Tweet
TV news loves conflict. It’s exciting! What they don’t love is doing actual research and real reporting about the conflict. “We’ll leave that for the suckers at Frontline six months from now. Look! Behind you! A fire and people in hoodies running away! Are you getting all this?”
Information like who is causing the conflict, their motives and objectives are not really their forte. They do love the shots of rocks and tear gas being thrown, they don’t really care who is throwing them.
Last night there were some acts of vandalism in Oakland. I’d like to know who specifically caused them and what their motivations are. The MSM aren’t going to look into it. The police might, but when they do it will happen at their pace and won’t be telling us who they caught and finding out why they did it. The right wing media isn’t going to do it, they will assume the worst and tar everyone with that brush.
Time for us to do the identification of this crew of vandals now.
Helpfully the media and others have provided us with lots of video footage of the vandalism. Here are some samples of video.
Russia Today
CBS in San Francisco
KQED
Contra Costa Times
Oakland Tribune
When you slow some of them down you might be able to spot some identifying tattoos or piercings. I noticed that one vandal’s mask slipped while he was held by some OWS protesters who did not want him to vandalize a store. Maybe you recognize him. Maybe he is bragging about his vandalism on his Facebook page like American Spectator Editor Patrick Howley did after he rushed the guards at the Air and Space museum. That article, combined with Charles Grapski’s intrepid research, confirmed he was there and what he did.
If you positively identify someone let us know. Show your work. If it’s a good identification we can contact them and ask how they think their actions helped the Occupy Wall Street protests. If they just felt the need to smash stuff under the banner of OWS then their identities should be given to the people whose property was vandalized so they can pay for damages.
FAQ
I know that there are concerns about doing this like: “Will identifying them make me a traitor to the movement?”
These people might consider themselves part of the movement, but their actions are clearly not in line with OWS principles of peaceful assembly. They, by their actions, removed themselves from the movement and need to bear responsibility for their actions. After all, when some players in Wall Street caused the value of property to drop because of their irresponsible actions, the Wall Street community identified the culprits and turned them over to the authorities for punishment so that their entire communities’ reputation wouldn’t be tarnished. (HA! I slay myself. But seriously, this points out how WS acts when people in their industry break the law, they circle the wagons vs. shunning the bad actors. That explains why we have to identify these people and turn them over to the authorities because that is precisely what WS doesn’t do)
Q: “What if I identify the wrong person?”
Well that is why you need to show your work.
Same tattoo? Bragging on Facebook? Photos of him before he put on his mask or after he took it off? All the clues that lead you to connect identities need to be there. You’ve all watched enough police procedural shows to know how this works. You are making a case, get evidence.
Good luck and drop me a line if you identify someone.
LLAP
Spocko
spockosemail @ gmail
Updated: 11/04 Today my friend Sara Robinson wrote an excellent piece on dealing with people with over-the-top behavior. I think this will be useful context for thinking about dealing with outliers.
Occupy’s Asshole Problem: Flashbacks from An Old Hippie
Here’s an excerpt
1. Let’s be clear: It is absolutely OK to insist on behavior norms. #Occupy may be a DIY movement — but it also stands for very specific ideas and principles. Central among these is: We are here to reassert the common good. And we have a LOT of work to do. Being open and accepting does not mean that we’re obligated to accept behavior that damages our ability to achieve our goals. It also means that we have a perfect right to insist that people sharing our spaces either act in ways that further those goals, or go somewhere else until they’re able to meet that standard.
138 Comments
Go Spocko!
for whomever has the time to dig, might want to start cross referencing G8 summit violence.
Here, no need to snitch, I found them for you. Happy, now?
“The Boston Sons of Liberty were forthright in their defense of freedom, vigilant about tyranny and resolute about the common cause. They had good reasons for protesting the Tea Act and questioning the sovereignty of the British Parliament.
They were also, on occasion, a bunch of bullying jerks.
The Bostonians tore down the houses of government officials in 1765, threw bricks at customs officers in 1768 and provoked fatal gunfire in the streets in 1770. They ostracized businessmen, threw mud at party guests and frightened women and children in their homes.
Then, in 1773, the Sons of Liberty turned their ire toward the East India Company’s hand-picked local agents and tried to pressure them into resigning. Radical newspaper writers promised that anyone who helped land the tea would face an unpleasant visit from “The Mohawks” or “The Committee for Tarring and Feathering.” After attacks on their homes and warehouses, Boston’s local tea agents feared for their lives to such a degree that they fled to an island in the harbor for military protection.
On the night of Dec. 16, 1773, dozens of men wrapped themselves in blankets and covered their faces in lampblack and soot. Desperate to keep the tea from being unloaded, they acted on principle but declined to show their faces. At the time, they hardly intended to set a revolution in motion.
These Bostonians boarded three privately owned ships and committed a blatant act of property destruction. During the event, the boarders stripped, kicked and cuffed an Irishman who had joined the tea party but then tried to pocket some tea for himself. For the next 50 years, the tea destroyers refused to reveal their identities, perhaps fearing civil suit but also worrying that their actions might not be worthy of universal acclaim.”
online.wsj.com
Forgot to add the punchline to the quote above:
“No one was killed at the Boston Tea Party. For this reason, the event has inspired some of the world’s strongest advocates for civil disobedience, such as Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr.”
Thanks so much for your contribution, DT.
You’ll understand, I’m sure, that your misapprehension of history, particularly the differences between the Revolution-era colonies and modern America, especially as affected by the social complexities and technology of the last 50 years, lead us to ignore you.
Maybe you could color us some pictures of those colorful events in Boston 236 years ago.
