
This cutaway diagram shows the central reactor vessel and thick concrete containment in a typical boiling water reactor of the same era as Fukushima Daiichi 1 (image: www.world-nuclear-news.org)
Things continue to develop at the Daiichi and Daini nuclear power stations in Japan today. As you have already heard, a second reactor building exploded at Daiichi, it was the Unit 3 which had been experiencing the same problems as Unit 1, which also exploded.
What is believed to have happened is that hydrogen gas which was released along with the steam to reduce the pressure in the reactor vessel built up in the generation building and then a random spark ignited it. The building is seen to have the same kinds of damage that the Unit 1 building had.
Additionally Unit 2 has been reported to have exposed the rods and is in the process of at least a partial melt down at this time. What does this mean? It is likely that they will be experiencing the same pressure and hydrogen problems that Units 1 and 3 have had, with a similar danger of hydrogen explosion.
There has been a lot of talk that the reactor vessel (the actual structure of the reactor) might have been ruptured by these explosions because of the detection of Cesium (a fission by product). The main reason I find this unlikely at this time is that if the reactor vessel had failed two things would have happened.
The first is that the pressure within the vessel would have fallen to normal atmospheric pressure, this would have flashed most of the water in the vessel to steam by lowering the boiling point of that water. The second is that there would have been a massive increase in the amount of radiation detected.
While there have been reports of radiation detected at long distances (60 miles) we have to remember that venting of radioactive steam has been going on for three days now and that it could have traveled. We also are not being told how high this increase in radioactivity is. That is an important metric as very small increases can be detected.
We are now getting reports through the BBC that fuel rods in all three of these reactors are melting. The issue here is the way that they have been adding sea water to the reactors. It is being done through a system of fire hoses. They are using diesel powered pumps and the New York Times quotes and official as saying:
“The pump ran out of fuel,” Mr. Edano said, “and the process of inserting water took longer than expected, so the fuel rods were likely exposed from the water for a while.”
Note the uncertainty in Mr. Edano’s statement. This is another factor in the trouble with these reactors. The monitoring systems which they rely on are no longer as accurate as they were.
They can not just fill the reactor to the brim, because if they do, the steam generated from the still very hot rods would cause pressure to build up to the point where the reactor vessel ruptured. They have to add water, let it boil, then vent steam, then add more water.
When the steam vents the overall water level goes down, which risks exposing the core. It is also a problem when you can not vent steam. As more water becomes steam it lessens the cooling efficiency at the same time increasing the pressure.
The CBC is reporting that Unit 2’s problems are related to a stuck venting valve. If they can not release steam then they can not control the level of water or the pressure within the reactor.
Worse, and this has been a problem (we think) for all three reactors, every time part of the core is exposed there is additional heating of the whole reactor. While the control rods damp down the fission reaction, the water is there to help as well. When there is even a partial meltdown this changes the efficiency of the rod configuration. The water becomes even more important.
If it drops that moderating affect goes away, and small amounts of fission begin with the resulting heat that this reaction produces. So when they drop the water level too low, it sets back the overall cooling process. Under normal circumstances it can take days for a core to cool off and as we all know this is far from normal.
The nightmare scenario is that one of the reactor vessels ruptures and the core goes into a fully uncontrolled melt down. There is a containment vessel around the reactor, and the Japanese officials have been flooding this with water as well, but if the core fully melts leaves the reactor vessel there is almost nothing that can be done. The melted rods would be reacting without moderation and would likely rupture the containment vessel in short order.
At this point the whole plant would have to be abandoned. It would be lethal in short order for anyone there. What makes this triply as bad is that they could not continue to work to prevent the same thing at the other two reactors that are in trouble or the other three that are also at the site.
Worst case, all six of the Daiichi reactors melt down. The radiation levels from this kind of event would be off the chart. It would be as bad as Chernobyl but not as wide spread. Part of the reason that Chernobyl was so bad was that it burned, this lifted radioactive graphite and fission products up to the upper atmosphere. That is unlikely to happen here.
Things continue to develop and we will continue to provide as much detail as we can over the next hours and days. Keep your fingers crossed. As bad as things are they can get a lot worse, they have not thanks to the heroic efforts of the Japanese technicians. They are working with very little power and without their usual level of information to prevent a cataclysm.
The floor is yours



176 Comments

“It would be as bad as Chernobyl but not as wide spread. Part of the reason that Chernobyl was so bad was that it burned, this lifted radioactive graphite and fission products up to the upper atmosphere. That is unlikely to happen here. ”
Why is the Chernobyl burn scenario ‘unlikely to happen here’?
The type of reactor. Instead of water, Chernobyl used graphite to moderate the nuclear reaction. It is a fire waiting to happen. If the graphite gets to hot it bursts into flame.
These plants are all boiling water reactors. There is nothing to burn if the water is gone, though the rods would melt and begin fission reactions they would not get so hot that they burn.
AFAIK, the big difference is that there’s no graphite in the design of these reactors.
The water vapor can’t carry as much radioactive material.
Furthest thing from an expert.
Thanks Bill, and for all your other work on this disaster too.
You got it right. The graphite burns really hot, so the plume from the fire is lifted really high. That lets it spread really far.
I sooooo wish I did not have to do it. I am just keeping my fingers crossed they can keep the reactor vessel from rupturing. As bad as it is now, it gets worse on a very steep slope if that happens.
Another thing that made the Chernobyl accident especially dangerous to this day is the design of the vessel itself. Pressure caused the lid to be blown off and it flipped over and landed sideways in the vessel, where it remains today.
Bill – sorry for the personal ot here, but did I read somewhere that you are a minister? I might be confusing you with someone else?
Awaiting your answer before I pose my real question. Thanks.
No containment vessel? Is that the question? Hi Peg.
