This is the testimony of Mayor Jerry Sanders, which I am copying over from a document I created in Word.

Please forgive errors in transcription and typing .

Walker: pleasant weekend I hope. Any matters for the court?

Boutrous: two discovery issues. 1. Massachusetts amicus? 2. Unseal Ron Prentice’s brief? He is the principal named in about 2,000 pages of documents we have received. He disclaims connections to other non-ProtectMarriage.com groups, but these documents say otherwise.

Walker: WRT Judge Spero’s discovery order, Massachusetts people are the Wirthlins, and a Jane Doe. Document 474. Is this what you’re speaking of?

Boutrous: Yes

Walker: I am ready to rule on the first part of your motion. Have you filed a reply to 474?

Boutrous: Yes, we filed our answer this morning

W: Well then I will read it and answer. Mr Cooper, have you something to say about opening up Mr Prentice’s testimony?

Cooper: Hope to, just got it. Will do so promptly.

Walker: What is promptly?

Cooper: Tomorrow

Walker: Next witness?

Dennis Herrera, City Attorney of the City and County of SF

Walker: I read a depo by one of your deputies. You really need to take time to counsel your deputies on the proper way to objections.

Herrera: Yes, your honor, I will do so.

Mayor Jerry Sanders of San Diego takes the stand, is sworn in.

Herrera: You are the mayor, a GOP, and have been for four years?

Sanders: Yes to all

Herrera: Previous public service?

Sanders: Yes, police academy in 8/73, became a patrol officer, prmoted to agent in 1978 and SGT in 1979, where I supervised officers. LT in 1981, SWAT commander and director of the police academy. Promoted to capt, policed 160,000 people, the commander in 1990. Chief of Police in 1993 and retired in 1999.

Herrera: Between police and Mayor?

Sanders: Headed SD United Way. Then asked to reconstitute the Red Cross Board of SD at the requent of the American Red Cross

H: Are you gay?

S: No

H: Married

S: Yes

H: Children?

S: Yes, two daughters. Jamie is straight, Lisa is a lesbian.

H: relationship with Lisa?

S: Very close, we were inseperable on weekends, and I had joint custody before she went to college.

H: How did she tell you she was a lesbian?

S: She called from college to see if we’d be home that’s weekend and she wanted to come home and tell us something. So she came home and told us she was a lesbian. I told her we loved her and would be there to support her in any way she could.

H: Were you upset?

S: No, I was very concerned, though because I saw what happened to people who came out. My experience on the police force made me realize that gays and lesbians had a very tough time. I had an officer who told me he was gay, and he had a very difficult time. I also saw violence against members of the gay community just because people were gay. I heard the slurs, saw the violence firsthand.

H: When you first ran for mayor, whast was your position on marriage equality?

S: I supported civil unions.

H: Why?

S: When I ran, SD was in real trouble. Federal investigations, grand juries. Also, I was a GOP and thought civil unions were a fair alternative.

H: Did there come a time when your views changed?

S: Yes, the city council wanted to direct the city attorney to join SF in the marriage cases. I had to decide whether to veto it.

H: Did you make a public announcement?

S: Yes.

Herrera: Your honor at this time Iwould like to play the videotape of the announcement byMayor Sanders about his decision to sign the resolution by the city council.

(plays video)

Herrera: Tell us about that, please

Sanders: I came very close to showing my prejudices and acting on them.

Herrera: Did Lisa talk you into signing the resolution?

Sanders: No quite the contrary. Lisa felt that my position on civil unions was the best, since I had run on it. I struggled with this; why would I say that anyone’s marriage was less than mine. I invited several people in the gay andlesbian community over to my home the night before. I was trying to listen and was shocked by the depth of feeling and hurt. Our neighbors, two men, said, We are a family with children just like your family. WE have children just like other families, just like your family. I could see the harm a veto would do.

Herrera: Were you threatened?

Sanders; No, and this was not about politics. I saw how close I had come to closing the door on something that would have hurt people I cared about a great deal.

Herrera: And why do you think this is good for government?

Sanders: Went back to police department – we wanted to police people like they wanted to be policed. We went to every community and told them we would work with them, racial minorities and gay/lesbian. SD is very different from Sf:: We had violence against g*L community; that was not good for the entire city.

Herrera: What about hate crimes?

Sanders: Hate crimes were frequently part of the violence because a person was not LIKE someone else. But people feel empowered to commit hate crimes if they see their government discriminate against certain people.

H: Were there hate crimes?

S: Yes, we worked very hard, started a hate crimes unit, but there were crimes after the PRIDE celebration. People were beaten, people were killed.

H: That happened when you were mayor?

S: Yes

H: When you began public service, did you have typical attitudes? What changed?

S: Seeing the discrimination against the SGT who came out, andleft the force. It was not easy for G&L to come out. We knew they were, but they stayed in the closet. My chief of staff came to me, when I became Chief of Police, and she said I’m a lesbian but I won’t come out, it will be a disctraction and hurt you as Chief.