I think outing the provocateurs wherever possible should be done. When the black hoods and masks and bricks come up they should be pulled away by anyone nearby and photographed and the resulting imagery catalogued publicly as part of a sort of ‘least wanted list’ so they can be identified and dealt with. Those of us opposed to violence vastly outnumber the provocateurs, we can physically overpower them with sheer numbers. They are easy to spot in a crowd, they are all young males wearing clean black hoodies and black bandanas. If they are carrying ID or credit/debit cards and the like it’d be good to take photographs of that as well if possible. Making the violent provocateurs names and identities public would add real gravitas to the movement.
We rightly berate the police for protecting their own bad actors from accountability; we should hold our own to the same standards of accountability. If you don’t have accountability for those acting out in a violent manner then, just as the case with law enforcement, the culpability extends to those failing to act against the bad actors within the group. I suspect we’ll find some of the outed will turn out to be people deliberately trying to discredit the movement either acting singly or as organized or even paid or official agents.
Kurt.
Thank you for saying that so eloquently!
This could be the kind of thing that could be posted on some OWS websites so that the crowd sourcing of faces could begin.
I’ll let pass your “miscomprehension” and misuse of the word of “misapprehension,” as well as your obvious discomfort at being outed as a reactionary tool of the PTB, (I shouldn’t really be too surprised though, given that your username is associated with one of the biggest reactionary tools of modern times, should I?), I will also happily advise you that your simple addition is also faulty. 1773 + 236 = 2009.
While you state the grindingly obvious, that there are differences between the Colonies then and the US today, the perspective of history may indeed look back on the events and the participants of last night’s activities far differently than do the wannabe snitches of today. And the fact is, snitches are timeless…unfortunately.
The problem with the OWS movement is that like the Tea Party it is too much about what it is against and too little about what it is for. That leaves both movements vulnerable to anarchy.
You need an agenda and you need leadership. If you can’t find some leaders, the thugs will become the leaders.
above response intended for “GannonGuckert.”
See also Jane Stillwater’s Black Bloc — or BlackWater?
check out the shoes
And just what the fuck does that have to do with Oakland in 2011?
The problem with that is that anybody physically restraining these guys is ripe for an assault or battery charge, to say nothing of being sued by the person man-handled.
If they can be temporarily restrained without undue violence long enough to be IDed I don’t see any likelihood of assault charges being filed against people who participate. The courts are unlikely to side with the people throwing rocks at police and businesses. It would create bad press. Really bad.
“…too little about what it is for.”
Is peace, social and economic justice too broad?
You can only restrain somebody if you’ve witnessed them commit a crime and law enforcement is not around. You can make a citizen’s arrest but you’d damn well better have your ducks in a row.
Come Catman, you must be able to add 2+2 better than my friend Jeff Gannon-Guckert here, can’t you?
How about provocative acts of civil disobedience perpetrated against state sponsored economic injustice, and the crime of “violence” to property owned by monopolistic companies who are taking unfair economic advantage of the people?
If that’s the only connection I think I’d look for a more recent example. It’s not like nobody has thought of the 1%ers pulling a stunt like that.
Also, see Elliott’s comment below.
I think the risk of prosecution for restraining provocateurs for identification or to deliver after identification into LE custody would be no worse than the risk for general civil disobedience in a demonstration. There is in fact probably a greater chance those doing so would be too toxic a prosecution to pursue. It’d certainly be a politically extremely risky move to pursue a prosecution against people simply trying to maintain order.
Great values, but they need more structure. It’s way too utopian. OWS is going to turn into your garden variety drunken post-game rampage if it doesn’t get a grip on the reality of crowd dynamics. Vandalism is neither peaceful nor just, just juvenile.
The WTC demonstrations in Seattle had leaders, and yet these same sorts of folks – morons in dark hoodies – managed to turn them from a huge peaceful demonstration into a riot.
In fact, they’ve showed up at nearly every major demonstration regardless of how those demonstrations were organized.
I see no reason to believe your premise, and there are at least a few counterexamples.
You’re automatically linking the vandals to the movement.
Yours are the complaints of the establishment. Occupy is doing things the way they want to do it, not the way people who aren’t participating want it.
Good idea, Spocko. I don’t know anyone in the Bay area, but hopefully folks who do can pick a few out. Pointless violence can dissipate any message.
Well, that’s a fine point if all you want is a big do your own thing party. Hey, why not. I spent a good part of my college years in that place.
But if you actually want to change the estabishment you’ve got a problem.
Meanwhile, craven centrists are cooking back room deals to cheat me out of Medicare and cheat kids out of education. They are happy OWS is a distraction.
Hey, Spocko
Good on you for staying out front on this. Thanks for the leadership–from taking it to KSFO to finding the hidden costs of “teaparty” rallies to helping Occupy defend itself from agents provacateurs.
FunnyDiva
Then the movement needs a way to expose them and deal with them or they will destroy the movement. If your organizing principle is essentially anarchy don’t be surprised if anarchists show up.
Thanks! And thanks for remembering!
Oh, don’t leave out the contributions of Law Enforcement to the chaos. Didn’t that report come out within the last few weeks?
Front page of the Seattle Times this morning–SPD pepper-spraying into a crowd. W00T, go, occifers, way to NOT learn anything.
PS: did you know that Jamie Dimon is one of the Good Guys of the Banking World? Me neither.
Well, that earlier band of vandals helped incite a revolution and inspire Gandhi and MLK, Jr.
Today people are getting all excited and diverted into attempts to identify and snitch on the “vandals” and are now successfully distracted into playing cop instead of celebrating the biggest leftist/progressive movement victory in about 40 years.
This sounds like someone wanting to encourage the chasing of our own tails into paranoia. Very Nixonian-type response, IMHO.
Of course, there will be continuous attempts by the authorities to cause incitement within our ranks. The more success and the larger the movement the more attempts to infiltrate by the cops and the more further left elements will begin participating, perhaps in ways that milder progressives won’t condone or appreciate. Fine.
But playing at becoming 1984-style movement detectives won’t help Occupy deal with this reality, it will only serve to create mistrust and amplify small divisions into larger ones to produce the very result intended by the PTB.
