
This cutaway diagram shows the central reactor vessel and thick concrete containment in a typical boiling water reactor of the same era as Fukushima Daiichi 1 (image: www.world-nuclear-news.org)
First, thanks much to our great commentors — Masoninblue, earlofhuntingdon, Professor Foland and many others — who continue to provide updates and expert analysis on the Japanese nuclear crisis. And hat tip to commentor “lobster” for finding a better schematic that helps illustrate the conflicting stories about a “meltdown.” [Updated to reflect suggestions for clarity.]
You can find other articles at the these links:
Explosion At Quake Damaged Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant
Japan Nuclear Watch – Struggling To Prevent Meltdowns
Disaster is not too strong a word for what has happened to Japan in the last three days. The biggest earthquake recorded, the subsequent massive tsunami and now the follow-on of at least two partial meltdowns of nuclear reactors at Fukushima and the critical status of three more there, and others in the nation.
Let’s start with a little vocabulary so things are as clear as they can be in this confusing situation. When I talk about the “Reactor Vessel,” I am talking about the stainless steel bottle where the fuel and control rods are housed. This also includes the entire pressurized system for generation of electricity as it is a closed single loop system.
When I talk about the “Reactor Building,” that is a concrete structure primarily designed to keep the weather off of the reactor and generator equipment. It was not designed to be another sealed radiation containment building like AT some of the plants elsewhere the in the world.
That said, let’s talk about what we do know. Reports vary but between 200,000 and 450,000 people have been ordered evacuated from the area around the Daiichi and Daini power stations. The Daiichi complex is the older of the two with 6 reactors built in the 1970’s and Daini has 4 reactors built in the 1980’s
It is the Daiichi Unit Number 1 that has experienced the explosion (more on that shortly) and has been the focus of an attempt to cool the reactor core with seawater. Reports have come in that Unit Number 3 there has also had a complete failure of the emergency cooling system and rods are exposed to a level of three meters. (more after the jump)
This is a very dire situation as some percentage of the rods (it is unclear how many) have been loaded with Plutonium instead of Uranium235. Plutonium is not only radioactive for a much longer time (a half life of 24,100 years) than uranium but is directly toxic to humans in small doses. If this reactor completely melts down and ruptures its containment vessel exposure to the resulting fallout pollution would be devastating.
Right now the Japanese officials are doing all they can to prevent this. Remember that a partial meltdown is not the same as a full blown loss of containment. The 3 Mile Island plant suffered a partial meltdown, and while radioactive steam was released, they did not lose containment of the reactor core.
Going back to Daiichi One, there has been a lot of back and forth about the hydrogen explosion yesterday. It is important to know that this type of reactor always generates hydrogen in its normal operations. In fact the hydrogen generated is used to help cool the turbines that produce the electricity. When they were performing the emergency venting to reduce the pressure on the reactor vessel, hydrogen gas would be vented along with the steam. That it built up in the generation building is probably not as surprising as you might think given that the plant had been hit by a major earthquake prior to this accident event.
That there was an explosion does not mean that the reactor vessel ruptured. The fact that the radiation levels at the plant had been falling all day yesterday tends to indicate the containment of the core had been maintained. The detection of Cesium around the plant is an indicator that fuel rods had indeed been melting and exposing the inner core of the rods. But again, those elements would be released with hydrogen and radioactive steam in the venting.
In fact the venting may have contributed to the exposure of the rods themselves. Prior to the seawater injection the loop was a closed system. When the steam at the top of the system generated pressure on the whole system, it raised the boiling point of the water, which allows operations at higher temperatures.
Once venting begins it is a race to see if you can bring the pressure of the overheated system down to safe levels without allowing the drop in pressure to flash too much of the water into a gaseous state and reduce its cooling of the core. It seems that they lost this race before they could pump in seawater.
What the authorities are trying to do now is prevent a catastrophic loss of containment at both Unit 1 and Unit 3. There is fear of an impending hydrogen explosion at Unit 3 as the same conditions that existed at Unit 1 are present there. They have been venting steam, but as I said above it is a temporary solution, at best.
Right now the New York Times is reporting that the radiation levels are once again raising at Daiichi. The level in the reactor control room is 1000 times normal. This is very dangerous for the brave technicians who are desperately working to prevent a much more massive disaster than has already occurred.
The evacuations and distribution of iodine tablets are precautionary measures. This is a good and right thing to do. Of course this is all complicated by the fact that Japan has just experienced a major natural disaster and there are tens of millions of people without power and tens of thousands in need of aid and rescue.
It is a scary and desperate time in the area around Fukushima right now. Things continue to develop and what really happened and in what order will not be fully known for some time. Right now it is all about preventing these and other reactors from melting down and having a complete loss of containment. If that happens it will be a death sentence for anyone working at the plants, though I have no doubt those still there will stay as long as they can to mitigate that catastrophe. Please keep these brave and desperate people in your thoughts.
The floor is yours.
More on this story as it becomes available.



301 Comments

Thanks for staying on this, Bill. Am just stunned by hearing an nuclear expert, Joe Cirincione on This Week, earlier pointing out that probably workers now trying to prevent catastrophe had already sustained a fatal amount of radiation poisoning.
Yeah. It is tragic but they keep working. And thank goodness they do.
I’m glad you mentioned the brave plant workers. I remember the deaths of the many people who worked to contain the Chernobyl disaster.
From Elliots thread
A fracking sea coast reactor does anyone know sea water does to reinforced concrete? Is everyone Amateurs? Look at Chicago vs the West Cost we add salt to our roads we don’t have classic cars for a reason unlike Seattle and Portland!
Reinforced Steel means steel rebar in the concrete! Salt water damages that quick. How old is this reactor 70′s what its life span originally was maybe 30 years before add on modifications?
Almost every Reactor in America got the same Fracking Modifications!
Still Concrete cracks after 30 years never mind the cracks expected after the design limits pass! After an earthquake!
Steel Rebar under the reactor if cracks go under the reactor is my question and the question of every Nuclear Engineer who the Frack put a Reactor near the sea?
Amateurs!
we add salt to our roads in Illinois we don’t have classic cars for a reason unlike Seattle and Portland sea salt does the same thing s road salt to steel rebar.
Salt rust steel faster than regular water the Japanese tidal wave added salt to the water we would normally expect in the concrete of an old reactor. Even small hairline cracks not sealed by even great reactor Maintenance will cause damage salt water travels down rebar in concrete along the steel so the crack might end but the damage continues past the crack.
I’m guessing either the Japanese Elite class is lying to us or they like our own political elite don’t know shit about reactors!
Thank you, Bill. FDL has been the one place discussing this at any length and I for one am immensely grateful for the information being relayed here. On tv, ABC has been the most up to date, but even they this morning (Sunday) are only giving yesterday’s news in a repeat. Things have obviously progressed, and I would say that the weekend is no excuse when facing a horror of this magnitude.
Particularly your information about the exposure of rods in the second failed reactor and the use of plutonium are extremely worrying. Radiation is bad enough but weapons grade? Indeed my prayers this morning are with the brave people of Japan who are approaching these monsters and risking their lives in the effort. They are heroes of the highest magnitude of the term. I hope that the best minds can be employed in fighting this disaster threatening all of mankind. Manmade, it eclipses the tsunami threat in dimensions just as this earthquake eclipsed all others of recent events.
The blessing that New Zealand had for itself in the midst of its own smaller disaster was that there are NO nuclear power plants in that small country. Natural disasters are bad enough without this added horror.
Is this in any way a race against time? If they don’t get these reactor cores cooled within x number of hours or days, is there a point of no return, or is time now on their side, since they’ve had roughly 2 1/2 days (it’s after midnight in Japan) to get this under control?
Thanks, Bill. Keeping all of them in my Global Thoughts.
In my local thoughts, I’m glad to have seen your post here because I was having trouble posting a diary. Could be me or some glitches. But, knowing that you were able to post gave me the incentive to keep trying.
PS – I just dislike meltdowns, so much. Our poor world of people. Backups to the backups to the backups. Needed. We learned that from the BP disaster, didn’t we?
Have as good of a Sunday as you can, Bill.
How far is the radiation above normal from the plant and do we have independent verification?
I’m sure American Marines and their families are worried.
Bill, thanks for all the updates. You, David, Jim and others are scooping the press to death!
Let’s all hope that March goes out like a Lamb. I don’t feel much like flying a kite. :-(
Maybe there’s a job for you there.
What puzzles me is that there is no mention of the control rods. From what I am reading, it appears that the control rods in all the reactors have failed to shut down the reactions. While cooling still needs to be running, I am surprised that meltdown would occur if the control rods are functioning and had been dropped. That an earthquake could destroy the mechanical systems in all the reactors under concern is damning, in my opinion, anyway.
YES there is a race against time when exactly a meltdown happens if it hasn’t already is bad just how bad it will be? Thats anyone’s guess
Nuclear plant fuel is in no way “weapons grade”. I guess the consensus now is that there is some plutonium in the fuel mix in unit 3, though yesterday on Brad Blog someone emphatically said that their permit would not have allowed that.
Godspeed to those who enter the buildings to help contain further disaster.
This is what really wories me, TCU. Christine on ABC just gave us a look at a guy sitting in Tokyo airport with a handheld geiger counter – yesterday – okay, it said zero. What, they don’t have geiger counters out there on the 60 kilometer perimeter? Why aren’t we hearing about readings THERE? TODAY?
For crying out loud.
It more a race against the end state. Will they be able to cool the reactor core enough that it does not cause a catastrophic loss of containment.
The problem is they don’t really know exactly what is going on (i.e. how bad it is) at any given moment, and their options for dealing with it are not good either
What’s the time line? Is all lost at noon on Wednesday, if this isn’t under control by then? Just wondering how much time they have.
OK can a meltdown happen even if the control rods are in place seems to be your question? I thought I read they were in place before but that might have been propaganda are the control rods in place?
If so why are we having a meltdown? I assumed the cooling system was not enough to prevent one even if the control rods were in place but yes all assumptions should be challenged at times like this.
The report that the reactor workers have sustained a lethal dose of radiation tells the tale. No need to wonder anymore if this is dire.
Al Jazeers live blog (http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/asia/live-blog-japans-twin-disasters) reporting that another facility (Onogawa) 155 km north of Fukishima is showing high radiation levels. More “conflicting reports.”
I wonder how many nuclear scientists, executives, lobbyists, etc. are on-site.
I suspect that Obama was going to whore for Nuclear Energy (One from Obama’s kit bag of alternative energy solutions, see also: clean coal) in his recent speech, but this Japanese horror sideline that cheerleading – for a little while, anyway.
