You have to hand it to Digby. Of all the so-called progressive political pundits attempting to dissuade critical thinkers on the Left from saying something positive about Ron Paul’s positions on war and civil liberties, and from pointing out that on these issues, he’s (arguably) more “progressive” than President Obama, Digby presents (“Making the Choice,” 1/5/12) the most elegantly constructed case. It beats the shopworn strategy employed by Kevin Drum of attaching the “crazy” label to one’s political opponents, and the tired attempt of Joe Conason to resurrect the specter of Ralph Nader in 2000 for one more go round.
Digby doesn’t insult our intelligence like Gary Weiss, who seems to think we’ve never heard of Ayn Rand and are ignorant of libertarian ideology. We know what it is; we get it. Paul’s world view is shaped by the notion that individuals should always and everywhere be allowed to act in their self-interest (unless it’s a woman seeking an abortion) and that collective provision of any good by the federal government is inimical to individual liberty. We understand that if the libertarian vision was implemented in its purest form, it would result in a social Darwinist nightmare.
Digby frames our electoral dilemma as a choice between “get[ting] on with our impending dystopian nightmare so that we can rebuild from the rubble” or choosing the lesser of two evils (presumably, the Democrats). To help us in our decision-making, she offers a list of articles on a variety of issues describing the consequences we may expect if the Republicans win the presidency. Then she brings in a true heavy-weight with bona fide Leftist credentials, Noam Chomsky, to advise us that there is a “narrow difference” between Democrats and Republicans, that “over time, the differences show up in benefits, working conditions, wages the things that really matter to people” (emphasis in original), and that “you’re doing something good if you choose the lesser of two evils.”
Finally, Digby acknowledges the limitations of our political system, tells us she’d change it if she had a magic wand, and concludes “it’s the founders’ world and we just live in it.”
I’ve always admired Digby’s work and generally agree with most of what she has to say. So to see her, despite the excitement of all the protests and uprisings of the past year, and most especially the emergence of the Occupy movement, remain trapped in a defeatist mindset limited mostly to electoral politics as a vehicle for social change, is truly depressing.
I couldn’t even bring myself to read the articles she linked. One was entitled The End of the EPA As We Know It. Surely Digby is aware that on Labor Day week-end, the Obama administration asked the EPA to withdraw a plan that would reduce air pollution and potentially prevent 2,200 heart attacks and 23,000 asthma attacks annually in order to “reduce regulatory burdens for businesses in a time of economic uncertainty.” Joe Romm, of the Center for American Progress described the action on Democracy Now as “worse than what George Bush wanted to do.”
One could make an ahistorical argument that an EPA, however limited, is better than no EPA. But for how many years should we accept that death by a thousand cuts is the lesser of two evils? When do we start thinking outside the box of regulatory agencies for achieving our political and social goals?
The most dramatic environmental victory of the year in this country has to be the delay of the Keystone XL pipeline, intended to bring tar sands oil from Canada for refining in the United States, routed through the Ogallala aquifer and other fragile ecosystems. The reprieve was brought about not through government regulation, but through direct action and lobbying organized by diverse groups of citizens including environmentalists, Nebraska conservatives, farmers, ranchers, and even a few Tea Partiers. The pipeline may yet still be built; there is intense pressure by the oil industry to do so. But for now it has been stopped, and there is time for debate and to organize further resistance.
Another article Digby links to warns that Obamacare “is toast.” Again, I ask, really?? The health care bill that denied Physicians for a National Health Program and other single payer advocates a say and was written largely by the health care industry? The one that health insurance insider-turned-whistleblower Wendell Potter said had many provisions the industry liked, and was therefore unlikely to be repealed (despite Republican posturing)? It’s true that the legislation has some good provisions, such as disallowing exclusions for pre-existing conditions. But over the long haul it’s a bad bill, forcing us to buy a corporate product with no cap on how much we may be charged for premiums in an industry where costs are rising faster than the rate of inflation.
Yet another of Digby’s linked articles warned that if Republicans win, financial regulation would revert to the bad old pre-Obama days. Are you kidding me? Financial regulation from the guy whose largest donor in the last election cycle was Goldman Sachs? Whose 2012 campaign had by October 2011 already received more Wall Street donations than all GOP candidates combined? I refer readers to the master, Matt Tiabbi, on matters of financial regulation and the Obama administration.
Digby leaves us with the question of what’s important to us. In these times I feel we need to do triage. At this point, for me, three (interlocking) issues loom large: War, civil liberties, and corporate power. As we all know by now, on New Year’s Eve, President Obama signed both legislation imposing sanctions on Iran, making it difficult for most countries to buy Iranian oil, and the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA). Iran responded to the sanctions by threatening to close the Strait of Hormuz. The US and Israel, in turn, further escalated tensions by announcing joint military exercises to be conducted in Israel. It’s hard to believe that the actions and rhetoric of Israel and the US are not intended to provoke a response from Iran that they can use to justify war.
