitude larger and more profound than any party as I noted here.
Republicans are spurning the Tea Party Convention that is going on right now.
The politicians suddenly remembered they had other things to do.
I visited the site, and the speakers slots aren’t filled up, but those that are there are anti-muslim bigots, and ignorant christian ass-hats like Ralph Reed.
Ron Paul supporters and left and center libertarians are at OWS, so it’s not a progressive movement per say. IMO it’s best to leave that label behind and go with 99% because politics is changing again and factions are being co-opted or split again. TP that aren’t liberal haters will find their way to ows as the republicans snub them.
AFL-CIO Teamsters union hypocrite Bret Caldwell pushed a coalition for a clean supply chain of environmentally sound jobs with Marcos from Dailykos http://huff.to/tpUfsA
Bret Caldwell now supports the Keystone XL pipeline.
http://politi.co/vntB7X #greenwash
Also, the new DNC religious outreach person is doesn’t support marriage equality, or pro-choice for women.
Obama doesn’t have a problem with soldiers being subject to proselytization and becoming battlefield Proselytizers. He used to call himself progressive – now it’s “you progressives.”
Hillary Clinton calls herself a progressive and yet she is part of the DLC/Third way and also a member of “The Family” ( they don’t ordinarily let females be a part of that org, but she has power so she is accepted.)
Where I am going with this is that like the Tea Party, they view their movement as pure even though it’s contaminated beyond redemption.
TP’ers don’t need to be evangelized, just treated with a modicum of respect and they’ll come over on their own.
“Lies, damned lies, and statistics”
90% of statists are made up on the spot. The ADL just did one and they determined that 15% of Americans are deeply anti-semetic.
One of the questions was “Do you believe that jews killed Christ? “The question was not “Should jews today be held responsible for it?” now was any other type of nuanced answer available for the choice.
This is a story in the bible. if Christians believe the new testament bible to be true, they are accordingly, automatic jew haters.
My friend of the three names has been advocating embracing the Tea Party (as well as revolution) as part of the 99% since August, and featured Justin Raimondo’s prescient and magnificent quote, brought to us by Edward Teller:
““Left” and “right” mean nothing in the current context: the real division is between government-privileged plutocrats and the rest of us. What you have to ask yourself is this: which side are you on?”
On the thread I’m hoping that his vision would trump mine in the end. Last week he clipped our conversation, stuck it into an email, sent it to me and intimated: “What a difference three months can make!”, referring to my realizations this movement and awakening are indeed a nascent Second American Revolution.
Let’s not fuck it up by being side-tracked by social wedge issues and party politics now, but remember our common humanity should and must trump all else in this struggle to wrest back our government from those we’ve allowed to subjugate us for their own schemes to accrue power and wealth as they cavalierly destroy our planet and slowly kill the rest of us, whether consciously or carelessly.
We now have the chance to talk face to face with our fellow citizens on the ground, not on Facebook and in the pixels of the blogosphere…to discover which points of commonality we can build on. It makes me think of Sting’s songline from the past: ‘I hope the Russians love their children, too’, (which OT makes me think how this administration seems intent on another Cold War with Russia).
http://my.firedoglake.com/tucsonrobert1/2011/08/03/it-is-time-to-embrace-tea-party-members/
Anyway: Let’s love whom we’re able to, build community alliances for meeting our basic needs, stow a portion of our past cynicism, and create a true People’s Rebellion.
Unless they believe in forgiveness: doesn’t the bible have a few words on that topic?