… it’s a big ocean …no need for precautions over here …
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/12/california-closely-monitoring-japan-nuclear-leak/
That is not the case. When a reactor is running it is very hot, but since that is what you want to generate steam, that is not a problem. When the control rods go in the fuel rods are still hot. Under normal conditions it takes around two days for the reactor to cool off.
Now when there is not enough water circulating the heat builds up and there is more steam which lowers the water level around the rods. The water is there to help keep the reaction moderated too. Without it you have more on going fission than is designed for and the rods heat up and start to melt.
I agree why aren’t we hearing geiger counter readings is a matter of great concern that worries me too. Any FDLers have any information from anywhere BBC, Al Jazeera you know someone not American News on this subject?
Its sad if I have to wait for Siun and her gorilla guides friends to get news about JAPAN and a General Electric Nuclear Reactor:(
Demi, what’s your problem? Perhaps I can help?
Everyone’s a whore to something. Even skeptics whore for negativity.
Just my sunday morning 2 cents.
In all the comment dialog from the last two days in FDL’s coverage (thanks Bill and all), what I take away is that when the earthquake happened, the plants went into automatic shutdown, dropping the control rods fulling engaged to stop the reaction.
The issue is that then the cooling system has to be maintained in order to bring the system to a full stop, and that takes time.
When the electric feed failed, and the generators failed to come up, the cooling pump systems were running on battery power, which I’ve read run 4-8 hours max (assuming battery maintenance was regularly performed).
Thus you end up with a condition where the core heat rises due to a lack of circulating cooling water, flashing some of that water to steam, which is vented, leaving less cooling water, and exposing the fuel–and control rods–to air, which increases the heat and melts the cladding around the fuel rods, increasing the heat and boiling more cooling water into steam, exposing more fuel and control rods, and so on in a negative feedback loop.
This is why the final step of pumping sea water into the core structure is happening.
Nobody who knows the science is on site unless actually paid to deal with this:) Next time use a snark tag like this /s
Thanks, sagesse. I live in California and I have been wondering about that.
Shaking head in disbelief that nuke plants could be built with such a disregard of disaster planning, esp after Kobe quake consequences. OTOH, not surprised at all.
Thank you for picking up this story and helping me to understand. There have been many conflicting reports. The threads at Firedoglake are really helpful.
I whore for attention Demi but I draw the line and say sorry when my facts turn out to be wrong. These whores for nuclear power are whores outside an AIDS clinic who don’t wear condoms.
Right. The lack of any mention of the control rods caught my attention immediately.
I worked around several reactors at Argonne National Labs in the late 50′s. Two were boiling water types, which were experimental at that time, called EBWR’s for Experimental Boiling Water Reactors. At that time, the robustness of the control rods were one of the major concerns for which testing was ongoing. Given the environment in which that these rods must operate, that they operate at all and especially when the reactor must be scrammed, caused much skepicism amoung many who worked there. One ear was always listening for the evacuation sirens!.
I liked working there (cutting edge and all that!) but was glad to get far out of harms way! At any rate, the job I had to do, while not at these reactors, also had radiation implications, which doubled my relief to be gone.
General Electric planning for our future/s
Bring good things to life.
Well, OK, so maybe it’s because the entire coastal area of Northern Japan is devastated and essentially unreachable. I understand the media–and everyone else that are not rescue and military workers–are not being allowed anywhere in the north.
So the TeeVee guy finds someone at the Tokyo airport and shoots a ‘cheap shot’ that will be perfect for a two second drop in on the news.
I’m thinking in terms of dealing with disaster, and the only coordination is going to be finding and saving people, and now evacuating people around the nuke plants.
Combined with the stonewalling going on by the Japanese government and we end up with zero information…
“A common denominator in every single nuclear accident — a nuclear plant or on a nuclear submarine — is that before the specialists even know what has happened, they rush to the media saying, ‘There’s no danger to the public.’ They do this before they themselves know what has happened because they are terrified that the public might react violently, either by panic or by revolt.”
~ Jacques Cousteau
I’ve been mainly lurking through the diaries regarding these plants (since I have little to add). But I wanted to chime in to thank you and FDL for the coverage.
I am just old enough to remember that we were told electricity generated thus would be “too cheap to meter.”
Technical mistake, Bill. U-235 has a half life of around 700 million years. The lifetime of Pu is much shorter than that (which is why there is not naturally occurring plutonium on Earth).
Pu is more toxic, though, and will have a different decay product chain. In principle, this will mean a different cool-down time for Unit 3 vs. Unit 1.
A nuclear reactor weighs how many tons and sits on how many feet of concrete?
After 30? or so years how many cracks in the concrete? then add in an earthquake to old concrete already stressed by the weight of a how many tons reactor?
Now I remember why I hate story problems!
Well the one thing that’s been bothering me for two days is the thought that if the power went down at the moment of the quake, and the control rods require a mechanism (motor or whatever) to drop into the core and stop the reaction, and the electricity is down, would they be fully dropped?
Probably, using the battery power, which means they are “only” dealing with the lack of cooling water circulation.
But it still makes me wonder.
The jet stream is pointing directly at Portland at the moment.
I wish I could tell you where I read it, but I don’t know. I’ve been reading a lot, like many of you, I’m sure. When the control rods are engaged, they don’t stop 100% of the heating. Six percent of the heating continues, which means without a cooling system it’s going to continue to heat up, albeit more slowly.
Solai Cool! where have you been Raven just showed a few days ago. Jane called him a paid troll so he left:( but he showed a few days ago!
I was worried about you.
Yes they are exactly like that. Some people draw the line somewhere. Some people won’t do anything and everything for the almighty dollar. The MOTUS are destroying the planet for money. Christ, you might think that someone like Obama with young children might have some goddamn principles for their sake, but you’d be wrong. I guess Sasha and Melia are going to live on Mars.
Yeah, I’ve noticed that. Doesn’t help cred of pols, officials, experts to do that. Means you don’t trust anything they say about anything at anytime.
I’m in mid-Hudson & theirs a nuke plant about 40 miles away, and, of course, road infrastructure that is completely inadequate to evacuate pop quickly in case of an emergency. They’ve been talking about closing it for years, but nothing ever gets done. We have had the “emergency test” announcement on TV every day since Jap. earthquake, though.
Heh. Just noticed that the FDL comment clock didn’t get sprung ahead.
“When Elephants Dance” – by Jack Welch
Lotta different ways of doing that kind of whoring, for sure.
Things!
Thanks! You know I knew that but still wrote it anyway because I was so focused on the toxicity.
Did a dairy on the latest Russian ship carried nuclear reactors got mocked:( I could have used that quote:)
Things Come Undone…….you, of all people know this
There was a news report of them loading the plutonium in the plant a while back I’ll look and see where it is.
Which depends on clean, debris free inlets from a relatively clean ocean. We are talking millions of gallons in short order.
Murphy says anything that can go wrong will go wrong at the worst possible moment in time*.
* exception noted for a fail safe nuclear program.
If I macro-manage the details, I’ll go nuts. But, thanks.
That’s what backup supplies are for. I understand that battery power is part of the backup, if generators are damaged.
Of course they know what sat water will do to both the structure and the reactor components. But they’re down to a choice between really bad and absolute disaster. Even if they succeed in preventing an uncontrolled meltdown, none of the reactors involved in this crisis will ever operate again, and there’ll be a years-long cleanup.
Thanks, Bill and others for your knowledgeable, clear explanations. It is very frightening.
Let me add a word of caution about being too hasty to condemn the Japanese government and scientists for what is sometimes contradictory information. Not only is Japan dealing with the aftermath of a horrific earthquake and tsunami, with tens of thousands dead, tens of thousands more homeless, with infrastructure to support people’s lives damaged or destroyed, and ALSO the nuclear problem.
It is probably nearly impossible for the Japanese officials to put out anything clear and coherent in this situation. And I suspect they are being fairly cautious about what they do release because they don’t want any more panic than probably is already happening.
Many kudos to FDL and Bill and the other experts among us.
Did Jane actually say that? Wow, I’m surprised. I always thought he was a good guy who was just a little too grumpy for my sensitive nature. Glad he came ’round, though. He’s got many friends here.
Obama feeds his kids Gulf Shrimp the guy has no limits on his whoring.
It is nearly impossible to say. Too many variables. How high is the temp? How high is the pressure? How much water can they get in? How much hydrogen vents? Does it explode? How high does the radiation in the control room get? How much power is there for control systems? Are they all still working?
We can’t know, and probably they can’t know if there is a drop dead line. Either the reactor cools, in which case things start to get better or it keeps getting hotter until there is a catastrophic failure and things get a lot worse. In general things should get better the longer the control rods are in and the reaction is damped down, but that is just a generality.
Bingo, Tom!
The U.S. Coast Guard, 24 hours after the platform blew and sank in the Gulf:
“No oil is escaping from the wellhead.”
The phenomenon of corporate ass-covering kicking in, instanter, with no regard for the truth, is generic. Always happens.
I read this as well. And just because you engaged the control rods doesn’t mean you stopped the heat from the reaction that was happening before you dropped the rods.
What you end up having to deal with, is:
1) The heat from the reaction you just stopped.
2) The 6% (apx) rising heat even when you fully engage the control rods.
3) The additional heat from exposed fuel rods if the cooling system fails and the rods are exposed (and the melting of the control rods because of that heat and lack of cooling).
Make sense?
Aren’t we all learning a lot around here? Whew!
This is really obnoxious. It’s been reported that this is a desperation measure, and that it means that they’ve given up on ever putting that reactor back in service.
It strikes me as really unlikely that you know more sitting on your ass wherever you are than the people working on the site do.
Just now watching workers in hazmat gear on Russia Today.
An hour late and a dollar short? It’s not the end of the world, but I hope they get an operating system that works better. Still, the coverage of events is good.
Ah, Murphy. Guess he’s always on the job, eh?
And we know the coastal sea is NOT clean at the moment, since a large tidal surge brings a lot of gunk with it, stirs it all up.
Hopefully, the Japanese Government is focussing heavily on evacuation/food/shelter strategem. Hopefully, they are as adroit as Fidel Castro is in this area of expertise.
It was not fun watching Joe Lieberman,
the would-be progressive / former Al Gore
running mate, probably the key linchpin
in burying the public option, platitude-
promoting nuclear power and pretending he
never heard of mass transit.
As to nuclear power safety, San Onofre and
Diablo Canyon are “old world” and would seem
to bear no relation to whatever was coming
from his mind this morning on “Face the Nation.”
http://sites.google.com/site/evernewecon
He made it pretty clear he wasn’t stayin’
REMAIN CALM. ALL IS WELL.
When they flood a reactor with sea water, they are giving up all hope of salvaging it. I suspect that they will simply seal it off with tons of concrete.
The relevant quote was:
Again, I have no idea if that is true.