No, I am not a minister! I am an atheist so that would be problematic. Jim Moss is a minister though.
Reuters flahes via twitter that Japan has officially asked the U.S. NRC for help.
Thanks Bill. Best reporting I’ve been able to find all day.
It’s the reactor vessel itself I’m talking about. The containment building lost its roof in the explosion.
Hi Deb.
Help in containment of nuclear material, information or both?
Bill, another very well-written summary. Thank you for all your work over the last few days.
Yesterday I found myself in front of my house with my broom, while my neighbor was cutting his hedge, and I ended up explaining what was going on at the various reactor plants and why. Ended up with several neighbors listening. All information from you and the rest of us in these threads.
Thanks again!
getting the fuel under control, sounds like. No link in the tweet. :(
Ah. Thanks.
You can not believe in religion and still care for folks, though. I’m pretty sure.
Didn’t mean for there to be offensiveness. At least I didn’t wonder if your were a lawyer. Ha.
Hardly a surprise. They are preparing themselves for the worst case scenario. With all the other problems there they need teams that would be supported from out of the country. A major clean up of a nuclear accident is a big enough problem let alone in a country reeling from earthquake and tsunami.
LOL! I care about people, I just don’t traffic with gods. And I was raised by a lawyer and a social worker who were both politicians. Kind of like being raised by wolves but less cuddly!
Bill,
Can you compare the containment facility (surrounding the steel pressure vessel which contains the reactor core) to that of the one at Three Mile Island?
I’ve seen two different cutaways of what this BWR looks like, but it isn’t clear to me what kind of protection the facility provides in case the pressure vessel is compromised. At TMI, the facility was contaminated through a breach in the coolant system, but while half the core melted down, the pressure vessel ultimately held up.
How many feet of concrete or other materials are we talking about in this BWR design?
You’re very welcome. The best thing we can do is share accurate info. There is a lot of scare stuff going on, no need for folks to be scared of the wrong things.
But I got to give props to Scarecrow, Twolf, Lobster and the Prof, they are all making this the go to place for real info.
Who manages the subject facilities? I noted that CNN spent hours interviewing an American woman whop identified herself as the wife of a nuclear power plant worker in Japan.
There is no “containment building” like there is at Three Mile Island. The buildings at Fukushima Diaichi are just there to keep the weather out.
White house press briefing.
There is plenty to burn. Everything burns if it gets hot enough.
This includes the steel in the plant, the fuel rods, and the spent fuel rods.
The spent fuel rods are considered the greatest risk, they too need to be cooled continuously, and one suspects their cooling system also failed.
The biggest failure of all? Building equipment to does not go “off” in the event of a failure. Off must be the default condition, because “on” has disastrous side effects.
All machines fail. All.
Yikes! I will have to do some checking. But first let me say this and it might help. There is the reactor vessel, which holds the reactor core, then there is a containment vessel, which is the primary backstop, then there is the secondary containment building.
It is these buildings that have been damaged at Unit 1 and Unit 3 from hydrogen explosions. It is the containment vessels that have kept the reactor vessels from being damaged in these explosions. It is not what they were designed for but they have worked pretty well for it so far.
I will see if I can give you are solid answer on the comparison question.
how many Japanese remember Hiroshima,it is a country of elderly…poor ,poor peeps
Significant worsening before the second uncovering of the fuel (sorry if already posted. I was out for a bit.)
I just got back from the store where I got a ton of canned stuff to re-stock my earthquake supplies. And, we just made a list of stuff, like batteries, candles, more water, first aid stuff that we need, if we want to be prepared. Anyone else on the west coast doing that?
Yes, everything burns if if gets hot enough but the rods won’t burn they will melt and have an uncontrolled fission reaction if they do. That is not going to get concrete hot enough to burn. Likewise with the metal of the machines.
omg
Thanks Lobster! You have been invaluable in this.
And that is really not good. Not good at all. I wonder if they exposed the whole core?
They do not have to drill a hole in the wall of the unit 2 building to release the hydrogen. The explosion of unit 3 did that for them:
Thanks. Another question comes to mind. I see in the cutaways and have read that this design has a “dry well” around the reactor vessel. What exactly is it’s purpose? Does it aid in containment somehow?
Ōkuma, Fukushima weather is cold – in the 30′s – below freezing at night is forecast for later this week.
Would not the core melt down heat – albeit less than graphite – cause a high enough rise of the radiation particles so as to it carried in the westerly winds to the US – given the low temp of the ground?
My gut feeling is that Unit 2 is currently in worst shape. As noted in previous thread by someone else, though, the fire equipment is evidently being shared among the various units. So if they get Unit 2 under control, … you get the idea.
I believe I read that Unit 2 lost *all* cooling water for a period of time, recently.
Flooding the containment buildings with sea water? Swag on my part.
Bill,
A resource that Americans tend to unaware of for news is the excellent UK Service Newsnow. It’s an aggregator. They’ve set up two specific “hot topic” pages:
Japan Earthquake
and
Japan Earthquake – Nuclear Crisis
Worth your while keeping an eye on both those pages.
I’m off on my travels, catch up with you all in a few days hopefully.
markfromireland
Thanks.
From there, they can render farm land and fresh water unusable.
LOL
The experts I’ve read say no. The Pacific is a big ocean it takes radioactive particles to cross those kinds of distances. If they are that low to start with they are not likely to make it all the way across.
Thanks Mark! Have a good trip!
Unfortunately there isnt any such thing as “OFF” with these nuc reactors. They can damp the chain reaction way down (95 percent max) but the fuel rods still keep generating heat. Theres no way to make their inherent radioactivity go away.
x2
Started doing some of the same yesterday. My roommate, trad-Dem voter that she is, was completely *mystified* as to why I was doing that, *as she sat & watched the Dateline special about Japan complete with on-the-ground footage of the devastation.*
Are nearly all US citizens in massive denial? Methinks: yes.