History may, just as likely, look back on these vandals as killing the revolution in its cradle. OWS was started in peace, and the real OWS people, the ones out there suffering all this time, want it to continue in peace. If these vandal punks want to act out, they should have the balls to do it by themselves, without hiding in and tarnishing the reputation of the legitimate OWS movement. Spare me your (anticipated) idiotic response.
You’ll have to know the whole alphabet and be able to look up “misapprehend” in a dictionary to uncover what you’re talking about.
Besides, the Boston Tea Party was 237 years ago, not my typo-ed 236. (You’ll want to study up on the months of the year if you want to understand).
Insofar as you apparently share most fundamentalists’ inability to do humor, much less satire, I’ll go ahead and tell you that the gannonguckert nom is a sarcastic, phony-innocence jab at the obvious jerk from a few years back. Oh, did that go right over your head, too?
Oh yes, instead of actually reaching any goals for social or economic justice, lets focus on funneling people into the prison-industrial complex and then go home congratulating ourselves for committing human violence in response to property damage. OWS has to supersede the mainstream media, not attempt to win it’s favor.
I’m totally up for pointing and shouts of “Howley!” when a vandal is spotted.
People who wear masks are cowards or provocateurs–possibly Young Republicans. The legitimate OWS protesters do not hide their identities and for this they take serious risks. Expose these hooded phonies before they damage the movement.
Given a choice between –Occupy happening or not happening—the fact that it is happening is a hopeful thing. The idea that there are no goals is propoganda from the 1%.
The goals are clear, break up the banks and protect consumers. Limit how much banks can gamble away our earnings, and charge us for debt.
Basic stuff.
The fact that people are actually going to a place to physically occupy it for the sheer purpose of reminding the world that they are taxpaying citizens whose voice counts—is a beautiful, American thing. *This* is the hope I was looking for around Obamatime a few years back.
*This* is it, because it’s organic, it’s not being helped or pushed by media hype, it’s a beginning and a process and not an end, and it’s absolutely necessary to get attention–
Because nothing else has worked!!
Yes, the goal is greater than marching. The protests are the physical demonstrations of support for policy change. The obstacles to this policy change are great. But these are your people, Greenbell, fighting for that education and medicare. They’re our people…and while you may believe OWS is a “distraction”, that may not be the ultimate fate of this movement. We don’t know yet, that’s the future.
And I’m really glad feet are in the street on these issues. Just because nothing else has worked.
I like it!
How about yelling “Breitbart!” when someone smells a setup?
This could be fun!
Did anyone identify the reckless driver who killed an occupier in oakland last night? twitter had a picture of him. Apparently the cops didn’t try to apprehend him, since he was doing their work for them.
i’m no fan of snitching, that’s for sure, but when people conduct themselves in ways that have damaging repercussions on other people, I think they should have the metaphorical stones to show their faces. And if they don’t, I think the rest of us are justified in removing their masks and demanding that they look us in the eye.
Exactly, more or less. That kind of social pressure actually works for these types of situations.
You’re welcome
Credit and Credibility where they’re due, man.
FDL (Occupy Supply) made Huff Post.
This is very very interesting. OWS is an organic entity and growing in directions of its own. Has anyone asked one of these black hoodies who and what they are ? They seem pretty organized with black flags and all..anarchists I see. Very Young White Anarchists. Interesting.
Donkeytale makes a certain sense. But these people are putting the pacifists in physical danger that they are not ready to deal with.
Violence against property of the oppressors is still (barely) within the parameters of non violent civil disobedience. Sabotage is acceptable at a certain level of the struggle. Many believe that graffiti is illegal. Many do not. Political graffiti is a powerful medium.
It seems to me that the OWS people could talk with the Anarchists and come to some kind of agreement. Maybe they could not work within the official demonstrations so as to not put the OWS people in physical danger.
Wow. Now there’s a sub-species of concern trolling I hadn’t seen yet.
As Phoenix Woman pointed out on Kevin’s post today, lets identify the ‘black bloc’ members…
Here’s one of her excellent links…
Oakland, Toronto and black bloc violence…
Is it possible to get images of the Oakland police? Could we compare them to the vandals.
Here is a video showing the cops infiltrating Occupy Oakland.
http://bsnorrell.blogspot.com/2011/10/copwatch-occupy-oakland-beware-of.html
It is not unreasonable to think that they might send in agents provocateurs.
Well, I got the point about your being an “obvious jerk” quite clearly.
[:o)
The satire and the “phony-innocence” behind your choice of handle didn’t register.
As well, my initial comment to Spocko was also a stab at humour, albeit the pointed and cutting variety. See my responses here to Southern Dragon for my reasons for believing this attempt at playing citizen movement police is self-defeating and paranoid.
I’ll concede the definition of “misapprehend” but deny that I did, in fact, misapprehend.
So do you support committing property damage?
If not, what are your suggestions to stop it? I don’t think that social or economic justice comes about by sheltering anarchists who act in a way that has proven unproductive and simply promotes a public and private backlash. It’s not the media who I care about, it’s the people who are watching the vandalism and then discredit the whole movement as thugs.
There are also the people who want to self police for multiple reasons, including safety of vulnerable members. If the police have opted out of that role then the community needs to step in.
I don’t want to funnel anyone into the “prison-industrial complex”
but by not developing methods to limit and contain these kind of actions we are guaranteeing the police the opportunity to do exactly that indiscriminately.
Good. FDL/Occupy Supply has given me a way to put some money where my convictions are, and I think they deserve a LOT of credit for their “matching” contribution of effort/time/organization. That goes for all the FDL-ers who’ve shown up to help out Kevin G.
Excellent point!
Yes, but if they’ve got you fighting Law Enforcement instead of Wall Street they’ve successfully destroyed your message.
Speaking of Law Enforcement, the Democratic Senator running for reelection in my state has ZERO to say about OWS but she wants me to know she has helped form the BIPARTISAN LAW ENFORCEMENT CAUCUS.