Doesn’t Japan reprocess fuel? And doesn’t reprocessed fuel contain a percentage of plutonium?
Best Quote of the Hour!
Your right this is new plus the Credit Default Swap Market might melt down if they are honest?
The home insurer for Japanese homes and businesses in the area might go bust any businesses ruined because they are shut down because of radiation and has CDS and or insurance on it might go bust and take out the CDS and or insurance with it.
Unless the Japanese government steps in but that means either a much weaker Yen ( so don’t buy that Prius yet ) and or Japan stops buying our T-Bills in which case buy that Prius now.
Starbuck, control rods move the fuel rods up and down : up and out of coolant at startup or back into it for a shutdown. This assumes of course that there is constantly coolant to move heat away from the rods and out of the core. But the pumps to move the coolant failed and their back ups and the backups of that, too.
This is the problem. Coolant has to be there and circulating after a full scram and all the rods housed in the core or, the heat builds, flashing water to steam and pressure builds inside the system. As Bill pointed out, venting to relieve the pressure lowers the level of coolant and exposes the rods to a greater degree. This is why it’s so important to inject coolant into the system and keep it circulating, for at least a couple days. To keep rods submerged and heat removed.
“If nuclear power plants are safe, let the commerical insurance industry insure them. Until these most expert judges of risk are willing to gamble with their money, I’m not willing to gamble with the health and safety of my family.”
— Donna Reed
http://www.infowars.com/media-coverup-of-massive-chernobyl-event-underway-in-japan/
Hopefully he reconsiders and yes I admit he was grumpy Demi still he is my friend:)
Did Jane actually say that?
Thats what Raven said I seem to recall it but have not looked for the thread. If she said it well we all get angry but if she said it she should say sorry.
Bush and Obama never say, sorry, I was wrong, admit a mistake and that form of leader/Wormship has only led America to disaster.
When Obama decided to give billions and billions to the dead US nuclear industry was when I decided he was just playing liberals for suckers and cares more about the rich than give a damn about human life or democracy.
Obama is revolting whore, and a tool –and playing you for a fool!
“Licensing a nuclear power plant is in my view, licensing random premeditated murder. First of all, when you license a plant, you know what you’re doing–so it’s premeditated. You can’t say, “I didn’t know.” Second, the evidence on radiation-producing cancer is beyond doubt. I’ve worked fifteen years on it [as of 1982], and so have many others. It is not a question any more: radiation produces cancer, and the evidence is good all the way down to the lowest doses.”
— John Gofman
Cockroaches can survive a nuclear war I hear I did not know they were such good creatures though.
From previous discussions regarding the control rods.
When the plant is operating, the fission reactions between the fuel elements create the heat, which is transferred to the water => steam to drive the turbines.
As soon as the quakes started, the reactors automatically start shutdown. The control rods are pushed up (not down) in between all the fuel rods, thus interfering with the interactions between fuel elements, so the fission reaction mostly stops.
Assuming the grid connection was down when that started, the power to insert the rods would have come from the back-up diesel generators on site. These were apparently still operable after the quake, but were later rendered inoperable by the tsunami. But by then, the control rod insertions at all plants should have been, and reportedly were, complete.
However, even when the control rods are fully inserted, because of irradiation in the fuel rods/cladding, various isotopes continue to decay, releasing heat — not nearly as much as during fission/normal operation, but enough to continue raising the water temp unless the cooling system carries that heat away. Continued cooling slows down this residual heating, but it must be maintained.
When the backup generation failed, the main cooling system could no longer function. No power = no pumps. At that point, a fail-safe cooling system, which is driven by the steam the plant itself is still producing, can continue to push water through the reactor for cooling. However, this steam-driven system is controlled by batteries, and they ran out after several hours.
By then you either have to bring in mobile generators and somehow connect to a damaged plant, or more batteries and somehow replace the ones that are depleted, or . . .? What?
When the authorities tell us the “cooling water system has failed,” as they have now at two reactors, Units 1 and 3) at Daiichi and one or more reactors at other stations, that means that all the things they relied on to slow down and stop the residual heating from the core have failed. At that point, they are forced to consider sea water injections — how, we’re not sure.
At that point, knowing the corrosive effects of sea water, they’ve basically given up on saving the plant for future operations and are focused solely on preventing a worse catastrophe, by slowing the residual heating from depleting the cooling water, exposing the core and causing varying degrees of meltdown.
Um. My understanding for a long time is that control rods are “made of chemical elements capable of absorbing many neutrons without fissioning themselves.” (wiki)
The control rods are “nested” so they are between the fuel rods.
When fully engaged, they reduce the fission reaction to zero. When fully away, the allow full fission of the fuel.
At that time, the robustness of the control rods were one of the major concerns for which testing was ongoing
Ok so no or minimal water how much time do they have? I realize we don’t have that information, can’t trust the MSM or the government to give us the right information and the gauges for water pressure are probably toast.
But we still need that information or else we need geiger counter readings.
Could all these plant failures be from debris choked intakes, something about outgoing trash, in the cooling systems loops ?
I suppose the US Model for Insurance is similar in most developed nations. Major Insurance Players made themselves too big to fail via Corporate Welfare Programs like Reinsurance, State and Federal Pools, FEMA, National Flood Insurance, pawning off high risk on the State, huge premiums, deductibles and co-payments, generally sucking up profits for the last hundred years. Enough to buy all the legislation necessary to wash rinse and repeat – the profit sucking machine they created. Next up – Tort Reform and State Funded Hurricane Liability.
I don’t know what it’s like in Japan, but you can bet that the rich have insulated themselves similarly. The working class people will foot the bill.
When Congresswoman Giffords was shot in the head, I was sure they’d make some changes to our Wild West gun laws. They didn’t. Some states went even further.
That was the canary in the coal mine for me. The special interests with the cash rule, even if it means they might get gunned down.
Anyone deluding themself that US nuclear power or the 50 billion in taxpayer welfare might slow down isn’t facing reality. The entire nation of Japan could be wiped out from radiation sickness, and our elected elites will continue their whoring path at warp speed. Radioactive dust could kill half the population of California and they’d lie and deny. They’re utter scoundrels to the bitter end.
Murphy was an optomist!
Harvey Wasserman on Russia Today describes situation as “very bad.” They are reporting trouble at another site as well. “Six potential meltdowns.”
Pushed up? Not using gravity to aid in the scram? That makes no sense. But then, my knowledge is from 1958 or so, and may be rather hazy!
This unfortunate incident will require tens of millions of dollars in increased lobbying and campaign contributions in order to maintain a sensible perspective on the low cost, safety and green nature of nuclear power. That in turn will require significan increases in public utility rates to maintain financial stability and executive compensation in the industry.
The Nuclear industry I don’t think will be hiring much after this:)
I was going for Snark:)
They can never admit a mistake, so they keep making them.
I wonder about all these elites saying they are amassing $$$ for their heirs when all their heirs will inherit is the irradiated wind… right along with the rest of us
RT_com RT
Emergency at Onagawa nuclear plant, radiation 700 times over normal http://bit.ly/dRnUcj #news #japan #tsunami #fukushima
Choked where? I believe these are closed systems. But we don’t know anything about what’s been damaged by the quakes.
My father spent the last 30 years of his life focused on ending the nuclear madness. A soliloquy he gave hundreds if not thousands of times went something like this:
“The sun is the safest nuclear reactor. It is ideally located at 93 million miles from the earth, and its power is distributed worldwide.”
He long predicted the earth would be finished in 2013, but he revised this to 2012 when he learned of the Mayan calendar’s end point.
He is losing sleep in his grave today.
Yeah, perfect. You know GE, Goldman, and all the other devil’s spawn are already working overtime in all the ways to cash in on this one.
Bill, John, and everyone reporting on this – thank you so much.
Thoughts, prayers and much love to the braves souls at work trying to save our asses…
Remember, this is a 1960s design for a plant that went operable about 1971. And whocoodanode that all the electrical systems would fail?
==edited by mod== my dad designed the structure of the Quad cities nuke plant. I know more from his talking about the job than anyone on the news now.
If I am wrong about concrete rebar rusting faster in salt water please provide a link.
This is FDL back up your accusation or I will insist the mod Laugh at You.
( I think the Mods need a laugh at a reply type comment) just to let people know FDL prints stuff but does not endorse it.
I wonder if the world of CDS hit Japan if so we might see a CDS meltdown
Does anyone else think the currently operating nuclear reactors in CA should be closed immediately before the same sort of disaster occurs, since I believe that there are four of them built on faults same as the reactors in Japan which are in trouble?
Harvey Wasserman goes on to say that these plants should have never been built in the first place.
Absolutely. That’s been my sentiments from the get go. Remember all the covering up Obama did about BP? I expect no less from him on this.
Team Obama’s biggest worry is how to downplay the dangers of nuclear power so investors are protected. Gotta make sure they
keep on filling his campaign coffer.
Mod let me be clear comments like this are why I liked the old system where all new comments appeared at the end of a thread better I almost missed this..
Then is is based on the technology which was being tested at Argonne and others. That indeed is worrisome.
At one point we were testing liquid sodium as a coolant. Had an accident where a line broke and the liquid sodium escaped, generating NaOH. Peeled the paint off all the cars in the adjacent parking lot!
Well, hind sight is twenty/twenty. And Mr. Wasserman has always been a nuclear power skeptic.
That is a scary link, especially at the end where we are told that spent fuel is stored at the top of the reactors – that is insane.
Mark, difference is in terminology only. Oh but you’re right I said fuel rods move. They don’t. We had what we called control rod drive mechanisms. The reactor core is made up of lots of elements as you say. What we called ‘poisons’ absorbed particles released by fission. To start, one pulls the control rods so that more fission can occur. To stop you reinsert or drop the rods to absorb the particles caused by fission. In any event coolant has always to be there.
With even a partial meltdown there will be the slurry – lobster called it corium last night- that would further impede coolant potentially and also be less effective in absorbing the particulate resulting from continuing fission.
My point was in trying to clear up the confusion about so many rods and explain the problem is lack of coolant, not control of rods.
The media and nuclear energy cartel are doing their darnedest to minimize the dangers–just a little iodine will fix that radioactive thyroid, baby! Fact is, it’s a DISASTER that will affect the world for thousands of years. Not fixable when fucked which is why nuclear should never be an option.
Just got back from Spicewood. I learned a couple of things.
First: My friend in Nihon has been in touch with his mom and apparently Ehime Prefecture is fairly unscathed as it’s on the inner side of Shokoku, across a strait from the southern end of Honshu, near Hiroshima.
Second: I can still party all night and not wind up in a hospital.