Yeah that is what it seems like to me. They are doing a hell of a job with make shift equipment. Too bad they have to.
okay off to see the farm critters,my guts are feeling poorly
Okay. Anybody else in the US doing that? Are you all prepared? Doesn’t have to be an earthquake. Could be something else bad. Just trying to insert some control in my life in these days of uncertainty.
AFAIK,
TEPCO
Tokyo Electric Power Company.
Thanks for keeping us updated on this. Very sad for Japanese people; very concerned for the welfare of my own self (if I may be so selfish). This is not good.
US “nooz” definitely downplaying this; running lots of little “lessons” about why such an earthquake won’t happen here in the USA… despite the fact that there was some significant damage to boats and ships moored off the Pacific coastline (no loss of life here, though, but still…).
Concerned re nuclear fall-out, although my friends & co-workers appear blissfully unaware that this could have any impact on them directly. foolish foolish foolish & so short-sighted…
Goats or guts?
I hope that’s correct, but these days, I don’t trust almost anyone claiming to be an expert. But thanks for the input, though.
NRC just gave a press briefing (the first I’ve seen since the quake). Commissioner Jaczko was asked about melting of the cores and responded that the Japanese government had not provided details on the status of the reactors. However, Japan has requested technical advice and equipment to restore cooling.
Sounds to me like Jaczko was being evasive. How can the US provide technical advice if the Japanese aren’t sharing details about the situation? Or is this temporary, until they can set up a cone of silence?
Well, at this point there is not a lot of worry about fall out. That could change but we still are in far better shape than when Chernobyl happened
Okay. Anybody else in the US doing that? Are you all prepared? Doesn’t have to be an earthquake. Could be something else bad. Just trying to insert some control in my life in these days of uncertainty.
Anyone else feeling like they’d like to have some authority, control, discipline going on?
Blue Texan’s regularly scheduled post is up: The Republican Establishment Declares War on Sarah Palin
I think (and this is totally a guess) is that they are asking for emergency clean up teams, as a precaution if they lose containment of one or more of the reactors.
That is not something any government is going to want to say out loud even if it makes perfect sense.
The issue is how do you keep folks on the ground at the plant with a reactor that has lost containment? You have to clean it up ASAP or you will lose the other reactors.
Like I said, a guess, but that is what I think it happening with this.
Another day or 2 and the US corporate media will be back to the hot stories of the day, Charlie Sheen and Lindsay Lohan, and Mika will be giving blowjobs when she stops at gas station air pumps to get her head pumped up.
Any religion in a storm – and a belief in no god is just another belief which if it works for you, great. Indeed when I was in physics in school near 75% were not into religion – although most were agnostic. I do not believe things have changed over the last 50 years at least in that area (I still amuse myself with discussions on God with the physics/engineering research staff at MIT – but I’ll spare you since I am already Off topic much too much – besides it is pretty much on auto-pilot these days – you say god of the gaps and I say not applicable because …, etc).
I like your background of politicians as mom and dad – a lawyer and a social worker – looking forward to your insights as to how a politician can be moved into a leftward direction!
Let’s deal with this question now, shall we?
I believe there will be positive radiation readings in the US by the end of the week. However, and this is a big however, it is not yet likely that the levels will be dangerous, even for cancer incidence. I do not say this lightly; I myself have cancer, so keep your flames on low, please.
Scientists can detect incredibly tiny changes in the amount of ambient radiation and they (we) will report those changes. How should a rational person respond if there is an increase in radiation in the US? How did your parents and grandparents respond when huge amounts of radiation were dumped into the atmosphere in the age of atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons? There is no easy answer.
The standards for radiation exposure are appropriately very, very low. You know this is true because the standards allow for people to get lots of X-rays when they go to the hospital. The dosages to the sailors on the Ronald Reagan were in the range of a single X-ray. Obviously, no one should be giving X-rays to large populations without some real benefit. However, we are in a bad situation at this point, and it is probably worth beginning to think about how much radiation is too much, especially when there is nothing that can be done about it.
I will try to put together a separate post on radiation exposure standards. If anyone else wants to do it, more power to you. Maybe if I can get Professor Foland to work on it with me, there will be less suspicion (though I’ve been on site longer, I think; just much less vocal). The most complicated question is that of the effects of low doses. Facts are very hard to come by in that instance. Consequently, there will be at least as much heat in this discussion as light. Get ready.
My answer to papua is: given the continuing worsening of the situation, there will probably be radiation increases recorded in the US soon. It does not particularly matter how cold it is there. I have no idea how much might make the 5,000 mile journey, and I have no idea how much has been or will be released. Don’t shoot the messenger.
I always wonder about the effects of the above nuclear testing in the 40′s and 50′s on those of us born in those days…there must have been tons of radiation spreading regularly across the states in prevailing winds..a slew of my brother’s friends died back in the 80′s, who were born in the 40′s, of leukemia on the East Coast.
Answering my own question. The dry well receives steam vented from the reactor vessel, where it can then vent into the toroidal shaped wet well at the bottom of the picture. That steam, under more normal conditions, is condensed in the wet well.
It seems the dry well leaked into the building above (not sure if that is intentional or not) which subsequently exploded from ignition of hydrogen gas.
This is designed, I guess, to retain radiated steam in the dry well / wet well closed secondary system. I suppose we have to assume the secondary system is no longer completely closed.
Sheesh. Typical “I got mine, screw you” mentality.
The NRC briefing as communicated by CNN: The Japanese requested US technical experts to go over there and “make sure everything’s okay.”
There are differences of opinion, but I don’t think anyone is surmising that “everything’s okay.”
That makes sense, Bill. Thanks.