Couldn’t you folks at least give me a primary challenger so I can vote against her? My Social Security and Medicare may depend on it.
Mary, do you have any word on how Occupy Sacramento is doing? I want to help if need be.
That is very gracious of you; I’ll apologize for being too quick to get snotty.
The subject matter is serious; I hate snitches as much as anyone.
My concern is that we have a truly organic movement, loaded with passionate, but peacefully-inclined folks, and I hate to give the MSM extra opportunities to subvert the cause in service to their corporate goals.
I think they need help with getting more folks there. It seems to have fizzled a little.
And then what? You are going to turn the agents of the police into the police?
That’ll teach ‘em.
It is very reasonable to assume that the Movement will be infiltrated. Every popular movement in history has been.
Peaceful OWS protesters outnumber those few wearing masks, those trying to hide their identity, those maybe even trying to incite violence, commit vandalism, by thousands to one.
Hopefully, the peaceful OWS protesters upon seeing anyone in their midst wearing a mask will unmask them, as peacefully as possible, because there is every possibility that those wearing masks are right-wing plants. IOW, peaceful OWS protesters should treat each “hooded” person as if the peaceful OWS protesters were at a “hooded” KKK gathering.
There is no excuse for this kind of vandalism. It is a crime and it hurts the movement. This is intended to be a peaceful protest. When violence like this takes place, it becomes the story, the message is lost and all the participants are reflected in the light of the criminals. It is possible some of these are infiltrators trying to discredit the movement. Whoever they are, lets hope they are identified quickly and dealt with appropriately.
When a woman is attacked in public, some recommend that she yell “Fire!” because that is the most likely call for help to be heeded.
It’s probably enough to yell “He’s a Cop! Take his picture!” And let all the peaceful people take pictures and video. If he’s a lone anarchist bent on violence, s/he’ll prefer not to have evidence of his crimes and he’ll flee the scene. If s/he is a cop, the same applies. The perp may not necessarily be id’d, but s/he’ll fear being exposed, and that will stop the behavior.
oh, wow.nevermind…how naive of me..just read Jane Stillwater’s ..”Black bloc or Blackwater” and realize that she may well be absolutely correct. They are amazingly organized…too amazingly.
And their graffiti sucks. Also they should be doing this at night with their really nice little black hoodies and masks on. Quite a coordinated uniform they have too.
Forget talking to them…duct tape them instead !
Xargaw. Well said. The story is not about the violence not what they are protesting.
When I train people to ask questions at town halls and they get arrested for asking a question, the question they ask gets ignored- the arrest is all that is reported. That is because the media need conflict to make “news” fine, but a smart protesters can use the news to also keep injecting their message to the media. It’s harder to do that when there is nobody who is looking out for the message of the group.
If you don’t provide a narrative, the media will, or your competition. The police have spokes people, the mayor has spokespeople, the OWS protesters? Not so easy to do, so the media go to random people and ask what they think.
No silly, but the information could be spread throughout the country via the internet. You know, like we have been doing here for years.
I think it would be a good thing if they had 1 or 2 people who speak to the press and represent the group. Otherwise the press can talk with people who are there for reasons not at all in line with OWS.
Exactly my thought, you see someone throwing stones, you make a citizen’s arrest, pull off their mask, photograph the perp, surround them and corral them, grab their backpack and hold them, look for a police officer and testify. Self defense in the most basic terms, these creeps are going to get someone hurt.
One of the finer tools of the movement is the People’s Mic.
This vandal crap doesn’t happen at General Assemblies, which is where the People’s Mic is most often used. It happens at the marches, and by people in masks.
I have found you can change what people chant when they march if you just keep chanting it. I’ll try this next Saturday when I see more than one person or a group in kerchiefs/masked:
“Masks aren’t what democracy looks like!”
These black-box assholes ruin every peaceful assembly.OWS must stop and expose them if they wish to have a large degree of self-policing autonomy.These bullshit anarchists target small stores and public property to create media imagery that undermines movements but never take on the ruling order.It would seem that we would hear of them whacking a Supreme or a bankster if they were really raging against the machine with a violent ethos.They seem quite content raging against puppetistas.I actually believe these are mostly rats working for cops,but it doesn’t really matter.
I am waiting for the 5:30 KTVU/Oakland news. They have gone through the 80 people arrested and are going to identify where they are fro. Also there was film of the enormous boulders being thrown at the cops and they have film of the Mercedes hitting two demonstrators. Of the local media, I feel they have been the most out in front and giving a little more time to the Occupy camp and making real analysis about the difference between the hidden faces and the Ocuppy folks who will operate in the light.
No offense, but what we have been doing here for years has been a lot less effective than what you’all did in Oakland yesterday in about 12 hours, the actions of a few anarchists/agents provocateur notwithstanding.
So, OK, we prove conclusively that the movement has been infiltrated by the cops, and spread the information across the internet, which serves to confirm the suspicions of most progressives and leftists (including me) that the movement indeed has been infiltrated by the cops.
Then what?
What if we discover eventually that the movement was infiltrated by….anarchists? Or we can’t prove anything conclusively? Do you honestly think this knowledge either way will have any positive practical effect on the movement?
You might assume it would, but it might also come after the movement has destroyed itself with mistrust and recriminations, or wasted a considerable amount of time and effort, all resulting from an overweening desire to preserve some sort of high ground of righteous purity.
Allz I’m sayin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrvMzqopHH0&feature=player_embedded
http://www.infowars.com/who-controls-the-black-bloc-anarchists/
http://www.infowars.com/peaceful-protesters-attacked-arrested-while-cop-car-arsonists-left-alone/
http://www.infowars.com/provocateur-cops-caught-disguised-as-anarchists-at-g20/
These “professional anarchists” are used by the 1% the way firefighters use fire to fight a fire.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/nature/natural-disasters/fight-fire-with-fire1.htm
Snitching? Really? Shame on you.