Can’t agree with that 100%. FISSION should never be an option which is why we should be spending that money researching fusion. It’s comparatively clean and most importantly, you have to work hard to keep a fusion reaction going. All it takes to shut it down is to stop feeding it and it will shut down in milliseconds.
Actually fission is what I meant. I don’t think fusion would ever be commercially viable and therefore not in the picture.
I think you’re over stating that. No question it is a disaster. And while a release of plutonium would be bad it would not be world wide bad.
One of the reasons that Chernobyl was so bad was that it burned and sent plums of radioactive material up into the atmosphere. This is not happening at Fukushima.
why even spent fuel rods and assemblies are kept in cooling ponds… indefinitely
What really obnoxious is people doubting me without even bothering to try to disprove me.
Good to hear that your friends are okay!
You got on the ground intel? Can your friend get a geiger counter?
Yet.
The last time I tried, I found myself asleep on the couch in the morning with a towel over the lampshade on my head. (Time for bed, little birdie.) I quit after that. But I’ve got a couple of years on you, Miss.
Absolutely wrong. If properly funded and developed, fusion would be very economical and safe. There are many engineering challenges but there were engineering challenges to flight, the Brooklyn Bridge, Landing on the Moon, the voyager spacecraft, ALL of which had one thing in common: There were a whole lot of people like you who said they would never work. Never is a long time and it’s too long a word for me.
Sorry I misled you with that description – I only meant that it increased the severity of the radiation, was a metaphor not a statement of fact. Here’s what was in Scarecrow’s Saturday night thread on the subject:
******
earlofhuntingdon March 13th, 2011 at 12:43 am «
Per independent nuclear energy consultant (and “former head of nuclear campaigns at Greenpeace”), Shaun Burnie, interviewed by the Guardian:
[T]he presence of a percentage of fuel core loaded with plutonium MOX fuel in the No. 3 reactor posed a grave threat to the surrounding area.
“Plutonium MOX fuel increases the risk of nuclear accident due the neutronic effects of plutonium on the reactor….In the event of an accident – in particular loss of coolant – the reactor core is more difficult to control due to both neutronics and higher risk of fuel cladding failure.
“In the event of the fuel melting and the release of plutonium fuel into the environment, the health hazards are greater, including higher levels of latent cancer.”
*******
That’s a better way of putting it – entire thread is well worth a sober read.
Good Point.
Ehime is nowhere near Myagi but ironically, he got transferred to Ehime from Myagi just last year. Myagi Ken in fact, where he would have been front and center. Yikes!
Doesn’t Japan reprocess fuel? And doesn’t reprocessed fuel contain a percentage of plutonium?
Crap and I thought I was a pessimist!
My 15 year old daughter was just asking nabout their lifestyle and standard of living. She wanted to know how long it will take them to clean up and get back to normal. I told her that nobody knows, but it probably won’t happen for at least a generation. She’s on her way to church and said she’ll pray for them this morning.
Yes, I think they should be shut down.
Still doing okay but very much considering lighting a backfire against my hangover… I even drove for two hours this morning to come home, no problem but I did stop and get a couple of breakfast tacos to load up on the carbs and protein.
Financial Services Berkshire, AIG May Face Japan Quake Loss: Analyst
By Maria Woehr 03/11/11 – 10:13 AM EST
NEW YORK (TheStreet) — The U.S. insurers with the greatest exposure to the Japanese earthquake and resulting tsunami are likely Berkshire Hathaway(BRK.B_), American International Group(AIG_) and Chubb Group(CB_), said Sandler O’Neill + Partners’ analyst Paul Newsome.
American International Group could face more exposure than it did last quarter after recently purchasing the remaining shares of Fuji Fire and Marine Insurance Co. for 47 billion yen ($571 million) to bolster its Japanese insurance business.. AIG’s Chartis recorded a catastrophe loss in the fourth quarter of 2010 of $139 million, according to its 10K.
“WASHINGTON — As Japan braces for the possibility of a nuclear meltdown, Sens. Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell said on Sunday morning they are still open to expanding nuclear power capabilities in the United States.”
at Huffington Post.
Do they simply not care about what happens to people?
To make those statements on Sunday morning, in the middle of an ongoing tragedy in Japan is uncalled for, sirs.
Exactly! The feedback loop controlling fission is a positive feedback loop, leading to instability and total destruction. That is the #1 reason I have not been any champion of these kinds of power generation. The task to overcome the downside is too great, too complex. And yet the first task is to arrange the system so that it doesn’t go supercritical and explode, but generate enough heat to produce power.
It’s bass ackwards, imo.
IF properly funded is the rub. We won’t properly fund education, do you really think we’ll fund fusion? All of those achievements you mention took place quite some time ago. The world had a very different ethos and mindset. Now, it’s all about the bottom line. Millions suffering from radiation poisoning means absolutely nothing to the powers that be.
Default Swaps on Insurers AIG, Ace, XL Capital Jump After Japan …
1 day ago
By Mary Childs – Fri Mar 11 22:19:48 GMT 2011 Credit-default swaps on AIG rose by the most since November, adding 8.5 basis points to 185.7 basis points. …Bloomberg –
, AIG May Face Japan Quake Loss: Analyst – TheStreetMar 11, 2011 … US insurers that will most likely report the most losses from the Japanese earthquake will be Berkshire Hathaway, Chubb and American …
http://www.thestreet.com/…/berkshire-aig-may-face-japan-quake-loss-analyst.html – Cached
yup.
Fukushima is unlikely to burn. It is a completely different style of reactor. IIRC Chernobyl was a graphite moderated instead of water moderated reactor. It was the graphite the burned and sent plumes of radioactive ash out from the plant. The water at the Japanese reactors is not going to burn.
The reactor buildings are concrete as you’ve been pointing out this morning, they will crumble (eventually) but they won’t burn either.
Still close enough for geiger counter readings after all you can’t trust the media or the government. IF Ehime can get a geiger counter and drive or take train as close as he/she can get to the reactor to see when it first goes off.
Well I think you both might have a Pulitzer.
kspopulist, your comment about the pumps failing reminds me of the huge pumps protecting New Orleans from Lake Champlain. The heart of the matter seems to focus on pumps.
I assume they are well paid not to care by banks making loans to the nuclear industry.
Do they simply not care about what happens to people?
Fusion requires the core temp to be that of the sun, or very close. Getting it contained with materials that withstand these temps, even using some sort of containment field is challenging indeed! People in my group at Argonne were working on a method to do so, but it never worked, and could not, it turns out.
ADC14: Again, “never” is too long a word for me. The MOTU today aren’t going to be the MOTU in the future and that’s just a fact. I guess it’s easy to look at things as static in a short human lifespan, (even an ancient person is just a fleeting spark across the span of history), but the fact is that things aren’t static at all. 250 years ago there wasn’t a United States of America. !20 years ago, maned flight was impossible. 45 years ago, humans hadn’t landed on the moon. 15 years ago this pleasant conversation wasn’t possible and last week northeastern Honshu’s infrastructure was the envy of the world.
Boiling water reactors resemble the steam pressure cookers with which some of y’all might be familiar, assuming you’re not too old to remember dem golden olden days. Probably the most critical fail-safe mechanism is the steel alloy containment structure that houses the inner core of the reactor. It was designed and built to remain hermetically sealed no matter what happens inside or outside it, and my biggest concern is whether these 40 and 30 year-old structures, which likely were constructed by a minimum bid operation (yes, I’m looking at you GE) are up to the task.
The quake has been officially upgraded from 8.9 to 9.0, which is a doubling of its power and intensity, as the increase is logarithmic and each 0.1 increase doubles in strength. Add the aftershocks, the tsunamis, the failure of the several layers of redundant cooling mechanisms (they have played their last card, which is to pump in seawater), the explosion outside the containment vessel but inside the cement building, and the extent of metal fatigue (assuming there is any) to the hopefully still hermetically sealed containment vessels, I cannot help but wonder if, as Scotty used to say on Star Trek, “Cap’n, she can’nah take no more.”
We don’t really know what’s going on inside those steel alloy supposedly hermetically sealed containment vessels, despite what Japanese officials are telling their people and the world. We do know what the vessels are designed to do, but they are old and have been subjected to multiple levels of stressors far beyond what their designers contemplated. That and the government’s evacuation of 160,000 to 200,000 people from the area within 20 to 30 Km of the reactor sites, plus handing out potassium iodide pills and not really being very forthcoming about reporting radiation levels, constitutes legitimate cause for concern.
Yes, I am concerned. Extremely fucking concerned.
Yeah, I’ll encourage my friend to go into a disaster area and use resources the victims need and possibly shorten his life due to accident, radiation poisoning or threat of robbery. Let me email him…
/s
The thing I have been wondering about since this nuclear crisis started is this: the Japanese, more than any people in the world, know the horror of radiation unleashed. Why, then, did they take nuclear power into their country so readily? I know the difference between bomb grade and power grade and all that…that’s not what I’m saying…I’m saying that after Hiroshima and Nagasaki it looks like the people of Japan wouldn’t want anything at all to do with radioactive anything. I wonder, did the US push this on them and then their own greedheads agree?
Hermetically sealed is an oxymoron.
They use tons of water out of the closed loop, No?
Otherwise they wouldn’t be located on water sources.
Clean water pumps are different than trash water pumps and can move much more water.
Right now we are all neck deep in the big muddy…..
Oh God
Ditto, thanks lobster. The quote I posted above from the Greenpeace scientist mentioned ‘cladding’ and that “different decay product chain” as well – does that mean more heat is generated 6 percentwise in such a mixture as posited for that second problem reactor than happened in the first explosion?
Especially in Japan because of the frequent earthquakes.
Yeah, I’ll encourage my friend to go into a disaster area and use resources the victims need and possibly shorten his life due to accident, radiation poisoning or threat of robbery. Let me email him…
/s
You might be surprised at his reaction Men will do anything to be a hero it impresses the ladies.
The Japanese are even more wonderful with respect to cleanup and beautification than my folks in New Zealand are, and that’s saying something. They don’t leave a corner of a building unswept or unlovely. It’s how they are. Tell your 15 year old that is already underway; even as they look for their loved ones and contain as best they are able the nuclear disaster, it is happening.
It’s my understanding the Mayan calender only has a “period” ending in 2012, then another starts. Like Dec. 31/Jan. 1 Every calender cycles. I think the 2012 end of world was Hollywood B.S. Sorry no links handy
Yes, I know. I should have place the word, hermetically, in quotes to so indicate. Thanks for pointing that out.
Probably plus their own greed heads probably don’t know shit about concrete, nuclear power etc just like our elite.
“it would not be world wide bad.”
Is that a fact or supposition ?
Does plutonium respect boarders ?
Because there wouldn’t be a numerical link to an increase in lung cancer deaths doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
I read one Molecule of plutonium can cause lung cancer, who knows where their killer molecule originated ?
dar..dar eerrgg!