Arun Makihijani of the Institute for Energy and Environmental Research has a piece up at Counterpunch that goes into the dangers posed by the spent fuel rods should the pool level drop enough to uncover them. They are considerable and scary. Makihijani has a PhD in nuclear engineering and so presumably knows whereof he speaks.
Demi, I’m already sending my wife and two year old son to Cincinnati. They leave Thursday, circumstances prevent an earlier departure (My wife insists she needs to have a job to return to). I’m hoping this won’t really be needed but they’re everything. I’m not leaving this thread until this stuff is past. Thank you folks, really. I’m a psychologist and don’t really have anything to contribute here, but I’m so impressed by this coverage and commentary, I’m gonna stop ignoring the pleas for money! Seriously. I’ve looked around and this is the best there is. Thank you. I hope you guys can string a few consecutive hours of sleep together, soon.
Rep. Ed Markey on MSNBC is calling for a moratorium on new nuclear power plants in the US. There are no plants being built, or even in the planning stage as far as I know.
We could place a moratorium on drilling for oil on the moon, I suppose.
http://my.firedoglake.com/normanb/2011/03/14/japan-quake-fallout-shows-us-severely-endangered-by-president-obamas-nuclear-lies-and-dems-abandonment-of-clean-energy/
Demi, I understand your concern. Radiological emergency preparedness is my specialty. Is there any way I can help?
http://www.progressive.org/?q=node/334
Terry Tempest Williams has written about the health issues resulting from fall-out during the nuclear tests. Tempest Williams happens to be a Mormon; lives in Utah; and is a wonderful writer, an environmentalist. Can highly recommend any of her works; worth reading:
http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1300124545/ref=sr_gnr_spell?ie=UTF8&search-alias=stripbooks&field-keywords=terry%20tempest%20williams
Thanks for your input. Appreciate your insights. I’m clueless so what you say sounds reasonable. And yes, the main question (about which there may not be a “concrete” answer) is what happens with ongoing exposure to low doses of radiation? Would love to hear more, if possible.
CNN finally has a commentator on who appears knowledgeable about radiation doses and is willing to demand more details.
Current construction in the US (see refs at link)
Bill, Arun Makihijani of the Institute for Energy and Environmental Research and a piece up at Counterpunch, differs with you regarding the vulnerability of the zirconium fuel rod cladding to burning. Here’s a quote he takes from a National Academy of Sciences study done five years ago:
DH: Interested in co-authoring a post on issues related to radiation exposure?
I’ve read a few diaries about what happened to those who cleaned up at Chernobyl. It ain’t pretty. If you want some idea of what it’s like, watch the great (and undersung) movie called “K19 the WidowMaker.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-19:_The_Widowmaker
It’ll make you sick but very very very very grateful to the brave Russian naval crew who basically were forced to commit a version of suicide to keep the ill-prepared & poorly made Soviet nuclear-powered sub from blowing up right next to the Atlantic coast of the USA.
i put together my earthquake/emergency survival kit a couple of years ago, and can take care of myself for at least two weeks. have things in my house, garage and garden shed to cover different scenarios.
Tweet from Martyn Williams (IDG News), without any further context:
Thanks, very useful. Important to note that was max: 9:35pm 760; 9:37pm 3130; 10:15pm 431; 10:35pm 326μSv
That would be a fantastic post! Please do!
Bill & lobster, please don’t interpret this as questioning your expertise — quite the opposite, in fact I am in awe — but I would be interested to know what gives you all of the knowledge about this subject. Would you mind sharing? Is it training and work experience, intense interest as a hobby or avocation, or what? I am sure glad we have the two of you (and other contributors) to provide all of this info.
I’m just shaking my head. And hoping at least some people will wake up.
NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?hp
The plant’s operator, Tokyo Electric Power, said late Monday that repeated efforts to inject seawater into the reactor had failed, causing water levels inside the reactor’s containment vessel to fall and exposing its fuel rods. After what at first appeared to be a successful bid to refill the vessel, water levels again dwindled, this time to critical levels, exposing the rods almost completely, company executives said.
Workers were having difficulty injecting seawater into the reactor because its vents — necessary to release pressure in the containment vessel by allowing radioactive steam to escape — had stopped working properly, they said. . . .
In reactor No. 2, which is now the most damaged of the three at the Daiichi plant, at least parts of the fuel rods have been exposed for several hours, which also suggests that some of the fuel has begun to melt. If more of the fuel melts before water can be injected in the vessel, the fuel pellets could burn through the bottom of the containment vessel and radioactive material could pour out that way — often referred to as a full meltdown.
“They’re basically in a full-scale panic” among Japanese power industry managers, said a senior nuclear industry executive late Monday night. The executive is not involved in managing the response to the reactors’ difficulties but has many contacts in Japan. “They’re in total disarray, they don’t know what to do.”
I just saw that drawing and I see a problem. Well here is another rendering.
http://www.pilgrimwatch.org/images/radw8.jpg
Notice the fuel pool. This is a big problem
“They’re basically in a full-scale panic” among Japanese power industry managers, said a senior nuclear industry executive
Not good. At all.
Unfortunately the core melt down heat is not the only potential heat source that can drive aerial dispersal of particles. The nuclear engineer at an identical GE plant in the US describes another source: spent fuel rods.
‘Although Tokyo Electric said it also continued to deal with cooling system failures and high pressures at half a dozen of its 10 reactors in the two Fukushima complexes, fears mounted about the threat posed by the pools of water where years of spent fuel rods are stored.
At the 40-year-old Fukushima Daiichi unit 1, where an explosion Saturday destroyed a building housing the reactor, the spent fuel pool, in accordance with General Electric’s design, is placed above the reactor. Tokyo Electric said it was trying to figure out how to maintain water levels in the pools, indicating that the normal safety systems there had failed, too. Failure to keep adequate water levels in a pool would lead to a catastrophic fire, said nuclear experts, some of whom think that unit 1’s pool may now be outside.