H: People thought you were so emotional because you thought you had been prejudiced. Were you?

S: I had gone through lots of diversity training, and thought I was open minded. I had not understood the issue clearly enough, I had discriminated against my own daughter.

H: Is Lisa in a relationship now?

S: Yes, with Megan.

H: Describe your relationship with Megan

S; She’s like a third daughter, been an excellent partner for my daughter, she is a wonderful.

H: Did they become DPs?

S: Yes, in 7/2009

H: Do they celebrate that?

S: No she got it and texted me a couple days later, and I said What’s a DP?

H: Ceremony? Congratulations? Celebration?

S: NO

H: Do you think it’s like a marriage?

S; No, she should have the same right as a heterosexual couple in a marriage?

H: did they get married

S: Yes, 2009 in Vermont

H: By a JP?

S: Yes, it made me feel bad that they had to go across the country to get married.

H: Yes many people did.

H: Has the marriage between Meganand Lisa harmed YOUR marriage?

S: no, it has strengthened our marriage, we see them as an example

H: Did you see Prop 8 ads?

S: Yes, it hurt me

H: Do they want children?

S: I don’t know, but I’d certainly like to be a grandfather.

Herrera: No more questions your honor

Walker: Very well. Mr Raum?

Raum: Good morning, Mayor Sanders. I am Brian Raum.

S: Good morning

R: In the police dept, the relationship with the g&l community improved over time?

S: yes, it has

R: Police department has worked to ensure its employees communicate dignity and respect to the G&L community?

S: All communities

R: Are there G&L politicians in SD?

S: Yes
R: (mumbles about G&L politicians on the City Council and State Senators)

S: Yes, these identify as G&L

R: Is the city council responsive to the G&L communituy?

S: I would say each councilmember makes decisions about whats’s important

R: Exhibit. Turn to page 38 please. (reads testimony)

S: yes I did say that

R: DA of SD is a lesbian?

S: Yes

R: Also, members of the state assembly are G&L?

S: Yes

R: Would you agree that G&L activists have gotten things accomplished?

S: Welll, I only know about one issue, gay marriage, which was lost.

R: (reads Sanders depo about effectiveness)

S: yes I said that

R: Asks about general effectiveness, health and human services

S: Yes, on some issues

R: (reads depo about organizations he’s been involved with, have they been supportive of G&L community) Did you say that?

S: yes I did

R: United Way, you led it, it donated money to G&L community

S: Yes, it provided health andhuman services to all communities

R: You supported NO ON 8, right. You went to rallies, you were allied with the movement to defeat prop 8.

S: Yes (to all)

R: During your campign for Mayor, you appeared at the SD G&L Pride parade?

S: Yes

R: Approx ten times?

S: Yes

S: you participated in two debates at the G&L Community center?

R: you appointed openly gays to office, including the fire chief/

S: yes

R: unanimously approved by city council?

S: Yes

R: Did youduring your time as mayor attempt to address the needs of the G&L community?

S: In all communities. I worked with every single community about their needs

R: You were willing to address the needs of the community while mayor

S: Individuals brought me issues, and I attempted to work with everyone

R: (reads from depo): Were you an ally of the G&L community? Did you consider their needs?

S: Yes I said that

R: You had G&L friends?

S: I did

R: In 2003, you found out about Lisa’s being alesbian. Were you disappointed?

S: No, I was upset only about how tough I knew it was to be in a relationship as G&L, and to be out .

R: Youwere comfortable and your primary concern was that she was happy?

S: yes

R: At that time you supported civil unions?

S: Yes

R: Did you think that was hostile to G&L community?

S: No

R: Did you think your position communicated hatrd?

S: I did not believe I did, but I now know it was grounded in prejudeice.

R: You believed civil unions was a moral perspective and reasonable?

S: Yes, but grounded in prejudice.

R: You do believe people who oppose marriage for G&L are motivated by animus or hatred or ignorance?

S: I believe it’s grounded in prejudice.

R: That means treating a class of people differently, right?

R: Do you believe people voted for Prop 8 because they thought civil unions were a reasonable alternative?

R: (depo, page 68, line 4) Do you think it’s possible that someone could vote for Prop 8 because it’s a fair and reasonablte alternative? You answered yes. You said you participated in NO on 8 so that it would be defeated. Did you encounter people who thought civil unions were reasonable?

S: Yes, and they weren’t hatred, but it was rooted in prejudice.

R: You didn’t hold that view in 2005

S: No I didn’t.

R: And your electoral base thought civil unions were reasonable?

S: They don’t have to have animus and hatred, but it’s still rooted in prejudice.

R: (exhibit): written by Blankenhorn. You were asked questions about it at depo, yes.

S: Not sure I’ve read it all. But I was asked questions.

R: (reads) This article was about children being raised by the man and woman whose union brought them into the world.

S: Yes, but many children aren’t raised that way, by one parent or another, foster or adoptive. Presumes best case scenario, but that doesn’t exist.

R: Do you disagree?