“A cooling system pump at Japan’s Tokai No. 2 nuclear power plant has stopped, Kyodo News reports, citing the fire department. The power station is located in the village of Tokai in Ibariki prefecture. On Saturday, a failure in a cooling system led to an explosion at Fukushima No.1 power plant, sparking fears of a nuclear meltdown in tsunami-devastated Japan.”
Russia Today
Many years ago i was cooking some chicken in a pressure cooker. I started with too little liquid. the device superheated and blew the lid off. It broke in two pieces. There was shredded chicken all over the kitchen and the semi circular dents in the kitchen ceiling remain to this day.
For those who wouldn’t know, after 40 years on a 30 design system the metal is extremely brittle from exposure of elements in the “containment” structure.
These are old wine skins so to speak.
Japan imports pretty much ALL of their oil.
What other choice did they really have?
For one thing, Japan is a first-world economy that has practically no domestic energy sources. Their options were limited. Even today, it would be problematic to convert to renewables (probably wind and wave, since they are islands).
I am increasingly afraid that the area of these reactors will be a permanent sacrifice zone, at least until rising sea levels cover them and disperse their radioactive substances around the world.
However, that does not mean that we are at risk of injecting Cesium or Iodine into the high atmosphere from this disaster, as happened at Chernobyl. This is simply a different sort of disaster, and it will play out differently.
It is a question of the if and how much plutonium escapes. Right now, exactly zero has been detected. None. If some does escape, there is also the issue of how a very heavy and dense element is transported away from the site.
Yes, plutonium is very dangerous. But even if there is a catastrophic loss of containment that does not automatically mean it will be distributed world wide.
This is what a Hero is, not some General on a white horse waving a sword. Or the first responders at the WTC, or any fireman who runs into a fire to rescue people when regular people would run away.
Here’s your answer: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Translation: the need to rebuild their country after the devastation of WWII, in order to re-industralize, and the need to generate more electrical power than available through traditional methods like hydroelectric dams to power that development, and last but not least, neo carpet-baggers all gussied up as profit lusting capitalists armed with “modern” investment vehicles (i.e., corporations) selling the wonders of cheap so-called “fail safe” nuclear power out of both sides of their mouths with their fingers crossed behind their backs.
I’m gonna cut to the chase: I know next to nothing about reactors. I do know enough to be VERY effin’ concerned. I’m a thousand yards from the coast in Wa. and I have a two year old son. The virtual blackout in the MSM regarding the status of the Japanese plants has my sirens screaming and all my emergency alert systems blaring. I love FDL, but I don’t usually come here for breaking news. It seems (at least here) that this is where I have been able to get information on this crisis.
The following question is beyond the usual ken: When should I stick my wife and child into the car and tell them to drive East? How fucking far is far enough? I know better than to wait for the government of the Corporate States of Amerikkka to tell me when it’s not safe….
I was hoping somebody here could a) direct me to some source of streaming news about this emergency, and b) give me some idea of the timeline for the arrival of radiation on the West Coast. It is clear no information will be forthcoming regarding the scale of the releases….ever. I feel the prudent thing to do would be to isolate those most at risk in my family inasmuch as I am able. Please, I want to be able to get as prepared as we can before splitting for points East and some timeline seems critical…Help?
…and I mourn those poor souls who went to work just the other day unaware that this shift would never end, and be the last of their lives.
Sounding like a broken record here, but the coverage of the nuclear crisis at the lake has been fab. Thanks wise diarists and knowledgeable commanders.
But the owners/operators of that plant (Entergy, IIRC) have no shortage of money to buy ads on Yankees radio broadcasts, touting how clean and safe energy is essential to ‘murca. They never, as I recall it, say “nuclear”, but they do talk about how vital Indian Point is.
And Wasserman was right.
Sorry got cut off:
“Licensing a nuclear power plant is in my view, licensing random premeditated murder. First of all, when you license a plant, you know what you’re doing–so it’s premeditated. You can’t say, “I didn’t know.” Second, the evidence on radiation-producing cancer is beyond doubt. I’ve worked fifteen years on it [as of 1982], and so have many others. It is not a question any more: radiation produces cancer, and the evidence is good all the way down to the lowest doses.”
– John Gofman
“If nuclear power plants are safe, let the commerical insurance industry insure them. Until these most expert judges of risk are willing to gamble with their money, I’m not willing to gamble with the health and safety of my family.”
– Donna Reed
Lol. Commenters. F’ing autocorrect.
Surprise, surprise: Senators Mitch McConnell & Chuck Schummer still favor nuclear power, according to what they told Fox Snooze, as does Obama obviously, and I’m certain that nothing short of a non-violent revolution that removes them and the rest of the corrupt neoliberal profits-first people from government will derail the effort to inundate Excelon with taxpayer money to build more nuclear plants in the US, regardless of the outcome of the situation in Japan.
Just like Obama authorizing relicensing BP to drill in deep water in the GOM after the catastrophic Macondo well blowout.
Chernobyl was a graphite-moderated reactor – a fire waiting to happen. These Japanese reactors are water-moderated, a lot harder to make burn (though not impossible, as the hydrogen explosion made clear).
Some recent tweets from Steve Herman, VOA Bureau Chief from Seoul:
================
Kyodo now reporting issues at yet another Japan nuke power plant — this one in Tokai where FD says cooling system pumps have stopped. less than a minute ago via TweetDeck
# Estimated final quake/tsunami death toll for Japan, based on various officials’ comments, varies now between 3,000 and 10,000+. about 1 hour ago via TweetDeck
# Yonhap: South Korea redirected some incoming shipments of LNG to Japan to help address potential energy shortages. about 4 hours ago via TweetDeck
# US State Dept.: U.S. citizens should avoid travel to #Japan at this time. about 4 hours ago via TweetDeck
Reuters: France urges its citizens to leave Tokyo – http://reut.rs/gdkQ1z about 4 hours ago via TweetDeck
# Kyodo: Rolling blackouts in Japan might continue through end of next month. about 5 hours ago via TweetDeck
# It’s M6.0 at depth of 10km. about 5 hours ago via TweetDeck
# Miyagi, Yamagata, Fukushima strongest hit by this latest aftershock. about 5 hours ago via TweetDeck
Sorry, msmolly but I completely disagree!
Now is the perfect time to blame ALL of these plutocracys disgusted as representative governments – Japan’s and the US- and the industry shill scientists who have traded life for a culture of death and destruction which puts human life last and profits and rich people first. Otherwise, you are just a tool for these powers of evil.
“As a doctor, as well as a mother and a world citizen, I wish to practice the ultimate form of preventive medicine by ridding the earth of these technologies that propagate disease, suffering, and death.”
– Helen Caldicott
Indeed. I don’t see much of any reason to look elsewhere for information. Our crack experts at FDL are on the case.
They are cowards that believe in the political ease and convenience of the status quo versus the more difficult task of principled leadership which would involve taking some risk.
Why take a risk today when you can defer the heavy lifting to your children?
Expert: Nuclear Radiation Could Spread Far Beyond Japan
Michael Bowman | Washington March 13, 2011
* Japan Continues Rescue Operations Following Massive Quake, Tsunami
* Nuclear Emergency Adds to Japan Disaster Woes
* US Nuclear Experts Worry About Possible Japan Reactor Meltdown
An American nuclear expert says radiation from Japan could spread across the Pacific and reach the United States if a complete meltdown occurs at a Japanese nuclear facility damaged as a result of last week’s earthquake and subsequent tsunami.
Nuclear expert Joseph Cirincione of the Ploughshares Fund says Japan’s nuclear crisis is in a critical phase.
“One of the [Japanese] reactors has had half the core exposed already. This is the one they are now flooding with seawater in a desperate effort to prevent a complete meltdown.”
Cirincione spoke on the Fox News Sunday television program. He said the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant on Japan’s northeast coast is one of at least three nuclear facilities at risk.
Japan has evacuated civilians from areas surrounding the troubled plant, but Cirincione says radiation could spread far beyond Japan if efforts to contain the crisis fail.
“The worst-case scenario is that the fuel rods fuse together – temperatures get so hot that [they] melt together into a radioactive molten mass that busts through the containment mechanisms. So they spew radioactivity into the ground, into the air, into the water. Some of that radioactivity could carry in the atmosphere to the west coast of the United States.”….
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/usa/Expert-Nuclear-Radiation-Could-Spread-Far-Beyond-Japan-117899079.html
looking downthread at 4cdave’s updates make Senators McConnell and Schummer’s statements seem even more insensitive.
Hi darkcycle. Let’s think this through. Japan is something like 5,000 miles away from you. If there is a significant radiation release (and believe it or not, this is still unlikely on a scale remotely similar to Chernobyl because of the differences between a light-water reactor and a graphite-moderated reactor) and if the radiation plume travels that 5,000 miles to you, then you would not be able to move far enough away while staying in the US. That is, the farthest you could move would be a couple of thousand miles, which would be small compared to the distance the plume had already traveled.
That might scare you, but it should not.
At this point, with seven reactors in trouble, the infrastructure wiped out, tens of thousands citizens killed, one reactor having suffered an explosion and another likely to explode within a few hours, there is still only a minute chance that there will be significant radiation fallout from this horrible event in the US. The differences between Chernobyl and this event are much greater than the similarities. Even the radiation plume from Chernobyl did not inflict mass casualties at 5,000 mile distances. You would be at much greater risk putting your family in a car and driving on an American highway than you would staying home.
The people who are in dire straits are in Japan.
kate_sheppard Kate Sheppard
EPRI paper: Quakes “have yet to cause a single significant safety incident at a nuclear power plant.” So much for that http://bit.ly/glHsKl
Twitter.
Probably the definitive source to understand the failures leading to the emergency and the likely results of those failures. Download and read this and pay special attention to the part concerning Station BlackOut (SBO).
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/purl.cover.jsp?purl=%2F205567-BJIEKT%2Fwebviewable%2F
Recent entry from the Scientific American snapshots news page: “International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) says the lowest state of emergency had been declared at a separate nuclear power plant north of the town of Sendai. But Japan’s nuclear safety agency says there has been a rise in radiation at the Onagawa facility due to leakage from the Fukushima plant and there was no problem with the cooling process there.”
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=snapshot-developments-after-major-j
It’s NOT the plant where the radiation was detected! It’s the one up the coast! Honest!
I’ll leave y’all with another observation.
Keeping in mind the ongoing crisis in Japan and their inability to even find the remains of two workers who vanished in the explosion at Fukushima Daiichi 1, no safe, affordable, and effective solution to dispose of nuclear waste exists and the same is true of the waste produced by our use of fossil fuels.