“That would be like Chernobyl on steroids,” said Arnie Gundersen, a nuclear engineer at Fairewinds Associates and a member of the public oversight panel for the Vermont Yankee nuclear plant, which is identical to the Fukushima Daiichi unit 1.
People familiar with the plant said there are seven spent fuel pools at Fukushima Daiichi, many of them densely packed.
Gundersen said the unit 1 pool could have as much as 20 years of spent fuel rods, which are still radioactive.’
(from the WaPo http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/at-two-reactors-a-race-to-contain-meltdowns/2011/03/13/ABtdVDU_story.html)
In a MyFDL post I look at the engineer’s concerns and the issues they raise: http://my.firedoglake.com/kirkmurphy/2011/03/14/nuke-engineer-fuel-rod-fire-at-stricken-reactor-would-be-like-chernobyl-on-steroids/
Exec #1: Let’s reorganize!
Exec #2: Let’s offer some incentive bonuses to management!
Exec #3: Let’s convince the government to subsidize all our losses!
Exec #4: Let’s get everyone into a room and talk at length about how important it is to the company’s future to be successful!
Exec #5: Let’s run an ad campaign telling the public how safe and green our power is!
A contributor to the Occupational and Environmental Medicine list who once worked on nuclear waste issues provided additional information about Fukushima’s spent fuel rod assemblies.
“NIRS has a Nov 2010 powerpoint from Tokyo Electric Power Company (in english) detailing the modes and quantities of spent fuel stored at the Fukushima Daiichi plant where containment buildings #1 and #3 have exploded.
http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/accidents/6-1_powerpoint.pdf
If you have not yet seen the #3 explosion, I urge you to watch a short video that shows this from the start, at http://bit.ly/i6BIfL
After the smoke clears, it is evident that much more of the containment building around reactor #3 blew away than #1. There is no way the spent fuel storage pool, which sits just below the roof in the GE Mark 1 design, could have survived this blast intact.
And unlike unit #1 which was using uranium fuel, #3 uses MOX fuel that contains a mix of uranium and plutonium oxide.
The number of fuel assemblies in the reactor’s spent fuel pool, dry cask storage, and a common pool shared by all four reactors is shown on slide #9.
According to TEPCO, each reactor at Daiichi generates 700 “waste” fuel assemblies year, and there are 3450 assemblies in each reactor’s pool, plus another 6291 in a common pool in a separate building.
As shown in slide 10, the common pool building sits at ground level, with the pool itself above ground. The building also has windows on at least one side, and these were undoubtedly broken out by the tsunami which would have then flooded the entire building.”
fyi: latimes up with an article and graphic on the San Onofre Nuclear Plant.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/03/san-onofre-nuclear-plant-can-withstand-quakestsunamis-officials-say.html
demi…
you know over here we have been propagandized to believe…nothing to worry about here folks…all is ok…time to move along…GO SHOPPING!
You literally have to shake people to get their freakin heads outta the sand unfortunately…
Yes, that would be fantastic!
And I hope this request does not seem disrespectful – I sure don’t mean it to be. I’m hoping that it would be possible for the authors of such a post to make their identities public. The reason for this is to allow readers here and elsewhere to do their own inquiries regarding who is advising them on about risks arising from very capital-intensive technologies. Sadly, the history of health assurances re dangers of capital intensive technologies – and this includes a great many physicians, as The Secret War On Cancer thoroughly documents – it one of “experts” with substantial conflicts of interests providing to the public information that is at best inaccurate or at worst blatantly deceptive.
This request is not based on any concerns I have about anyone volunteering to do this work, and I hope it is not construed as such. Simply put, the states involved are too high for members of the public to be able to place faith in assurances coming from pseudonyms. I’m hoping the proposed work will do a lot to answer public concern: I know it will have the greatest power to do so if the authors identify themselves.
Cheers!
Here is a brief overview of radiation effects on the human body from the National Science Digital Library:
http://www.atomicarchive.com/Effects/effects15.shtml
D.E.T.E.R.I.O.R.A.T.E! (NOT develop).
Thanks for the comment – I agree – I expect a rise on the West Coast readings in a week.
But things that are hot rise higher in cold weather – but it may not be enough to get to fast high wind flows (the way a volcano can spread dust across the world).
Right, but the pools where the used rods are stored are not (as far as we know at this time) in danger of losing their water. They also do not require the flow of water to cool them as rods that have been in an active core do.
And yet the nice lady on NPR hourly news just assured me that everything is under control, the heat in the reactors that have had problems has been quelled, and the crisis is over. So said some Japanese authority.
Yeah, those tests were horrid. Orders of magnitude worse than Chernobyl.
I can’t speak for Lobster but I am a Mensa nerd who likes technology. I also researched nuclear reactors for a novel I wrote, so call me an informed hobbyist. By professional training I am a 6 Sigma Black Belt (process improvement project manager) so I do a lot of systems analysis.
Full shutdown as default is “Unacceptable” but looks like that’s where we are.
In an article about the problems, a reference was made to a wiki post which contained the word “Corium” I checked it out and it’s what results in a core meltdown:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corium_%28nuclear_reactor%29
There is no way in hell I as an engineer, would ever sign off on a design like this, and particularly if total shutdown as default is unacceptable. The risks are way too enormous in the case of nuclear power generation.
But then, I don’t do nuclear engineering. And yes, I know about probabilities and statistics.
I suggest that anything, I mean anything that is claimed by the goverment through the NRC is to be taken with a generous grain of salt…another words…don’t bet your life on it!
Well this was supposed to go at the end of the thread. Not being mindful…again.
As Murphy MD mentioned above the spent fuel is a huge deal. If those assemblies have been damaged or God forbid spewed all over the site then workers are facing huge exposure and contamination risks.