Good for you. Thank you.
Leadership? Ye gods, hasn’t there been about enough of that already. Part of the problem that OWS is reacting against–and providing a practical alternative to–is too much reliance on leadership. Leadership is for those lacking the thought, courage and responsibility to do something other than be led.
The organizing principles of OWS are not anarchy unless one’s definition of anarchy is synonymous with chaos. There are any number of organizational possibilities between leadership and chaos.
Interesting discussion, has anyone else noticed how many fall into the trap of using the PTB approved vocabulary. When the Men In Blue, black too, attack protesters it’s called confrontation, when someone breaks a window or sets a bonfire it’s called violence. People don’t matter but property is sacred.
Throwing rocks at police is violent but is throwing back TG canisters?
Provocateurs and misguided troublemakers are going to be a problem going forward but i believe creative ways to counter them will be developed.
Why not run yourself? Or, whatever state you live in, start organizing to primary her.
Who is it you exactly mean by “you folks”?
‘We are the 99%’ is a message that resonates with people who feel that the system is not working for them. To OWS – why spark some crazy witch hunt to target people who share your goals but not your methods. Then you’ll be the 98%, then the 97%…
To Black Block, if you guys think this tactic is legit, why are you only using it at times when it can screw things up for this movement? Why not take a holiday while OWS is trying to do something?
Did you read any of the comments? Man, those are some nasty people.
I guarantee they will identify at least some of those vandals as police or as conservative activists doing their best to destroy OWS from within.
Who are these cowardly masked men all in black uniforms like the cops, afraid to show their faces and hiding in a school of fish?
Indeed. Let them damage property. Let them wreck corporate offices and boardrooms. Let them break into the stock market. Let them damage the property of the Pentagon. Let them take a shit on the White House steps.
Until this happens they should be accorded the respect of any other violent, anti-democratic coward. Their efforts are currently no better than those of the police, and they occupy that place on the political spectrum where the inflexible authority of the hard right becomes indistinguishable from the inflexible authority of the hard left.
Plus, these masked men give anarchy a bad name.
“Thank you masked man”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CebRfSFnWGM
It’s the asshole of the internet for a reason, but they’re pretty good at this sort of thing if you can get them to do it… http://www.4chan.org/
That’s a spectacular point. It seems clear that the police do try to infiltrate these movements. What about the Black Blockers that are not police? You are doing something dirty to them. If the correspondence between police to Black Block is not 1 to 1, then you lose legitimacy.
I’ll let the cops play cop, thanks. Condemning people who sully the face of the movement is one thing. Ostracizing them from future events is one thing. Turning them over to the police is another. Let’s turn on and turn in the people who are killing brown babies with drone missiles.
Old hippie saying: “The guy who brings up dynamite is the FBI mole.”
There’s a reason the Occupiers are eschewing violence, as you well know: Besides its not being the right thing to do, it also breaks the Bigger Asshole Rule. But of course “black bloc” guys like you are either too stupid to care about that, or cop/FBI/conservative moles who are eager to throw dirt on OWS.
So which are you?
Yer trollin, and yer flagged forever. Now piss off, asshole.
I pray and hope that everyone at the protests nationwide remain safe and stay nonviolent even in the face of police brutality, demonization by the MSM, and the low down dirty tricks I know the rightwing is playing.
I just want to say that I am sick and tired of the audacity of these ‘rule of law’ mother7$ers who game the system, circumvent Democracy through bribery, avoid prosecution for fraud while seting up private prisons and paying judges to throw people in jail.
The corporate controlled MSM, the Rightwing, the ‘Business’ sector etc etc etc will attempt to disparage ANY threat to the status quo. Violence helps them do this, even if they are the perpetrators which I am satisfied is the case.
I wonder if the concern trolls and the ‘moderates’ appreciate the sheer irony of all of these pimps, con men, extortionist f@Ks who should be brought up on charges under RICO pointing their bloody fingers at peaceful protestors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvJEJmHNMXk&NR=1
“I actually believe these are mostly rats working for cops,but it doesn’t really matter.”
exactly my thinking.
Agree with you in full.
And right on Spocko, n thank you for all your work . . . . highly rcc’d diary. Always.
1) Last time I looked, FDL wasn’t your local Democratic Party apparatus.
2) Why not run against her yourself? C’mon, that’d be much more fun than haranguing people who for the most part don’t live and vote in your state.
SD, citizens arrest covers that if done properly.
Agreed in full.
LeSigh, late to the thread . . . and the nesteds, damn their eyes . . . lol
My reply in full was to Mr. Sperry who started this particular comment thread with his most excellent comment.
Seconded.
Sometimes, ya just gotta fight, especially if the enemy is in yer foxhole. I’m all for Occupy folks to go after ‘the black shirts’ and expose them for the rat fucks they are.
In the pursuit of these asshats, the gloves come off and you FIGHT, you fight. Otherwise, they win and you lose the whole thrust of Occupy.
Sometimes, civil non violent disobedience requires one to fight. End of story.
Agendas and leadership are down the line, now is the time for growing and building, and yes, FIGHTING the insurgency within seeking to usurp the cause as it is.
I have NO lack of faith this Occupy Movement is moving along just fine so far . . . . gotta account for how to deal with homeless, mentally ill, chronic ill and chronic criminals.
N now, gotta account for how to deal with insurgents within.
But so far, it’s fine, and the best thing we the people got going.
And when people lob fireworks at police, we still expect them to believe that they are ‘of the 99%’? Sorry. Wrong-o.
SD, yer Cat Sense Superpowers are indeed strong within you regrding Greenbell’s posit.
;-)
*MROWR*
Thirded.
Look at the energy burning through this thread…for what?
Vigilantism.
“Vandalism is neither peaceful nor just, just juvenile.”
Bullshit, this vandalism is adult and criminal. Where the HAYALL do you come up with this stuff, Mz. Manners?