We humans are despoiling Gaia, our mother and the proverbial Garden of Eden, and choking off and killing all living things with the wastes generated by our use of fossil fuels and nuclear energy.
We need to stop it because we are running out of time. When and how we solve these problems are two problems that are vastly more important than all of the bullshit put together that our worthless elected representatives pose and squabble over.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. We need to go by the millions to Wall Street and Washington, DC, shut them down non-violently by refusing to leave until they resign and leave.
If not now, when?
BTW, Obama forced Department of State spokesperson PJ Crowley to resign today because he dared speak the truth about Bradley Manning’s torturous conditions of confinement at Quantico when he said it was “ridiculous, and counterproductive, and stupid.”
Our president now is a self-admitted and certifiable war criminal who will not tolerate anyone in his administration who disagrees with him.
Some tidbits from zerohedge (yes, I know, but they pull in news that other people miss):
The Tokai reactor (now reported to have had cooling failure) is a BWR built in 1978, Japan’s oldest operating reactor, 100 km from Tokyo.
Of course, that means some point in Tokyo, which is enormous. I imagine that’s in the burbs, somewhere.
Question no power so how are they spreading the sea water did they get back generators working or are they using firehoses from firetrucks? Obviously ussing the plants cooling system would be better not using the plants cooling system explains the continued worse news.
The effects on the world economy if we have a meltdown could trigger another deeper Depression.
Well, there’s the rub. No need for mass casualties to do damage, is there? Cancer rates are my primary concern here. I have a decision to make. I’m fifty. My risks from radiation exposure are minimal. My son on the other hand, is TWO. I’m not a total idiot, man, I have a PhD in Psychology and a BS that was in human biology. AND I was sterilized by a stupid x-ray tech that forgot to give me a lap pad while giving me a hip x-ray series. So soothing words aren’t needed. What’s needed are, and I’ll use all caps here is: A LINK TO A STREAMING SOURCE OF NEWS ON THIS DISASTER and A TIMELINE FOR THE (potential) ARRIVAL AT THE WEST COAST OF THE UNITED STATES. I do NOT need help making this decision! I NEED A TIMELINE to give me an idea how much time there is, DAMMIT!
So, my identical, unanswered plea goes out again.
Anyone who thinks we are getting the truth about the true state of things regarding Japan’s nuclear reactors is living in La-La Land. Based on the experience past disasters of this nature, I feel believing it is worse than being reported. Has plutonium escaped? Just because they say it hasn’t doesn’t mean a thing. Japan and the nuclear industry have a vested interest in minimizing the danger. Let’s not be naive here.
they can’t find the remains!? I didn’t hear that
Shinmoedake Volcano, on Kyushu Island, 950 miles from the 8.9 quake epicenter, has resumed eruptions.
Some volcano in Indonesia has erupted, and two in Kamchatka. Ring of Fire living up to its name.
linky
One of Indonesia’s most active volcanoes, Mount Karangetang, erupted Friday, sending lava and searing gas clouds down its slopes.
The eruption occurred hours after a devastating 8.9-magnitude earthquake hit Japan and triggered a Pacific-wide tsunami.
Tokai is a short trip from Tokyo. Here’s the map:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Tokai&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl
Wiki says this is not the first plant, but a second plant that went on-line in 1978, built at the location of the first. It’s a boiling water reactor and considering it’s age, 1970′s, probably using the same technology as the other reactors that are in trouble.
BTW, here’s a cool map of where all the nuke plants are in Japan:
http://www.nucleartourist.com/world/japan.htm
And Crowley wasn’t disagreeing with the idea of jailing a whistleblower, he was merely disagreeing with the idea of torturing him. THAT is what caused CoS Daley to say “He’s done”.
http://my.firedoglake.com/teddysanfran/2011/03/13/bill-daley-on-pj-crowley-after-obama-presser-hes-done/
By the way, nuke plants — even with tens of billions in Federal subsidies over the past fifty years — still aren’t anywhere near viability, much less being “too cheap to meter”.
http://www.nuclearpowerdaily.com/reports/After_50_Years_Nuclear_Power_Is_Still_Not_Viable_Without_Subsidies_999.html
What’s really tragic about that interview is alleged nuclear experts like Joe Cirincione spreading fear and lying. I think Joe Cirincione has a bright future as a politician. He’ll probably be either a Republican or Democrat, same difference.
The first plant (same site) is being decommissioned. Oldest operating plant.
What you are looking for does not exist. Here are places where I have found good information:
WNN
BradBlog (mostly for fresh links to news)
Scientific American
BBC
Union of Concerned Scientists (especially click through to the “All Things Nuclear blog”.
Kyodo News service (has had most of the breaking details and has been right each time)
The Guardian
In a situation like this, there is a tendency to distrust authoritative sources. The sites above have so far (in my experience) provided correct factual information promptly. If you cannot trust people who have technical knowledge (and I understand that), then you are in a bind.
I believe the threads here at FDL have been useful for pulling out what has to be true from what might be true, without going too far down the road of what is theoretically possible but highly unlikely. YMMV.
x2
According to Google Maps, the Omagawa Nuclear Reactor is located on the coast 110 miles north of the Fukushima I reactor. If there is a high level of radiation at Onagawa and it’s wind borne from Fukushima 1 in the south, that suggests to me a much higher level of radiation at Fukushima 1 than we have been led to believe.
Comments?
Discussion of MOX (which contains plutonium) vs. conventional uranium fuel:
No, you were right first time. Now stand by for further orders.:-)
This pair of posts is about the reported use of MOX fuel at Daiichi Unit 3.
The issues of “reactor control” described in my post of 11:45 AM are not particularly relevant, because all the reactors have currently been successfully shut down, though such issues could become relevant again if the partial meltdown proceeds and there is further bad luck.
The damage to reactor parts bullet is also pretty irrelevant at this point — these reactors have already been trashed.
The last three points are the interesting ones. I do not yet know enough to characterize how important they might be. I’m still digging…
Beware the ides of march.
Yes, according to World Nuclear News.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/print.aspx?id=29621
The last point sounds like it might take longer for the reactor to cool after shutdown. I suppose it would depend on the actual mix of isotopes produced.
Thank you. That’s close enough. BTW, let’s look at what the industry experts have said was “safe” in my lifetime:
Asbestos in everything from insulation to sleepwear and clothing.
DDT in huge amounts, sprayed not on fields, but in occupied residential neighborhoods to control mosquitoes
PCBs
literally hundreds of carcinogenic aromatic solvents
Thalidomide
let’s just add here, nuclear power,
and the fact that “safe” levels of radiation when I was five were an order of magnitude higher than they are now…I could type for the next hour and not run out of examples.
So this “tendency to distrust authoritative sources” ….I have seven years of psychology training and sixteen years of practical experience with human nature. This tendency to distrust is based on an authoritative source: I’m telling you here and now, humans are self serving first, greedy second, and terrified of assuming responsibility for their own actions third. In that order. Altruism comes so far down the scale that it doesn’t even count. That’s why I’m taking what are to me reasonable precautions. We were leaving for Cincinatti on Thursday anyway, so it’s my fervent hope that’s soon enough. That’s my authoritative last word.
I agree, but I’m no economist. I predicted (elsewhere) on Saturday morning that the price of oil would initially rise b/c of the nuclear situation. Instead, oil prices are so far falling b/c of expectations of a slump in demand.
I am a physics professor so I can understand simple things like nuclear reactions reasonably well. Predicting what people will do is well outside my skill set.
From linky
Operations to relieve pressure in the containment of Fukushima Daiichi 3 have taken place after the failure of a core coolant system. Seawater is being injected to make certain of core cooling, but two separate malfunctions are hampering efforts.
… Tepco has reported it has not been able to restart unit 3′s high pressure injection system after an automatic stop. This left the reactor without sufficient coolant … Tepco manually vented the containment between 8.41am and 9.20am on March 13 … minute quantities of radioactive materials are released …
Injection of fresh water mixed with boron to inhibit nuclear reactions was started as soon as venting had been completed. However, water levels continued to fall and Tepco began an operation to inject seawater into the reactor vessel.
… while initially the water level had risen, a gauge indicated that this had leveled off, despite ongoing seawater injection … a malfunctioning gauge means that water levels cannot be confirmed. Meanwhile, pressure in unit 3 has been gradually rising and this would need to be relieved, Edano said, warning that the vent valve in unit three was showing signs of failure
Those third to the end and the last of the points also might explain how the reactor went critical when it seemed to be OK before…it’s got a tighter envelope of potential issues and potential failure–where the UOX (did I get that right?) takes awhile to get hot enough to be critical, the NOX plant could get there faster after losing cooling water supply. Ouch.
The level reported at the Onagawa station was very small and momentary. I do not have the numbers in front of me, but if the reporting limit was 10 mSv then the finding was 20 mSv. Within a few minutes, it went back below the required reporting limit. The reporting limit in Japan is very conservative from a health perspective because of past nuclear experiences.
So it is not yet clear to me how much radiation is being released from the Fukushima reactors. Someone knows — they have Geiger counters. We don’t know. I would like to know!
A person who represents himself to be a nuclear safety expert and who tweets as @arclight told Brad Friedman yesterday that he doesn’t believe irradiated MOX fuel is being used at the reactors. See the 6:58 om entry reported at bradblog.
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8391#more-8391
Talk about your perfect storm.
edit: that’s 6:58 pm.
Not sure traipsing around a melting down nuclear facility looking for people already dead is the best idea.
Here is my rudimentary understanding of why they are venting.
Because of previous failures, the fuel assembly became hotter that it should be. This boiled off too much the cooling water. This process feeds on itself (less water -> less cooling -> more heat -> more boiling… rinse, lather, repeat until you run out of water).
Boiling water in a sealed system increases the pressure.
To get more water into the system, they either need power (which is not available because of the tsunami) or they need to get the system down to lower pressures so that they can use low-power systems to replace the water that has boiled away.
This means you have to open vents, but this isn’t easy because the whole system can be under reasonably high pressure, even in a BWR. To operate a vent, you have to know if it is open or closed, and you probably cannot go take a look; you need a sensor to tell you. You also need to be able to read off the pressure from pressure gauges to know what is going on. Finally, you need to know how much water is in there, moment by moment.
It is really impressively bad news that the chain of failures now seems to include the instrumentation (water gauge, maybe also pressure gauges b/c of the explosion) and the vent assemblies. There are some heros working and sacrificing themselves right now. Despite the cruel comments above, most of those people are probably scientists and engineers.
When the politicians do start helping — and that has happened once? — other cruel people start making fun of them. Remember the Jimmy Carter mop-up skit from SNL, after he personally participated in the Chalk River cleanup?