And how many workers are there? Locals knowing their homes and families are probably dead.
But lets get back to the first issue. It may become impossible to continue to work in those blasted structures that are all crapped up. Up to and including doing so may amount to huge over exposures. In which case it is within the realm of possibility that they will have to be abandoned to whatever fate chooses.
Bill -
Could you comment on the Pebble bed ideas coming out of MIT?
http://pebblebedreactor.blogspot.com/2007/01/mit-drives-much-pebble-bed-reactor.html
I apologizer for “MIT” being the source rather than some other source – it is just that Tech is just familiar – my original school and I live a few miles from it and hang with folks that work there.
As you can see, even the waste problem is discussed. Waste rod pools are no longer forever danger areas.
We’ve got 16 old GE BWR reactors just like the problemed ones at Daiichi which we have no plans to retire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boiling_water_reactors
By old, I mean constucted around the same time as Daiichi(1971-1976). And unlike the reactors at Daiichi which were scheduled for retirement over the next 5 years, we’re relicensed ours for another 20 years. Most of them are planned for retirement in the 2030′s.
Satellite view of damage to Units 1 and 3:
http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/featured_images/japan_earthquaketsu_fukushima_daiichi_march14_2011_dg.jpg
I’m a little surprised the anti-science wingnuts haven’t started claiming radiation doesn’t exist. You can’t see it, after all and it isn’t mentioned ANYWHERE in the bible. Surely that wasn’t an oversight on the part of that God guy.
Something that has been bugging me, if the metal reactor chamber was intact there was no way they could pump seawater/boric acid into it. Some at FDL said last night they were pumping the seawater into the gap between the metal reactor and the concrete structure. If that was the case, I wondered why the boric was in there, I figured it was a ‘might as well have it’ kind of thing.
Looking at the diagram, maybe they are pumping in the seawater in to keep the spent rods cool. You can see the two spaces are kind of connected, if there are cracks from the explosion.
http://static1.firedoglake.com/1/files/2011/03/Fukushima-reactor-schematic.jpg
I am sorry to hear of this about your personal health, and I wanted to thank you again for all of your work and input. I am clueless about all of this, yet extremely concerned, and that is why your information is valuable to me.
It exists, lightbulbs don’t run on magical ponies do they?
I am a physics professor (theorist). Long ago, I did a short internship at the State Department, where I learned a lot about Chernobyl and other international nuclear issues. I’ve been interested in civilian nuclear safety at some level since.
I’m pretty worried about that fuel pool, too. I do not understand how it could have been unaffected by the explosions in units 1 and 2. That’s why (somewhere upthread) I said that we should be on the lookout for reports of dispersed actinides.
“Let there be light”
Kyodo crawler again: “Fukushima No 2 reactor still unstable (6:17)”
Thanks Bill. I love nerds! (I don’t know about Mensa, never looked into it, but I’m fairly intelligent and sorta a techie nerd.) And my love was systems analysis, but the computer problem sort, and I’m a long way away from that, since I spent most of my career in IT management.
Thanks, lobster! Isn’t it interesting how we come to where we are today, expertise-wise?
O.K. My bad.
I don’t like this much. (emphasis added)
…but you’d think he’d be more inclusive..like maybe “Let there be radio-emissions…”
He means the damage to TEPCO.
Does anyone know for sure if the image in slide #9 is the top view of the cutaway that we have been using? I.e., are the walls in view on the lower image of slide #9 the walls that no longer exist?
heh
Kyodo again:
“BREAKING NEWS: Partial defect found in No. 2 reactor’s container (Edano) 6:58 AM local time”
Presumably this is very bad news. We need details.
I didn’t use the /s tag.
I’m going to drive home and catch up in an hour or so.
If anyone can find more info on this “defect”, it is the most critical issue on the table that we know about.
Bill, how do they determine that the fuel rods are literally melting?
I understand how melt in the fuel rod casing material is detected but how about the fuel rods themselves?
And can they reasonably determine the % of the rods which have melted away?
During Three Mile Island, the top half of the fuel rods had literally melted into pile of corium which sat at the bottom of the reactor vessel. But if I remember correctly, they didn’t find that out till well after the event had more or less ended.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI1VKcIawsQ
Did any of the other power plants have the same power loss problems as Daiichi?
Kyodo news reporting new blast at Fukushima site.
Time of report is now (“Breaking News”) but time of blast is reported to be 6:10 AM, which is about two hours ago.
I don’t understand.
Damage to “suppression pool”? from Kyodo News.
Spent fuel?
Lower torus?
NYT now echoing report of new blast. No details yet anywhere that I can find.
Bill, lobster, et al.,
I’ve been reading as much as I could find all afternoon. This thread is one of the most informative I’ve found. Thanks for your service.
Another thread I found that is quite technical–engineers will like it, non-engineers will not–is this one at BraveNewClimate: http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/12/japan-nuclear-earthquake/. Beware, it is definitely written by pro-nukes with an agenda, but as best I can tell, on things engineering and scientific, they have full respect for truth. And the depth of the information there is way more than I was able to find searching the net elsewhere all afternoon. FWIW.
Also, FWIW, IMHO, the folks on the US west coast need not evacuate just yet.
My conclusion after 4-5 hours of reading: these nukes will never operate again, but the casualties will likely be limited to a fraction of the operating staff on site. I have full respect for the engineers and technicians still working to manage this catastrophe at Fukujima, and regret any loss of life among them. But I do think we must simultaneously keep in mind the unfathomable loss of life from the earthquake and the resulting tsunami, which I fear will be in the 10′s of 1000′s.
There should be no more explosions unless they are (in my opinion) of a new character. So this sounds bad. But it is being reported two hours after it happened. Bizarre.