“Then the movement needs a way to expose them and deal with them or they will destroy the movement. If your organizing principle is essentially anarchy don’t be surprised if anarchists show up.”
Heysoos effing dawg of christos WTF do you think this diary and comment thread is all about? Are ya DAFT or DEAF lad?
*kinmorans*
Hella great catch, I had not read that one, thanks Elli!
*waves*
To FDiva, how about ‘PIMP O’KEEFE’ . . . work for yas?
*G*
Bless yer comments in this thread and support for Spocko, too. Also, ya betcha . . . We Trudge On Together! Solidarity, Indeed.
Indeed.
Twain, it’s a cluster phuck . . . here’s their FB page, ya gotta click above on the “everyone” button to see everything.
http://www.facebook.com/OccupySacramento
Bless their hearts tho, they are as active as they can be considering the internal idiocy and lack of support, challenges all the other Occupies face such as homeless, mentally ill, new criminal releases and the funneling of all that INTO the CC Park to hamper and burden OccupySac.
There’s a LOT of dissension you might not see from folks with different POV’s within the group, that I’ve witnessed in the past few weeks as I monitored the FB page. Mary might have more to add to my gloomy feelings about it all.
donkeytale- it isn’t just a matter of the high ground of righteous purity, though I don’t particularly find anything wrong with that. It is a matter of the destructive aspects becoming what people associate with the occupy movement and the message and any potential impact being lost. The local small businesses won’t tolerate violence or property damage for much longer, and the public will be on their side. Then all the effots to date will have been wasted.
Why, spocko, I do believe you’ve struck a nerve. Look at all the people decrying your suggestion. Lots of folks here want to persuade people that unmasking the black bloc is snitching, fighting amongst ourselves and their various other forms of ridiculing the suggestion.
It’s also clear from previous situations, that these people are very likely to be police or people hired by the police. (The thugs in Tahrir Square to wit.) Personally, I’m suspicious about the lack of police presence at this march downtown. It’s more than a little odd that the Oakland Police went from overwhelming intimidating presence and numbers creating a riot the night they fractured Scott Olsen’s skull to absolutely no presence yesterday downtown where, oh surprise, the anarchists attacked. Then just as miraculously, they went from no presence at all to full riot gear again over the occupation of the empty building.
Reminds me a little of the virgin birth of our savior.
Thanks Spocko.
It would be good, imo, to see if any of the black bloc people can be matched with police, but it’s also possible they were all brought in en masse as a group from the bowels of our Wall Street handmaidens for hell.
Maybe the black masked folks could be disabled before they start anything. Spraying soap in their eyes? Or identifying them with dye?
Yeah DT, for what? It appears that the person expending the most energy here is you. I see you working very hard to keep this going.
As I predicted with my FAQ there will be people who will choose to see this as snitching and who really just want things to burn.I get that.
But the majority of people don’t. And if they have no mechanism for identifying and excluding them the extremes rule the day. We have all this great technology and we are always worried about how it will be used against us. This is a way to use by us, for us. Do we wait until the police use their gait sensing technology to track down the anarchists?
Or do we, as some suggest, use our numbers and our technology to make it clear that this kind of violence is not welcome?
Some people are angry and they want to smash stuff. But the smashing of stuff doesn’t satisfy more than a temporary itch and it gives authorities an excuse to move in with overwhelming force.
That’s an exceptional comment. Where is the +1 button?
+1
No thanks, I’m not in the habit of doing the police’s work for them.
Greenwarrior, that sounds like satire. OWS is not an organized movement, nobody has to ask for permission to join, and no protestor has authority to punish, harass, or *police* other protestors. Witch hunts are counter-productive, as per Donkeytale’s excellent comments.
I think the main thing is to make positive identifications of the violent black bloc provocateurs. The law can do whatever they like with them after that- assuming they aren’t the law themselves. That’s why they must be identified, if they are government or government sponsored agents or right wing plants, by identifying them publicly you substantially disable their ability to do further harm to the movement and at the same time discredit and embarrass our enemies and disincentivize further attempts to use provocateurs.
I’d sure as hell like to know the real names of the “black bloc” provocateurs who were seen in Toronto colluding with the police. Having that information would destroy the moral narrative the 1% want to sow regarding who the “good guys” and “bad guys” are in the public eye. That’s a powerful PR weapon- far more powerful than any brick or Molotov.
Fuck these clowns, they are far more dangerous to OWS than the uniformed cops are.
Only if he isn’t a cop you’re going to look like an idiot.
I guess people can flag me as a troll but I agree with donkeytale. Not everyone is going to engage civilly. Some people, when angered and frustrated are going to cause damage. It’s an inevitability when you start dealing with larger and larger groups.
Publicly outing and shaming enemies of the cause isn’t “snitching”. It’s common fucking sense.
Exactly. It’s the same as evicting open drug users. OWS still has a population to win over, they have a vested interest in projecting the proper image of who they are and what they are about. Vandals and thugs who are itching for some action can organize their own little riots.
I can see it both ways—if people are tearing shit up, publicly outing them and distancing the movement from them is..like Kurt says..common f’ing sense.
But spending too much time worrying about the inevitable infiltrators, and spending lots and lots of energy trying to prove to the world that they’re not Occupy, really does carry a danger that I think donkeytale is trying to convey–keeping one’s eye on the purpose of the demonstrations, the banks, rather than the act of demonstrating itself, is really going to be crucial.
You can’t ignore the misbehavior, and it’s a good thing people have time to analyze video and do detective work, that’s a great way people who can’t be out there, can contribute.
But overemphasis on the physical conflicts going on really does pose a danger to the overall conversation, imo. Of course mainstream rags and channels are keeping their eyes on the negative because it sells. But spending too much time reacting to them derails the whole point—the point being that *we the people* make the conversation, steer the conversation. Too much focus on the protests themselves, and the conversation stays about the protests and the protestors. Which keeps Occupy in a fundamentally defensive position, where it doesn’t need to be.