Personally, I am glad there are extraordinarily knowledgeable people working onsite. Those individuals have been dealt really bad hands and they are so far holding it all together with Band-Aids and dental floss. Wow.
According to Wikipedia, Japan has two reprocessing plants.
As far as I can tell, the reactors have not gone critical since shutdown. This is so far a sequence of emergencies related to after heat. A major goal — and the reason that venting of radiation to the environment is allowed — is to prevent criticality. It won’t be a secret if the fuel goes critical again.
Note sure which plant you are referencing, but the above WRT Daiichi 3, and Daiichi 1 was the one that exploded.
Also, however strongly built, there is a limit to how much pressure the reactor vessel can take. Superheated steam can produce immense pressure. They have to vent it, regardless of trying to force new water in against it, or risk having the vessel rupture. It’s only as strong as its weakest weld or rustiest bolt.
If you read the pdf in the link from my previous post it might help. Salt water injection is a low pressure proccess and is very, very tricky. If the water is flooded into the reactor too rapidly it will cause a buildup of pressure (flash to steam) and the resulting pressure will prevent more water from entering and the vessel will need to have that pressure bled off (with all the resultant problems associated with that process) before more water can be added. Nasty problem.
Statement from the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission came out about half an hour ago:
The check is in the mail. Global warming isn’t real. Nuclear power is safe. Tax cuts create jobs and don’t explode the deficit. Trickle down economics is a fact. Evolution is not real, as the earth is only 5,000 years old. Obama was born in Kenya, or Indonesia. If peope were constantly in competition with each other, profit motive was their primary motivation, and everyone had a gun at all times with a 30 round clip, things would be so much better. We can’t afford single payer health care. Gay people shouldn’t be allowed to be married, as we have to protect the institution of marriage. America has the best health care system in the world. Deregulating the financial industry will create jobs than it will cost. America can’t be safe if it abides by international law or the US Constitution, allows people to defend themselves and access to attorneys, or didn’t torture/rendition.
Oh, and I won’t cum in your mouth.
Tune in next week for some more lies.
Japan nuclear blast could be more deadly than Chernobyl, experts fear [Ha'aretz]
Experts in Israel and abroad divided on scope of disaster at Japan’s nuclear plants, as Japanese government hasn’t provided accurate information regarding threat posed by explosions at Fukushima nuclear power plant.
By Yossi Melman
“Hebrew University Professor Menachem Luria, an expert on air quality and poisoning, told Channel 2 on Saturday: “This is very worrying. There is no doubt that we have not seen anything like this in years, perhaps ever since nuclear experiments were conducted in the atmosphere in the 1950s. From what we can gather, this disaster is even more dangerous than Chernobyl, both from the standpoint of the population’s exposure to radioactive material and the spread of radioactive contamination in the area.”
Luria continued: “Once there is an uncontrollable heating up, the nuclear fuel undergoes a metamorphosis into the gaseous phase. Since we are talking about metals and solid items, they turn into particles that are capable of traveling great distances. They can wander thousands of kilometers.”
If these gases are indeed emitted into the atmosphere in large quantities, the wind regime could carry them all the way to China, South Korea, and eastern Russia, or in the other direction, toward Hawaii and the west coast of the United States. The likelihood of this happening, though, is not high. ”
[Speaking strictly for myself, I'd much prefer zero likelihood.]
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/japan-nuclear-blast-could-be-more-deadly-than-chernobyl-experts-fear-1.348809
New information from WNN, linked previously. Confirms the role of the tsunami itself in the station blackout and indicates that (like the earthquake) the tsunami exceeded the design parameters.
Emphasis added by me:
That is the most UN-reassuring thing I have read all day. “It’s not my job, man.”
13.03.2011 18:06
AIR Worldwide Releases Preliminary Estimate of Insured Losses for the Mw9.1 Tohoku Earthquake
Based on currently available information, catastrophe modeling firm AIR Worldwide estimates that insured property losses from the Mw9.1 earthquake that struck Japan on Friday will range between 1.2 trillion JPY to 2.8 trillion JPY. Using today’s exchange rate of 81.85 JPY to the dollar, this translates to a range of between 15 billion USD and 35 billion USD. To obtain this preliminary range, AIR simulated dozens of scenarios with varying magnitude (8.9 to 9.1), focal depth (15 km to 30 km) and rupture width (100 km to 150 km). The losses are most sensitive to rupture dimensions, and become extremely large if the modeled rupture is extended southward towards the Tokyo and Chiba prefectures, which contain a higher concentration of insured properties.
“Given the enormity of the Mw9.1 earthquake that struck Japan two days ago, it is still in the very early aftermath of the event,” said Dr. Jayanta Guin, senior vice president of research and modeling at AIR Worldwide. “Search and rescue efforts are still underway and damage assessment has only just begun, while considerable uncertainty still remains in the seismic parameters that define the event.”
Of significance, the website of Japan’s national seismic network remains offline, so ground motion observations are still unavailable. Since considerable uncertainty still exists with respect to the parameters of this earthquake, AIR considers this a preliminary loss estimate and plans to refine it when additional information such as ground motion recordings becomes available. Additionally, the AIR Earthquake Model for Japan does not account for the effects of tsunami. As more detailed information becomes available, AIR plans to independently estimate the loss due to tsunami and provide a combined loss estimate that avoids double-counting in the affected areas.
The event is the largest in Japan’s lengthy earthquake history, with the rupture extending across four segments of the subduction zone that parallels the Japan coast to the east. Seismologists both inside and outside Japan have said that such a scenario had not been contemplated and it was therefore not included in the official national seismic hazard maps of Japan.
AIR Worldwide Releases Preliminary Estimate of Insured Losses for …Mar 13, 2011 … AIR Worldwide Releases Preliminary Estimate of Insured Losses for the Mw9.1 Tohoku …. Fundamental company data provided by Capital IQ. …
finance.yahoo.com › All Y! Services
an interesting background link for those who are interested, a geologist interviews her dad, a nuclear engineer, about the nuclear power plant disaster in japan
Dear Japan,
We’d love to help you, but we’re busy killing Afghans and Iraqis. Carry on.
Love,
The United States
For a perspective about Japan’s disaster cost to the insurance industry, the U.S. spends about 43 billion per year in Afghanistan.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/63121-crs-calculates-cost-of-us-troop-presence-in-afghanistan
ps. and we’re also busy demolishing what is left of our middle class.
sincerely, the USA.
This is the first analysis I have encountered (out of dozens over the last 48 hours) that actually makes sense of the fragmentary and conflicting information issued thus far.
Interesting article by a Japanese reporter describes the effects of confusing information on the local population.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110313003798.htm
The evacuation numbers are confusing and that may be because some numbers reflect evacuations related to the power plant emergencies and some evacuations were in response to the earthquake and tsunami. Here’s a detailed account from the UN:
“About 380,000 people have been evacuated from the tsunami and earthquake affected areas and are being sheltered in 2,050 evacuation centres. According to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) authorities have also evacuated another 210,000 people living within a 20 km (12-mile) radius around the Fukushima nuclear power plants,” the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) said in an update on the rescue operation.
Probably, the evacuation numbers do not include those who self-evacuated themselves (i.e., lived in areas outside the exclusion zones established by authorities).
Yeah, I heard on the BBC that one town of 17,000 had 10,000 missing after the tsunami. They probably won’t have a good estimate on the death toll for weeks.
Beyond what is happening at the nuclear plants, there’s a fire at a petrochemical plant and god knows what toxins have been washed into the sea by all the flooding.
There is plenty to worry about from not only poor Japan’s perspective but all of us on this planet we call home:
http://www.bellona.org/articles/articles_2011/mox_reactor_coolant_loss
and this from http://www.llrc.org:
Fukushima risks Potential health consequences of the explosion at the Fukushima reactor in Japan
Dr. Busby said the reassurances being issued now by official sources and by apologists for the nuclear industry are exactly the same as those issued 25 years ago, at the time of Chernobyl. Risks were understated, as show by subsequent epidemiological studies.
Statements about allegedly low health risks are based on rates of gamma radiation measured at the site perimeter. These take no account of radiation from alpha-emitting radionuclides such as Uranium and Plutonium. It is of particular concern that the number 3 reactor at Fukushima which is now in a problematic condition is fuelled with Mixed-Oxide fuel containing Plutonium.
The health consequences of exposure to radioactive releases from nuclear plant cannot be accurately assessed by making radiation measurements based on absorbed dose. The authorities already downplay risks on the basis of the false radiation risk model advised by the International Commission on Radiological Protection (ICRP). This is an exact replication of the responses to the similar Chernobyl explosion. The effects of the Chernobyl accident have been devastating and continue to affect the health of the exposed populations as far away from Chernobyl as Europe and the USA. 1A major volume published in 2010 by the New York Academy of Sciences reveals a death toll of approaching 1 million persons by 2005.
Absorbed dose readings (milliSieverts) cannot be employed as measures of risk because some radioactive substances act from within the body, with especially high risk imparted by those that bind to DNA (e.g Strontium-90 and Uranium). Dose to the local tissue or DNA can be enormous while the average dose recorded by a Geiger counter may be barely detectable. (More information)
If significant amounts of radioactivity from the Fukushima plume approach populated centres in any country (e.g. the western USA) the European Committee on Radiation Risk advises:
• Do not believe assurances from radiation protection advisors working for any government. They are based on an obsolete model. This is a potential Chernobyl level event and must be seen as extremely serious.
• If possible obtain a Geiger Counter or a similar radiation detector or readings from someone who owns one. If the readings increase to more that twice the normal background in your area or to a level of more than 300nSv/h (300nGy/h) then:
• Get away as soon as possible to a clean area. If it is not possible to evacuate, stay indoors and keep all the doors and windows closed for as long as the radiation levels are higher than normal. Try to keep the house sealed as far as possible.
• Drink bottled water, use only tinned milk. Avoid fresh garden produce. (We acknowledge that this is difficult advice for the people of Japan, where local produce is economically important.) Await further bulletins on this site and ECRR
on top of all this another fact being downplayed is that the quake caused an axis shift to the planet…that is simply not a good thing!
I send out all good thoughts for the people of Japan…
may some miracle protect them and by extension us…it certainly does not seem that the genius’s that allow these plants to be built have our best interests in mind or heart!
Yes, I saw an interview with the Japanese ambassador to the US in which he distinguished between the number who had been living in the zone of evacuation vs. the number who were actually alive there now and in need of evacuation. There was a big difference in the numbers.
Kyodo news service has a “breaking” crawler that says radiation levels at Daiichi Unit 1 are rising again.
Correction: the radiation levels are rising at the Daiichi complex. No unit number is mentioned. My bad.
X2
Thoughtful response to comparisons with Chernobyl.
As of right now, the differences between Chernobyl and this set of accidents are greater than the similarities.
