Methodology Austrian economists reject empirical, statistical methods and artificially constructed experiments as tools applicable to economics, saying that while it is appropriate in the natural sciences where factors can be isolated in laboratory conditions, the actions of human beings are too complex for this treatment. Instead one should isolate the logical processes of human action. Von Mises called this discipline “praxeology” – a term he adapted from Alfred Espinas (but which had been in use by others).[30] The Austrian praxeological method is based on the heavy use of logical deduction from what they assert to be self-evident axioms or undeniable facts about human existence. The primary axiom from which Austrian economists deduce further certain conclusions is the action axiom which holds that humans take conscious action toward chosen goals.[31]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School
My bold Statistical methods and experiments can’t work on humans? If this is so then every social science is invalid.
Instead one should isolate the logical processes of human action?
Yes Humans are always logical especially in a Crisis every Stock Market Crash is a testament to how logical people are in a Crisis./s
Not taking the illogical reactions of people into account when you know Man is illogical is nuts.
The Austrian praxeological method is based on the heavy use of logical deduction from what they assert to be self-evident axioms or undeniable facts about human existence.
Its funny how even with the best Philosophers logic often gets bent, self evident tends to conform to the bias of the person making the observation.
Especially when Stats and Experiments do not confirm, never mind real world experience. The Paulites view on healthcare is Free Markets rule! Healthcare is a great example of where this thinking is wrong.
We got decades worth of Real World experience of America’s Free Market Private Insurance vs France, Japan, Germany the Nordic countries etc who have National Healthcare.
In the Real World not the self-evident logical axioms of Austrian Economics decades of higher costs, shorter life spans and higher infant mortality rates confirm that Free Markets deliver worse healthcare at higher costs.
Now before the GOP and the Tea Baggers gets all racist and complain about America’s racial diversity bringing down our healthcare numbers compared to Europe and Japan lets remember Asians and Hispanics live longer than Whites.
"In the United States, Hispanics, despite their socio-economic hurdles, on average live longer than blacks by seven years, and whites by five years, says Dr. David Hayes-Bautista, a professor of medicine at UCLA.
“There’s something about being Latino that is good for their health,” Hayes-Bautista told HispanicBusiness.com, adding wryly: “Just think if we had access to health care."
href="http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/editors_picks/2009/7/7/the_hispanic_paradox_us_hispanics_live.htm">http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/editors_picks/2009/7/7/the_hispanic_paradox_us_hispanics_live.htm
My Bold the Paulites who hate immigration should consider what the average American life span and infant mortality rate would be without us.
They should REALLY reconsider their position on healthcare. The healthcare debate would look way worse compared to other countries without us.
When ever a science won’t confirm its truth with Stats and Experiments it becomes a Religion based on Faith.
When a religion ignores or rewrites historical truth it stops being a Religion and becomes Orwell.:)
It should be noted that Hispanics a mix of White, Indian and African American in some mix of one,two or all three are the most racially diverse group. We have very low health insurance rates but given our lifespan racial diversity has obvious benefits:)
Inductive reasoning, also known as induction or inductive logic, is a type of reasoning that involves moving from a set of specific facts to a general conclusion.[1] It can also be seen as a form of theory-building, in which specific facts are used to create a theory that explains relationships between the facts and allows prediction of future knowledge. The premises of an inductive logical argument indicate some degree of support (inductive probability) for the conclusion but do not entail it; i.e. they do not ensure its truth. Induction is used to ascribe properties or relations to types based on an observation instance (i.e., on a number of observations or experiences); or to formulate laws based on limited observations of recurring phenomenal patterns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning
Logicaly anything I say might be considered true if it happens at least once in front of witnesses until then its just a theory however just because you form a theory with deductive logic it DOES NOT MEAN you don’t test the theory if you can
It does not mean that if in the Real World actual events disprove your ideas you still get to claim your right.
This would be the time to admit your wrong and figure out why. Then make some excuses, but first admit you were wrong academic discourse goes nowhere if nobody admits they are wrong.



36 Comments

This is a little misleading. What has happened in psychology has been a recognition that experimentation only gets you so far. It is difficult to isolate everything for a lab experiment and even if you manage to do it, you don’t find that kind of isolation in the real world so it can be difficult to translate from experiment to what it means in practice. It is as bad to rely solely on experimentation of certain types as it is to rely completely on logical argument or faith.