That is just what the naysayers and critics want.
And I personally don’t wanna give it to them, all that much.
Huge +1 for the last two paragraphs. Well said.
Actually, by letting the black blockers take down the Occupy movement with the violence smear, you would be doing the police’s work for them.
Actually, unmasking agents provocateur helps the movement — when the “violent and lawless protesters” line was trotted out in DC, what killed it dead was when the American Spectator’s Patrick Howley was caught pretending to be a protester: http://my.firedoglake.com/cgrapski/2011/10/09/american-standard-editor-admits-to-being-agent-provacateur-at-d-c-museum/
Actually, OWS has, by the consent of its members, organized security patrols as a response to things like the NYPD’s trying to disrupt them by sending homeless alcoholic persons their way with a “take it to Zuccotti” message. They are open and friendly, but they’re not pushovers.
Yes, that was a great bit of work.
Fourthed.
I’m disheartened by the strong authoritarian streak running through spocko’s suggestions and all those that concur, seemingly without much critical reflection. No offense meant.
The first step is to settle emotions and begin thinking critically and asking questions about motives; spocko’s, “the vandals,” the movement, the cops, and our own. spocko doesn’t really build a logical case for outing people. He just makes a claim, “time to identify occupy vandals” because, the media won’t? The reason “WE” must do it is why exactly? spocko never tells us why he’d, “like to know who specifically caused them [the vandalism] and what their motivations are.” Again, why?
Personally, I think wanting to learn about “their” motivations is a critical endeavor. But then, spocko seems to start with too many assumptions about who “they” and “we” are.
But again, spocko provides us with absolutely no argument for taking this action other than the quote from Charles Grapski’s broken logic, that because Wall Street “circles the wagons” for their own “that explains why we have to identify these people and turn them over to the authorities because that is precisely what WS doesn’t do.” Huh?
There does seem to be an unwritten assumption in this piece, and many discussions like it; that without a positive mainstream (corporate) media narrative the movement is doomed. That’s another discussion but it seems to undergird many of the assumptions here about what makes a movement successful.
I assume spocko’s call to action is well meaning, as are probably most of the commenters who concur. But without, at a minimum, having a clear sense of why these actions should be taken in the first place, I’d think anyone’s limited time and energies would be better spent directed at the real criminals (including our corporate media), who actually commit real acts of violence against humanity on a daily basis throughout our communities at home and abroad.
Faced with a broad and potentially revolutionary coalition, any governments’first move will be to try to split it. Making concessions to placate the moderates while selectively criminalizing the radicals – this is the art of governance 101.
The police force, as an institution, is first and foremost a tool of the ruling class. I’d be very wary of placing any limited movement resources (including all those who agree with its general aims however loosely defined) at the disposal of the very ruling class the movement is challenging.
Respectfully,
Towner
spocko,
I hope this thread keeps going because we have the potential to learn from it.
The authorities don’t need an excuse to move in with overwhelming force. The state holds an absolute monopoly on violence and has demonstrated that it will use its power whenever it so chooses. If the ptb believe they need an “excuse” for PR purposes and don’t have one, well, they’ll just make one up. Recognizing this fact does not necessarily lead one to condone vandalism done by fringe groups.
While “the smashing of stuff” may only be a temporary release of pent up anger and frustration for some, for others is may be a considered revolutionary act, like the Tea Party committed by the Boston Sons of Liberty as donkeytale pointed out above.
To be clearer, I’m not suggesting you nor anyone else here embrace those tactics. What I am suggesting is a less reactionary stance with a deeper and more nuanced understanding and appreciation for the ways social justice movements have historically succeeded in advancing democracy and social and economic gains for oppressed populations.
I can tell you unequivocally that I don’t aspire to live in a future society in which citizens clamor for the use of even more surveillance technology to be used against each other. We’re already living in an increasingly Foucaldian panopticon imposed by corporations and the state! If anything, those OWS encampments are explicitly rejecting the surveillance state, the very neoliberal logic that privatizes public human spaces (and relations) for profit and control.
I prefer your suggestion to “use our numbers and our technology to make it clear that this kind of violence is not welcome.” Though I wouldn’t call it violence. Yes, outreach, communication. Not surveillance and intimidation. OWS is already reaching out to a number of various groups, institutions and coalitions. Hell, some are even reaching out to libertarians and tea party folks! Why not have dialogue with the anarchists too? If that’s who they even are. Ultimately however, I think this focus is a distraction from the bigger picture.
We definitely need to police ourselves and identify, publicize, and prosecute vandals, goons, an provocateurs. These thugs do not represent our movement and need to be fully exposed for who they are, as would any common criminal.
Spocko is correct.
If the black bloc people genuinely cared about what they were doing, they’d adopt their own name and procedures rather than gangle along behind. If they cared about the identity of the Occupy Movement, they wouldn’t dishonor its basic tenets by indiscriminate violence. Their actions de-legitimize Occupy but it doesn’t matter to them.
The black bloc people are cowards. Else they’d not hide themselves inside another’s movement. And they’d not hide within costumes, thus opening up Occupy to agents provocateur.
They are not with the Occupy. Occupiers must make that clear.
The Black Bloc considers OWS their movement and are pissed that it has been co-opted by “a bunch of whinny status quo go no where baby boomers”.
I know a few and that is what they cant seem to shut up about. On and on about how the “organized government people want to continue a new flavor of the same go nowhere failed society”. They intend Anarchy as the model not Socialism.
Please do not shoot the messenger (me).
Better to be *perceived* as an idiot than get had by PTB, I say. The point is (1) get the behavior to stop; and (2) get actionable evidence to prevent the behavior in the future.
I was going to let this post go without adding my 2 cents. I can’t.