S: As a cop for many years, I saw lots of abuse in marital relationships, kid hurt.

R; So you disagree with Mr Blankenhorn?

S: I disagree with that statement of his, yes.

R: Would you agree thast some voted for Prop 8 to preserve the definition of traditional marriage?

S: Yes, but that would be rooted in prejudice.

R: And some voted because marriage is procreative?

S: Some people may have done

R: Votes were rooted in good faith beliefs?

S: good faith belief doesn’t mean that people aren’t motivated by prejudice

R; but when you believed it did you think you were prejudiced?

S: No I did not.

R: You;ve run for mayor twice

S Yes

R; You participated in the NO ON 8 campaign?

S:Not in a big way, I went to rallies and fundraisers (two, maybe)

R: Call attention to SFChron article about lesbian wedding for first grade children at City Hall. Did you read this?

S: Briefly. I think the wedding was of a teacher, and her class, and she was married to her partner by the mayor.

R: Did this event hurt the No on 8 campaign?

S: I think the way it was portrayed, yes.

R: Now, about hate crimes, you think theys should be given additional punishment?

S: No, I didn’t say that earlier

R: Sorry

S: Isupport hate crimes legislation.

R: And you oppose violence against individuals because of their race, sexual orientation and religion. We want to show a video from ProtectMarriage.com, and we want his opinion.

Walker: Has he seen it?

R: Yes

S; I’m not sure of that your honor

R: Says so in his depo

Walker: Appears to have been played, you may proceed.

(video from Frank Schubert, ProtectMarriage.com)

(lots of talk about vilification, abuse, thousands of signs stolen and destroyed, property destroyed, supporters beaten and hospitalized. Prop 8 is either leading or gaining momentum. No on 8 is becoming shrill! Get mad, but don’t lash out.)

OBJECTION: relevance
Walker: Overruled

R: Mayor, you would agree it would be wrong for people to suffer violence for their political views?

S: Yes

R: Violence is not an effective political strategy?

S: No it is not.

R: You would advise people not to steal, intimidate, or commit violence?

S: I would so advise both sides

R: Not my question

S: Well, I would advise both sides that, they are not effective strategies, but I’m not a political scientist, you might consider me a politician, I consider myself a cop.

R: In 2008 you ran as GOP, advocated against Prop 8

S: Yes

R: During reelection campaign you made specific efforts to reach out to G&L

S: Reached out to all

R: Specifically, G&L?

S: Yes

R: Spoke at Log Cabin Republicans?

S: Yes

R: They are a grassroots national G&L organization?

S: Yes

R: You had the approval and endorsement of this group?

S: Not sure when I got endorsement in relation to the primary.

R: In primary, you got 54% of the vote?
S: Yes

R: Your support on SSMarriage didn’t cause you to lose the election, did they?

S: Didn’t make it easy

R: Your views on SSMarriage have evolved,yes?

S: Yes they have

R: At one time, you believed marriage shouldn’t be part of the state, that it should just be held in churches?

S: I was prejudiced in that time. I now believe the government should treat everyone’s relationship the same

R: What if government got out of the marriage business?

S: I don’t think that’s gonna happen

R: Thank you

Walker: Very well, redirect

Herrera: What other parades besides G&L Pride parade?

Sanders: (Lists a bunch of parades)

Herrera: What about debates? Only at G&L Center?

Sanders: No, there were about 70 debates that year?

Herrera: Have you ever made a decision based on fear of political repercussions from the G&L community? Have you seen others make such decisions/

Sanders” No

Herrera How did the party treat you?

Sanders: They considered withdrawing their endorsement. I had to go to lots of meetings, my kickoff was sparsely attended the day after my press conference you saw on the tape.

Herrera: How many Log Cabins are there in SD?

Sanders: I went to a meeting with four

Herrera: Do they have aninfluence on the GOP party in SD?

Sanders: No

Herrera: What about thast campaign video?

Sanders: Well, I never saw it before. I never saw any TV campaign ads, we don’t watch tv. I have no way of knowing if any of that is true.

Herrera: what about No on 8?

Sanders: In my own neighborhood, we had chalk written on our street when we had a No On 8 sign, GODS LAW, lots of other houses on our street had the same.

Herrera: Do you think there’s less discrimination?

Sanders: well, I think people think it’s okay to judge G&L relationships, I think people make decisions from prejudice, I believe what’s being said is that “you folks” don’t have the same type of relationship or love each other as heterosexuals do.

Herrera: Thank you no further Qs

Next witness, M.V. Lee Badgett.

Boies! Good morning, we have some binders for you and the court. First, background: where employed

(Gonna do this as Q & A since initials are the same, B)

A: UMass Amherst since 1997 and the Williams Institute UCLA.

Q: Schooling?

A Bachelors, Masters, PhD

Q: Your honor, we have given DIs all our exhibits

DI: Lots of these we don’t have.

TAKING BREAK NOW, GOING ON TO LIVEBLOG NUMBER 23 AT SEMINAL