The application of logic in addition to experiment would also have greatly helped the financial gurus. They had all their models set up based on past data. The housing market had never fallen all across the nation at once, so their models assumed that they would not. Scientifically collected data without real world logical interpretation is not only useless but dangerous. OTOH, those of us who were looking at it from our logical experience could see that the combination of how humans behave with how the incentives were being manipulated would make for a disaster.
You see the same things when you read Nate Silver. He is a genius at statistics. He can tell you which polls are more likely accurate and what they say in that regard. But he is often off when it comes to interpreting the polls in light of human motivations and societal ramifications. He is more comfortable with numbers than with humans who, we know, do not always act in ways that seem logical from the outside but often can be figured out if you understand human behavior at a deeper level.
People do take conscious action toward chosen goals. If you are looking at scientifically collected data, you are best served to keep that in mind when trying to interpret what that data means in a human context. When it comes to immigration, it may seem illogical to you that racists don’t take into account that hispanics actually increase our average life span. But if you assume they have some logic in their thinking even if it isn’t the same as yours, you could figure out that they probably would actually see that argument as a reason to deny immigrants health care. The underlying fear of our lovely American anti-immigrationists is that immigrants take pieces of a limited amount of pie that would otherwise go to them, jobs, education expenses, resources, political power, etc. Why would you want them to live longer to use up “your” resources? OTOH, if you point out that if immigrants go to emergency rooms and can’t be turned away, it costs us more not to have preventive care. Furthermore, if they have insurance, that emergency room will be paid for by that insurance, not by the taxpayers, so it will actually lower the amount of “your” resources eaten up by “others” and if they pay for that insurance themselves, it ensures that it is their resources and not yours that are on the line if they get ill while here whether or not you want to deport them after you find them. Argue with me one way, but with a Beck fan another and you’ll get better results from both of us.
It always pays to assume that others work from some internal logic because if you can figure it out, you can tailor your arguments and use of statistical data to be persuasive in light of how they already think. If you just throw data at them without context or assume they have no logic, they will interpret it how they wish and you will be much less likely to persuade them to see anything the way you want them to see it.
Like I have said on ecconomists.
If any of them were worth there salt we would have no problems here or world wide.
The economists have led us to believe they can tell us what we must do to prosper and have great economies before and after the Great Depression, and before and after this Great recession.
All their therories have dumped on us, yet they still push their therories.
Ron Paul sounds reasonable but hasn’t the slightest idea on what really would work or be best for the Country. If He listens to any economist He should be removed from office and dismissed in every way.
You have to listen to economists, you just shouldn’t take everything they say as proven truth. Even the economists don’t agree. The frustrating thing about the current mess is that two big schools of economic thought already got to try their hand at it when something very similar happened not even a hundred years ago. Some policies made things worse and proved those economic models wrong while operating under the assumptions of the other school’s models worked well. You don’t have to have faith. You don’t want to ignore economists. You need to follow the economists who have proven they understand these crises and know how to get us out of it because they did it before.
Experiments have their limits but should not be dismissed out of hand like the Austrian School economists do. Ignoring Real World Experience though that I have a problem with.
To assume that the impossible will never happen is a Black Swan mistake hopefully Philosophy, Economics etc start to ask What If. Certainly many Fields of Study in Academia have made similar mistakes.
My Bold all the Sciences need to connect more with the Human and the Real World.
I like to listen to the ones in good times who told me bad news. I like to listen to the ones who have a track record of being right.
However only Guys like Steve Forbes, Ben Stein, Kudlow and Kramer get on tv because they pump up stocks with happy news Economists need to police their profession more and weed out the Morons.
No thats the intellectual argument in researching on Google the hispanic lifespan number I found a surprising amount of ignorance the Tea Baggers seem to think they are genetically superior and that healthcare dollars would be used to help us more.
I just wanted to bust their chops and point make them realize that if Healthcare had passed with Harry Truman then chances are there would have been enough white males ( McCain’s strongest Demographic ) to have elected him President.
Since Illegal Immigrants last I heard won’t be getting healthcare from the latest bill supporting healthcare would help the racists keep up their numbers.
I like to twist people’s arguments :)
Ron Paul has written books on Austrian School Economics. Personally I like Keynes he and FDR got America out of the Great Depression I say use what we know works.
Just what assumptions were and are still guiding the banks, and the White House’s economic models? That is something they should post on the Net and let us take apart and improve.