I have marched with many Black Bloc youngbloods in the last 10 years. I’m not one, I’m their parents and grandparents age. I marched next to them to keep an eye on things. Also, to put myself between them and the police.
I like the Black Bloc. They showed up to protest our Racist and Illegal wars when the other young adults were playing video games. When holier-than-thou old people criticized their desire to dress as an identifiable group, to move as a unit.
In all those years I witnessed no violence. There was a flag burning as the cops became increasingly violent, just before Obama’s election.
It was a flag I’d ordered from our representative’s office and had flown over the Capital to “Honor Our Constitution”. [ It's a bullshit program the government offers to make us citizens feel included,or something]
It really pisses the cops off to see a flag burn. Makes them want to smash heads.
Really pisses off the old people who’ve become comfortable in their conformity.
Individuals who enjoy random acts of true thuggery are thugs.
Don’t lump all the Black Bloc in with them. That’s called discrimination.
All the posts herein which insidiously suggest that those who perpetrate vandalistic acts in the midst of an OWS march or confrontation are ‘part of the movement’ are completely wrong and merely wish to subvert it, no matter how they clothe their arguments.
The basis for OWS is general consensus, and it has been the general consensus of the group in all of its manifestations to be nonviolent in every aspect, even to the point of being arrested. The General Assemblies aren’t just a pretty face, they are the democratic lifeblood of the movement. Anyone going off on their own tangent really does have to be disowned, just as Occupations have been weeding out those among the homeless that don’t want to form a caucus within the group at large and abide by the group decisions.
There is strength in leaderlessness precisely because the general consensus is the rule of law for the entire body. So, let consensus be reached on the wearing of masks as it has been on the use of any form of violence, and these folks who are determined to do otherwise can be listed as provocateurs whether or not they belong to the police or any other body. Provocateurs are what they are because they will weaken the movement as a whole.
I don’t care if they call themselves something fancy like anarchists and wear fancy black outfits. They do not belong and no dialogue is possible.
I said in the past when the question came up on what made the ’60s movement fail that it was the Weather Underground. Those lovers of blowing up things became permanent symbols of the dissent of those days.
Violence masquerading as revolutionary fervor is something the PTB will just love. These macho dopes have the potential to do the same thing as the Weathermen did and they need to be surrounded and eliminated whenever they show signs of going against the general will. Don’t forget, there have been kids in these camps. They need a safe environment, as safe as camp society can make it.
This is not informing or squealing; this is ejecting those who do not belong.
openhope, your statement “it really pisses the cops off to see a flag burn. Makes them want to smash heads” appears to me totally at odds with what the OWS movement represents. This movement really means it when it announces ‘we are the 99%. ‘ These young people are not about pissing off the cops and making them want to smash heads. And I don’t think they are about burning an American flag either. I think they desperately want to see that flag flying proudly in support of justice and the American way, a very different way from the way the PTB want to see it flying. They want to be proud of their country again, in cooperation with all its citizens, not in antagonism towards this or that group. Their success comes when the cops relax their antagonistic stance, as some have done, and recognize that they have the same American values as the protesters.
This is why there is not a Boston Tea Party destructive element to the movement. It seeks to bring the conversation back into the public realm, instead of where it resides now in the halls of big corporations. It seeks true Americanism, a re-establishment of democratic principles. It is doing this in a new way, epitomizing the best characteristics of democracy, not its degeneration.
This is not to cast aspersions on the effects of flagburning demonstrations in the past. But this, in the age of internet connectivity is a different movement for a different time.
Once again, juliana, a well-reasoned comment that says it all.
Er, that’s juliania. :-)
I didn’t say that clearly, I apologize.
The only act of “violence” I ever witnessed by the Black Bloc was the legal burning of a flag. In a trash can. It wasn’t at OWS.
It was during a 5,000 people march against Stop Loss and the wars.
I completely agree. The self-righteous authoritarianism of so many people here makes me sick. Wanting to blame the utter failure of legal protest over the past decades on those who commit property damage, which is not violence, is a pathetic ploy, and I will never cooperate with homeland securtity tactics by conservatives who themselves want to occupy the movement by slandering and having arrested anyone who isn’t willing to go home and accept failure without recourse.
Thanks for that; I agree, people bringing up these ultra-conservative prejudices to smear the black bloc are really sickening. Smashing windows is not violence; what the police do is violence, and I would never turn over genuine anarchists to the police.
Well said.
:)
Glad I snuck back for a peek (thanks to Spocko’s link) You can drop my “i” any time you wanna, realitychecker.
Just heard David Brookes pontificate:
“If you don’t have the structure of leadership, you’re in a very fragile situation.”
:)
(And thanks openhope for your civilized response to my diatribe.) We are really going places this time round – gonna take patience, won’t happen on our timetable, just keep on keeping on…
I suppose that you know what a ‘block’ is. I feel uncomfortable with any general assembly making decisions without consulting with the masses. At best any of the general assemblies may collectively make decisions on their specific actions, but they cannot claim to make decisions for the entire 99% without at least trying to communicate with us as a whole. The beta ‘spoke’ program is not even fully developed at this point. The people within the OWS mechanism are acting as if since they are at the protests that they get to call all the shots. This makes many people uncomfortable.
OWS needs to take a step back and look at this from the point of view of those not within the mechanism. I am not making excuses for the behavior of the black bloc, I disagree with their tactics. But many of them feel betrayed at this point. More importantly I think that this may be a good heads up to make the effort to listen to more voices and not to be forced into making decisions too soon on issues that affect every citizen. First solidarity at the same time promote communication, only after that can we start making decisions on what direction we ALL want to go.
I have WAY too much respect for you and your insighful mind to tolerate such errors on my own part. ;-)
Spocko, I agree wholeheartedly. Anyone who can identify the vandals should do. And we should circulate photos of the acts of vandalism and urge people to look at them and get involved. The Occupy movement is very open, but that doesn’t mean we can’t insist upon some standards of behavoir, such as nonviolence.