NIRS: Nuclear Information and resource service:
http://www.nirs.org/press/06-30-2005/1
“Washington, DC July 30, 2005 The National Academies of Science released an over 700-page report yesterday on the risks from ionizing radiation. The BEIR VII or seventh Biological Effects of Ionizing Radiation report on “Health Risks from Exposure to Low Levels of Ionizing Radiation” reconfirmed the previous knowledge that there is no safe level of exposure to radiation—that even very low doses can cause cancer. Risks from low dose radiation are equal or greater than previously thought. The committee reviewed some additional ways that radiation causes damage to cells.
Among the reports conclusions are:
There is no safe level or threshold of ionizing radiation exposure.
Even exposure to background radiation causes some cancers. Additional exposures cause additional risks.”
all footnoted.
New report: radiation rising after latest blast (Kyodo News Service) 8:16 AM Japan time
NHK also talking about new blast (via TPM) but NHK says no increase in radiation.
NHK: Damage suspected. Blast may be rupture and break of the pressure vessel inside.
(My comment: This is very bad if it proves to be correct. Next stage of meltdown. Nothing left but the concrete containment and no way to cool without dispersal of more dangerous forms of radiation.)
I have heard today, that pilots were exposed to radiation, but they just washed it off with soap and water.
I wonder, did they wash out their mouths, throats, intestines, bowel, and lungs.
During American atomic tests, soldiers, and pilots were used as guinea pigs, exposed to atomic blast dust, and were told to just wash it off with soap and water.
NHK: Looking at the chart. Suppression pool is the torus pool (NOT SPENT FUEL, THAT IS GOOD).
NHK: Pressure inside vessel has dropped dramatically.
965 micro-Sv radiation reading now. “Quite high”
Repair very hard to perform.
Onsite operators are told to evacuate because they cannot stay for hours.
Very bad turn of events.
BBC World Service just reported that radation levels were over 900 but have tailed off into the 800′s.
Go to NHK here to follow for yourself.
“Big sound” this morning. Leak could be liquid or vapor.
2.7m length of fuel rods is currently exposed.
Radiation level reduced to 850 micro-Sv.
Impact on suppression pool is driving radiation.
TEPCO personnel all evacuated from site.
Damage to “pressure separation room”.
Excuse me: “Pressure suppression room”
Meteorological Agency: North wind blowing (toward Tokyo).
Wind blowing toward Tokyo, but this is uncertain because of damage from tsunami and earthquake.
Seawater injection continuing. All OTHER personnel evacuated.
BBC World Service said they “think” the new big explosion is at reactor 2. They also said that reactor 2 water level only covering half the core.
My understanding:
Pressure vessel has been breached. Still may have concrete containment.
Back to NHK:
First accident of this type in Japan.
Suppression pool controls pressure. Damaged now.
Now saying … change of my understanding … concrete containment breached.
My comment:
Very bad. Not Chernobyl, but very bad.
http://www.ratical.org/radiation/CNR/synapse.html
January 20 1994. interview:
” John William Gofman is professor emeritus of Medical Physics at UC Berkeley, and lecturer for the Department of Medicine, UCSF. While getting As PhD in physics at Berkeley in the 1940s, Gofman proved the slow and fast neutron fissionability of uranium-233. At the request of J. Robert Oppenheimer, Gofman helped produce plutonium (not even a quarter-milligram existed at the time) for the Manhattan Project. He got his MD from UCSF in 1946 (winning the Gold-Headed Cane Award, presented to the senior who most fully personifies a “true physician”) and began his research on coronary heart disease. In 1963 the Atomic Energy Commission asked him to establish a Biomedical Research Division at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory to evaluate the health effects of all types of nuclear radiation. By 1969, however, the AEC and the “radiation community” were downplaying his warnings about the risks of radiation . Gofman returned to full-time teaching at Berkeley, switching to emeritus status in 1973.
This interview was conducted by Shobhit Arora and Fred Gardner. It began with discussion of a recent item from the Wall St. Journal that read, “The White House was surprised and chagrined — by Energy Secretary O’Leary’s comment about paying compensation to atomic-testing victims. With a super-tight budget, the White House is now scrambling to head off a costly new entitlement.”
Gofman: I have for 25 years been an intense critic of the Department of Energy. I say this because Hazel O’Leary stands for compassion, candor, and credibility — not because I’ve changed my mind about the DOE, which I think is one of the worst organizations in the history of our government. Unless it’s cleaned out we’re going to have worse things in the future. The human experimentation that has been done is bad, and it’s good that that’s being cleared away. But for 25 years the DOE has not shown any concern for the health of Americans. Their concern has been for the health of the DOE. Their falsehoods concerning the hazards of ionizing radiation have put not thousands of people at risk, not millions of people, but billions of people.
Gofman: The worst-case scenario is this. Ever since its inception, the Atomic Energy Commission — then called ERDA, then called DOE — has had one thing in mind: “Our program is sacrosanct.” And they recognize, as I’ve recognized, that their entire program will live or die based upon one thing. If the public should come to learn the truth about ionizing radiation, nuclear energy and the atomic energy program of DOE is going to be dead. Because the people of this country — and other countries — are not going to tolerate what it implies. The key thing — it’s everything in the DOE program — is: “We must prove that low doses of radiation are not harmful.” They have been conducting a propaganda war, saying there’s a safe dose when there has never been any valid evidence for a safe dose of radiation. Yet the DOE and others continue to talk about their “zero-risk model.”
After Chernobyl, I estimated that there were going to be 475,000 fatal cancers throughout Europe — with another 475,000 cancers that are not fatal.”
NHK:
Level of radiation will not cause immediate damage to human health. But if there is damage as we are describing, this is very serious.
News conference starting imminently. Idle chatter while waiting.
NHK:
Now talking about 2000 micro-Sv !?