ThingsComeUndone, The Wikipedia passage you cited (smooth) has a “31″ near it, which — if you scroll down the page to the references — shows the passage is from a book.
You can read the whole book for free here:
http://mises.org/pdf/esam.pdf
If you search for phrases in the passage you quoted, you won’t find them there.
I searched for “reject empirical” and “should isolate” and found neither.
You based your whole blog post on fraudulent data.
Consider yourself proud.
Are there no other Austrian economic books, papers, sources the Wiki information could be established from?
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:MV9m9grGVO0J:citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.24.4436%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf+Austrian+economists+reject+empirical,+statistical+methods+and+artificially+constructed+experiments+as+tools+applicable+to+economics,&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgbXYZ5sI7c0KsmJYEX_L85Crq5kC0Df2HLD1gee1gn3ataBV463aFBvWXFfom3StFRtQspHDi_6N6AmCjrDCL6-kFVS79JsMF2dfDFi4RLklMehLSNYX909nyLoR0W_Uvxktx3&sig=AHIEtbRJROGmb2cX77RV79hx1PRj6CsCPQ
The first bold I did was from
a pdf I am having some trouble copying it however to be fair its titled Frederic Bastiat was Basiiat an Austriain economist?
http://www.fact-index.com/a/au/austrian_school.html
My second bold from the Wiki comes from Von Mises
http://www.fact-index.com/l/lu/ludwig_von_mises.html
Who is seen as a leader of Austrian Economics.
My first quote from the wiki
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8251032/The-Concise-Guide-to-Economics
Seems to support this
Your best argument is if Frederic Bastiat is not an Austrian economist however the Ludwin Von Mises Institute a founder of Austrain economics has all of his works.
http://mises.org/literature.aspx?action=author&Id=123
Check and Mate:) Nice try Seriously not too many people question Wiki but instead of trying not to find a source next time try to find the source.
Your a B.A like me right nobody above us should have gotten caught like that still very good try scholar.
Do you want to dispute the authenticity and judgment of the Ludwin Von Mises Institute?
Chicago School economics, from what I understand. Greenspan admitted he was wrong, but apparently he forgot to stop by and beat that message into the guys currently hanging out at the WH and the Fed.
Hey MooseofReason you never did address the obvious conclusion about race in my post , Hispanics don’t have access to healthcare only when we are so sick the emergency room takes us?
So by encouraging immigration don’t we lower healthcare costs? After all even without Healthcare we do live and breed more than you.
We need Ron or Dennis to get the CBO to do a study don’t you think?
Its often in the questions your opponent does not ask you find weakness:)
I don’t subscribe to race arguments I think beans and rice as opposed to processed food explains it. However if you would argue otherwise?
Agreed PaulaT agreed:)
One day I will write a book about Sun Tzu and Bush this quote of mine should make the letter jacket:)
If anything we should encourage more racial interbreeding to lower healthcare costs:)
So then Ron Paul is wrong to stop immigration.
God knows how much it would lower healthcare costs if every American White and Black’s next generation of kids was mixed with us or Asians. We need a CBO report on this subject:)
Come on tea baggers lets hear the racism :)
I’m pretty sure that top down criminal leadership (Bush as an example) can make any school of economic thought look bad.
Mainstream economists seem to get so caught up in thier mathematical models and spread sheets that they lose touch with reality.
I like the “whatever works” school of economics. Pretty much FDR New Deal style economics. And on healthcare, “what works” seems to be the Canadian single payer system.
This whole thread boils down to two issues with the behaviour of the rich and powerful;
1. Their hard-nosed greed and indifference to the plight of the rest of us.
2. Their tactic of setting us at odds with eachother in order to distract us from #1.
So if we ask if possibly their unbridled greed might be the cause of our discomfort, they point at the people who don’t look like us, (poor brown people) and say it’s all their fault.
So far, that has worked remarkibly well for the rich and powerful, because science can’t accurately measure the effect of their greed, or of our racism on the economy.
With all of your empirical evidence I would expect that you are able to identify which particular segments of the health care and insurance industries have been subject to free markets in the last few decades. I don’t actually know of any that have not been subject to crushing regulation, government sanctioned monopoly, and the inflationary forces of hundreds of billions of dollars of federal and state money. Actually, I do know of one very minor exception, and it is the only area of health care where costs are declining and quality is rising.