Interesting link about the comparisions…
I think the key phrase for me from the llrc site was:
“reassurances being issued now by official sources and by apologists for the nuclear industry are exactly the same as those issued 25 years ago, at the time of Chernobyl. Risks were understated, as shown by subsequent epidemiological studies.”
…as to if this event in Japan is the same as Chernobyl…I think we can agree it is not
Thank you. As a geologist and emergency planner who evaluated nuclear power plant exercises (including the Trojan plant), I found that very interesting.
This article also was interesting. It states that the design earthquake for the San Onofre plant is M7.0, and they put up a wall that would accommodate a 25 foot tsunami, plus 5 additional feet. http://www.ocregister.com/news/plant-291963-alexander-onofre.html The article doesn’t say if aftershocks were included in the projection.
Earthquake risks are very tricky to calculate because seismic activity can have lapses that extend far beyond recorded history, and so much still unknown. Indeed, geologists have discovered many new faults in recent year. A new risk assessment seems to be in order.
I can help you with that, Lobster. See my previos posts, particularly the one where i delineate people’s primary motivators.
Amazing. Just amazing.
Earily similar slant during the BP cover up.
They know nothing, must rely on the experts, and wouldn’t be right to interfere, (ha ha).
We must rely on those in charge for the cover up narration.
Demand is down right now b/c Japan had to shut down so many refineries.
Somewhat off topic, but some before and after satellite pictures of Japanese coastal towns from the NY Times. No wonder the power plants have problems, and no wonder evacuation of the population is in turmoil. That anyone even survived is remarkable.
Just drag the slider on the pictures.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html?hp
Daiichi reactor 1 was only 2 weeks from retirement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boiling_water_reactors
http://www.icjt.org/npp/podrobnosti.php?drzava=14&lokacija=818
Thanks to all for a very informative discussion.
The Union of Concerned Scientists has put up a new post which is rather alarming:
“However, Tokyo Electric has reported that the water level in the Unit 3 reactor still remains more than 2 meters (6 feet) below the top of the fuel, exposing about half the fuel to air, and they believe that water may be leaking from the reactor vessel. When the fuel is exposed to air it eventually overheats and suffers damage. It is likely that the fuel has experienced significant damage at this point, and the authorities have said they are proceeding on this assumption.
One particular concern with Unit 3 is the presence of mixed-oxide (MOX) fuel in the core. MOX is a mixture of plutonium and uranium oxides. In September 2010, 32 fuel assemblies containing MOX fuel were loaded into this reactor. This is about 6% of the core.
I have done considerable analysis on the safety risks associated with using MOX fuel in light-water reactors. The use of MOX generally increases the consequences of severe accidents in which large amounts of radioactive gas and aerosol are released compared to the same accident in a reactor using non-MOX fuel, because MOX fuel contains greater amounts of plutonium and other actinides, such as americium and curium, which have high radio-toxicities.”
http://allthingsnuclear.org/tagged/Japan_nuclear?utm_source=SP&utm_medium=more&utm_campaign=japan-crisis-3-13-11-more
Dead thread is dead, I suppose…
From Union of Concerned Scientists
NYTimes
Bill, from Twitter feed: an explosion at #3 Fukushima, can you update again? Scarecrow, lobster, others?
We need a new thread.
Explosion at Unit 3 confirmed by Kyodo. Lots of stuff happening right now.
People ordered indoors after blast.
Apparently this is a hydrogen blast like occurred at Unit 1.
Question is whether the containment is breached.
Everyone within 20 km ordered indoors.
Good lord….the Kyodo crawler just said that another tsunami was observed in the last few minutes.
All from Kyodo news service, here’s the timing, all in local Japan time:
11:17: Tsunami observed @ Fukushima
11:22: Hydrogen blast @ Unit 3 @ Fukushima Daiichi
11:31: All people within 20 km of Fukushima Power Plant ordered indoors.
Full story from Kyodo so far:
AP is reporting a hydrogen explosion per Japanese officials: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42056237/ns/world_news-asiapacific/
Yes we do, I can find next to nothing in media at the moment.
Again from Kyodo:
Monday morning news from Miyagi: 2,000 bodies found in one area of Miyagi Prefecture.
Just tuning in again… What’s the link to Kyodo news service? Where is everyone?
To be clear, the bodies have nothing to do with the explosion. It is just Monday AM in Japan so reports are coming out now.
Please do not be confused. The official report from Edano (the spox from earlier) is that there are no known injuries from the Unit 3 blast.
I’m going to have to buy a Kyodo subscription to learn more, darn it.
Edano (spox) says no new radiation leaks after explosion, no known injuries, and reactor containment not damaged in explosion.
Also, Japan Meterological Society now says tsunami was false alarm (11:48).
Wow, lots going on all at once.
Explosion at Fukushima Daiichi 3
TheBradBlog
Here we go again. RT @martyn_williams: BREAKING NEWS: Hydrogen blast occurs at Fukushima nuke plant’s No. 3 reactor: agency – Kyodo
Kyodo:
Tokyo governor issues order to measure radioactivity levels in Tokyo.
Lobster, there will probably be a new thread up shortly.
Please keep liveblogging what you hear. The link posted above isn’t working for me right now. Possibly too many trying to access.
Interesting…
“Edano denied there had been a meltdown in the Fukushima Daiichi complex, but other officials said the situation was not so clear.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42056237/ns/world_news-asiapacific/
After blast, seawater injection @ Unit 3 is continuing according to Edano-san (spox).
(Good stories in the NYT right now describing the state of affairs with this seawater injection, pressure venting, etc; in good agreement with FDL threads).
Scarecrow just put up new post:
http://my.firedoglake.com/scarecrow/2011/03/13/japan-nuclear-watch-possible-new-explosion-at-naiichi-3/
The New York Times is reporting:
“Pentagon officials reported on Sunday that helicopters flying 60 miles from the plant picked up small amounts of radioactive particulates — still being analyzed, but presumed to include Cesium-137 and Iodine-121 — suggesting widening environmental contamination.”
In another story the Pentagon said the Aircraft Carrier Ronald Reagan passed through a plume that gave the sailors a year’s worth of radiation in an hour.
Looks like another classic example of the dangers of underestimating tail risk.
I wish I could see the view. “Belching smoke” in thick column before explosion does not sound right to me. Not the same as Unit 1.
The CV report is the worst news I’ve heard so far.
Please repost in the new thread now that this has been EPU’d!
From twitter, a new video:
alexwitze Alexandra Witze
by kate_sheppard
Video of new explosion at #Fukushima reactor 3 youtube.com/watch?v=dx6IS0… via @stevesilberman, others
This has been blocked at YouTube, I am sorry.
Depends on the subsoil. If it’s rock and the rock does not move differentially, then the concrete will not crack.
Concrete only cracks when it’s pun under tension, which will happen if there is a void under one side of a slab.
The cracking is a failure of the rebar which is there to provide tensile strength. Concrete is very strong under compressive loads.
You do seem to be exhibiting some hysteria about the concreted, based on wild imaginings and lack of facts.
Fission will never work on earth. The whole structure become radioactive.
We have a very safe fission rector we use all day. The sun.
You remember EPU!
And we’re busy approving federal loan guarantees for more nuclear plants of our very own. Thanks for nothing, Obama.
“…no known injuries from the unit 3 blast…”
Updated, there are three people injured and 7 missing:
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20110314/D9LUNVM00.html
Also, the blast was felt 25 miles away. With that kind of explosion they HAVE to be lowballing the seriousness of it, all to hell and gone.
Also, wondering about the clip being taken off of Youtube.
Looks like some nuke industry honchos are tugging on leashes.
When you grasp the relative size of those buildings at Dai-ichi, then the clip of #1 going up, which has practically gone viral, is truly frightening.
Film of the blast over on the huffpo. Way bigger than the explosion at Unit 1–obvious fireball, blast cloud twice as high and it looks as though it blew out the side far enough to encompass the #2 unit (at least the dust cloud covered it). I’d be very surprised if there weren’t casualties.
“This has been blocked at YouTube…”
Again, sounds like some corporate horsepower being used to tug on Youtube’s leash. That should be public domain. Will we see it on the MSM tomorrow?
Don’t hold your breath.
I’m thinking that the nuclear power industry here is doing every damn thing they can to scrub and sanitize the news about this.
reddog:
3 injured and 7 missing:
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20110314/D9LUNVM00.html
Thanks for the tip about Huffpo. Off I go.
Holy shit! And they’re saying that the containment vessel is still intact?
Even if that’s true, any pipes or conduits around and into it have to have been reduced to scrap, and probably radioactive scrap, at that.
She/he actually believes a private insurance company would pay the claim.
It takes progressives to buy that after the mortgage meltdown AIG deal. AIG needs her.
God figured it all out so Margaret can too.
A third reactor failing. Who was the ahole that wrote a paper saying the radioactive elements in the water had a short half-life?
Richter increase of .1 means 1.26 times more power
pretty sure you haven’t actually done the math.
reactor 3 exploding -er i mean reactor 3 containment vessel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_N-wNFSGyQ
“remember kids, this isn’t a meltdown, like a classic Chernobyl, meltdown, where the core fissions like a overcooked egg and throws radioactive fallout over half the world. This is just a partial meltdown where the fuel cools slowly in the open air, letting the birds and bees inhale a slight radioactive mist. Quite romantic.” -anon
“short half-life” is a relative term when discussing radioactive elements. If the primary element has a half-life of say 4.5 billion years (actual half-life of U-238), and the secondary element has one of just 234,000 years (actual half-life of U-234), that is quite short now isn’t it?
There are certain decay products of U-238 that have very short half-life numbers – some of them as short as 1 minute or less (Proactinium 234 – 1 minute, Polonium 214 – 160 microseconds) and a few that are measured in a few days or weeks so the author of the paper was making a true statement.
Context is everything however, and it would be interesting to see just what elements the author was discussing since there are quite a few decay products that result from U-238.
Then a good design should have enough battery and diesel power (either by itself for redundancy) for that contingency.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki, two of the greatest acts of terrorism in human history.
Radiation could, might be blown across the ocean and somehow harm us.
Yes, the awkward dance the corporate media is engaged in: how does one talk about radiation and Japan while evading the fact that we dropped not one but two Atomic bombs on these people!
I know, “it was war”; any and all acts of terrorism commented while wearing official state uniforms do not count. But this act of being the first and only country in human history to unleash the destructive power of a mini sun on men women and children
Puts us a apart from all others. So, when you cold technocrats talk of ration possiblly being blown across the ocean to harm us remember that cold hearted bitch Enola Gay.
Paul Tibbets named the plane after his dear mother: to his dieing day (a few years back) Tibbets had “no” regrets!