Wider evacuations may be necessary. Wait for more informations.
TEPCO news conference
We regret that we are causing concern to people of Japan.
if there was a two hour delay in the reporting, might this explain the earlier announcement of the PM heading up an integrated HQ? they wanted that news out first?
TEPCO:
At 6:14 AM Unit 2, blast was heard near suppression pool. Pressure began to fall in the suppression pool.
Continuing water injection, but all operators not engaged in this operation are being evacuated.
No significant change in parameters with regard to container vessels.
Apologizing for causing concerns and inconvenience.
Unit 2 reactor background:
March 15, 7:15 AM coolant system failed and unit 4 reactor (???) and average temperature < 100 degrees. Confirmed.
March 15, 12:35 AM, complied with Article 10 obligations.
Q: Now ordering evacuations of operators. Why apologizing? What is going on? Is this bad?
A: Not necessarily a serious scenario. Apologizing again.
Seriousness of incident: we apologize for concerns and inconvenience.
Q: Answer us!
Thanks Lobster, Please keep us posted. I was confused about the events reported as “breaking” at #2. (Kyodo)
Q. Nature of this accident is different. Is it very serious? What are the facts? Not your feelings.
A. We’d like to share with you the information. The blast was heard near the pressure vessel. First of all, it was heard. We checked the parameters and we found out that the pressure was falling in the suppression pool, indicating damage.
That caused the evacuation of some staff.
Q. Evac carried out for first time now?
A. Right after the explosion, other parameters show no big changes. Also, water level has not changed. It was 2.7m too low before and after the explosion. Those are the facts that we know. [me: Is the gauge stuck?]
Q. When did the evacuation start and where to? How many left?
A. We would like to confirm the actual numbers and explain later.
Q. Is this evacuation to avoid radiation?
A. That is one thing. The radioactive reading has gone up?
Q. What is the difference between unit 1 and unit 3?
A. Reactor pressure has gone down with unit 3. But we have heard a sound.
[me: confusing 1 and 2, I think]
In any case, the evacuation decision was made at the site.
Q. Which came first, the damage or the explosion?
A. The damage to the suppression pool is not clear to us specifically. We only know the pressure has gone down. The govt is the one saying there is damage.
[me: remember this is a TEPCO press conference]
FOX reporting higher levels of radiation in a town south of the reactor, which would synch with the current wind direction.
A. Maybe there is a problem with the pressure gauge and no damage to the pressure suppression pool.
Q. What happens to those who did not evacuate?
A. They do not have to stay there to inject water, but they are staying to observe that.
Q How many are still onsite?
A. Around 50 are still on site.
Q Others have evacuated?
A. Yes.
Q. What happens if there is a hole?
A. If there is a hole in the suppression pool, the steam that goes there. .. garbled, so there is no change in how the radiation is released to the outside.
Q. Why did you decide to evacuate if this is not bad?
A. Onsite decision.
Q. So far you are telling us there is still pressure in the pressure suppression pool. Are you saying the pressure has been stabilized?
A. There are two chambers. At this time, there is damage maybe in suppression pool. The pressure value after the blast is known. [no number given] sea water injection continuing. Water level was very low but is beginning to rise.
2.7 m exposed according to latest data.
Q. Earlier, you are injecting water into the pressure vessel, but if there is a crack in the suppression pool, even if you continue injecting, it does not circulate, right?
A. Even with crack, there is a chance to raise the water level.
Q. That does not make sense.
breaking away now (NHK breaking away)
They didn’t say how many were evacuated but they later state the 50 staff remain on site.
NHK:
TEPCO does not understand the situation.
Chief Cabinet Secretary says Units 1 and 3 have had their operation staff evacuated. The suppression pool was source of recent blast. Something is wrong with the container vessel. This is the last line of defense. We do not yet know if it is actually broken, but an explosive sound from this area may lead to radiation and leaking so there is a risk of a leak.
Inside the reactor, the water level has not increased. This is not happening. Staff remain to accomplish this but a very serious situation is developing at the power plant.
NHK: Pressure has dropped to atmospheric.
Kyodo: Radiation recorded at Ibaraki now. [Someone get a map! It is south of Fukushima. How far?]
NHK: There appear to be many sites of damage to the containment vessel. [The NHK speaker is a non-industry expert.] Not clear that a large radiation loss will happen immediately.
Water injection will continue. Very necessary.
According to info we have here, the water level is not stable. Yes, that is true.
Recap: Unit 2 experienced explosion of sorts. Pressure inside dropped. Radiation in vicinity went up suddenly. Non-critical staff evacuated.
Radiation reading rose to approximately 1000 micro-Sv (a little less).
[me: Fuel rods cannot be exposed for as long as ten hours. By my recollection, they are over that time limit around now?]
We need a new thread. This is not going to stop anytime soon.
Kyodo: 1,300 people isolated in Miyagi Prefecture, Kesennuma.
[Where is that? Is it related to radiation?]
Whenever you hear the term “meltdown” in a news story, blog, or interview you can be sure what they’re saying is FUD.
NYT is reporting damage to the pressure vessel (inside the concrete containment).
We are in a period of confusion.
fyi- scarecrow has a new thread up.
What is FUD? I haven’t seen that one before. Like FUBAR?
Off we go, then!
FUD = Fear Uncertainty Doubt
I can’t find it. Where is it?
I only see an old one. I’ll stay here for now.
scarecrow thread where? can’t find it.
I guess I’m self-EPUing if there really is another thread.
scarecrow post is third diary down on “most recent diary” at myfdl:
http://my.firedoglake.com/scarecrow/2011/03/14/japan-nuclear-watch-third-explosion-possible-cracked-containment-at-unit-2/
Kyodo:
TEPCO now reporting 8,127 micro-Sv per hour at Fukushima.
Nikkei falling fast.