Now if only Obama had some Keynesians working for him. If only Congress got taught Keynes in their Elite Private Schools it seems the rich are the first to be indoctrinated with their own propaganda.
Great job seeing themes you are right all this is a smokescreen the Rich feel discomfort or guilt about being rich as people suffer so they need a scapegoat to hate.
Brown People fit the bill plus they can sell their brown hate to poor whites and divide the country while bankers keep getting their bonuses.
Spill and are those costs comparable to National Healthcare with drug prices as low as Canada and Mexico pay?
I’m guessing your talking about the V.A,, Medicare or the American Indian Healthcare system Sarah Palin put her kid on.
Crushing Government regulation? Are you saying America regulates our Private Insurance system more than France does its National Healthcare system if so please supply some evidence. The French after all invented the word bureaucrat or government of desks.
Also their system covers everyone cheaper per person than our system does plus they live longer than we do not to mention the French smoke and drink like we do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureaucrat
In fact if it comes down to Bush or Herbet Hoover level of free markets history shows the result is disaster.
Regulated markets like the Sun King had can be good if the merit not connections determines who has a civil service job.
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/3244
Actually a monopoly would lower price as all competition was eliminated and or increase profit a better word to describe the insurance companies is Confusopoly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dilbert_Future
My bold Inflationary forces of hundreds of billions of Federal and State money?
No cash even if it comes from the government is not inflationary long term. Yes a rise in demand causes prices to rise short term but if its at all humanly possible more demand means more cash and that means more people wanting to get paid try and meet that demand which should result in a lower price.
However the Confusopoly as mentioned above a cabal of industry who control all our healthcare won’t let that happen.
Also economics of scale means that you making one car yourself costs more than Ford making 1 car along with a million others. Healthcare costs should go down with economics of scale.
Yes, I’d certainly like to see the President bring economists such as James Galbraith onboard.
Your comment “the rich are the first to be indoctrinated with their own propaganda” reminds me of a few of my boomer generation in-laws who did go to private school.
Say “WPA” and the instant knee-jerk response from them is the word “Boondoggle”. And you can’t really take a discussion beyond the word “Boondoggle” with them because there’s nothing behind it.
It’s as if a portion of thier brain is being blocked by a great big “WPA = Boondoggle” billboard.
Interesting how does an education system teach a learned response and then close the mind to further questions on the subject?
Bush was famous for not asking questions.
Our Elite Class is in decay they are teaching their kids to believe the lies they try and sell us.
Sure believing lies does help sell them however there is a difference between running a Con and being Conned.
Once you believe your own lies your getting Conned.
Our Elite Class used to have two faces the Public one where they lie to us and the Private one where they admitted they were wrong but they just said their crazy stuff to make money.
The Banking Crisis was caused by funny Math Models the Banks use to predict the economic future.
These models are programed with Elite Class delusions. I wonder how a Keynes model would work?
James Galbraith recently published a piece on the academic side of this dysfunction.
“Who are these economists anyway?”
http://www.nea.org/assets/docs/HE/TA09EconomistGalbraith.pdf
Relevent quote from the article:
Well it’s not as if it hasn’t been tried. FDR’s New Deal take on Keynes certainly worked in the USA before the monetarists got thier hands on it the early 1970′s and started ripping it apart.
And just look at what the monetarists are now doing… firing teachers, running 4 day school weeks etc… Why? because they say we “can’t aford it”. And some people actually believe that crap. It’s an insanity.
What would Keynes say:
“there is work to do; there are men to do it. Why not bring them together?”
My point was that you were taking a sentence or two and drawing inane conclusions about them, in an attempt to discredit an economic theory.
The very theory, I should point out, that led Austrian economists to warn about the housing bubble, back in 2003:
http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=450
The one Ben Bernanke, former Federal Reserve Governor and the current Chairman, did not see as an issue. The one Paul Krugman said we needed, in order to get out of the slump left behind when the dot-com boom went bust. If you look back at what Krugman was writing, he recommended that Greenspan slash interest rates further.
If you have free time, you should check out this video by Thomas Woods:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XbG6aIUlog
He goes through predictions made by keynesian economists and compares them to results.
You may want to check this out regarding Mises. You may want to reevaluate your post.
http://www.coordinationproblem.org/2010/03/too-good-for-the-comments-ebeling-on-mises-the-applied-economist.html