This is just the latest in the Obama administration’s lengthy resumé of military adventurism, which includes, but is certainly not limited to, drone attacks in Pakistan, continued conflict in Afghanistan, and the illegal bombing of Libya. At what point does morality compel citizens to say, “Enough is enough: The killing must stop”?
I’m currently reading the autobiography of S. Brian Wilson, the Vietnam War veteran and peace activist who was intentionally run over by a US Navy munitions train in 1987 while engaged in an act of civil disobedience against Reagan’s war on the Sandinistas in Nicaragua. Wilson, trained as a lawyer, felt compelled to engage in civil disobedience by the Nuremberg obligation of citizens to uphold international law even if their governments do not. I ask Digby, and all others who insist that we have to work within the two-party system, and that the Democrats are the lesser of two evils, at what point do Americans have an obligation to act on the Nuremberg principles?
The enactment of the latest NDAA codifies and expands the assault on our civil liberties begun with the passage of the Patriot Act following the 9/11 attacks. It allows for the indefinite detention, without charge or trial, of American citizens suspected of supporting terrorism or “associated” forces. In a statement responding to the legislation, the ACLU declared that “President Obama will go down in history as the president who enshrined indefinite detention without trial in US law.” Constitutional lawyer Jonathan Turley observed that, “For civil libertarians, the NDAA is our Mayan moment: 2012 is when the nation embraced authoritarian powers with little more than a pause between rounds of drinks.”
The chilling effect of the NDAA on political protest and direct action remains to be seen. But the implications are profound and already some in the Occupy movement feel targeted. Matt Tiabbi also has speculated that it wouldn’t be much of stretch under the new legislation for authorities to identify Tea Partiers or OWSers as “terrorists.” He notes:
The definitions, then, are, for the authorities, conveniently fungible. They may use indefinite detention against anyone who “substantially supports” terror against the United States, and it looks an awful lot like they have leeway in defining not only what constitutes “substantial” and “support,” but even what “terror” is.
If our ability to mobilize direct action without fear of being named an enemy of the state is compromised by the NDAA, how much harder will it be able to agitate for the policies that are important to progressives? How dangerous will it become to protest war? To demand economic justice and to oppose corporate power? These are not idle questions. Our greatest gains in social, economic, and political rights have come not through the ballot box but as a result of direct action that, in turn, forced legislation.
It is for these reasons that, if Ron Paul is still in the race in April, I will vote for him in the primary. I have never voted for a Republican in my life. But these are extraordinary times and I can think of no better political exercise in this election cycle than a series of debates between Ron Paul and Barack Obama. Can you imagine President Obama being forced by Ron Paul to defend his imperial wars and expansion and codification of the Bush-era assault on civil liberties? Or Ron Paul forced by Barack Obama to defend his position on the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Social Security, Medicare, and other social programs? It could be truly enlightening and educational and potentially inspire more engagement and activism by citizens grown weary of usual pablum.
Of course, it is highly unlikely that Ron Paul will be the Republican nominee. If his own competitors are unable to defeat him, the oligarchy will surely take him out. So it’s hard for me to understand why so many commentators get their panties in a wad when people speak approvingly of Ron Paul’s stance on war and civil liberties. (And yes, I understand he takes these positions for different reasons than do progressives.) Unless, as Glenn Greenwald and Matt Stoller suggest, it’s because their own guy, Barack Obama, is indefensible on these issues.
The Occupy movement changed the national conversation on austerity, budget cutting, and economic inequality. As long as we have Ron Paul in the race, there’s a chance he can do the same on the topics of war and civil liberties.
Related articles:
An Open Letter to President Obama about “Shared Sacrifice”



74 Comments

Nice diary. Did you see what I have up at The Dissenter? It is rather lengthy but I thought it was important to look at how progressives scorn people like Greenwald who try to challenge the confines of US elections.
The “lesser of two evils” is becoming extinct as Democrats morph into conservatives. Liberals are so frightened of anything “Republican” that they’ve morphed into Republicans. It’s like a political Stockholm Syndrome, like when Patty Hearst joined her kidnappers and became one of them!
Thanks. Long before progressives get single payer they will be rotting in concentration camps. Before you can even advocate for a progressive agenda you have to have stuff like free speech and habeas corpus.
Yes, Yes, Yes. I get somewhat depressed when I hear progressives get so exorcised about not showing up for Obama because of just what a game-ending defeat it would entail for the movement. The Democrats are over, our only hope will come from outside the system. Occupy is a start. Clearly, Digby and others who recoil from the thought of progressives going off the reservation just don’t get it yet. Maybe they will when the government steps up their beat down of dissent in the coming year. Let us occupy aggressively the two political conventions this year and expose the farce that our democracy has become.
I think it’s amusing that so many people are calling his stance on civil liberties good.
Echidne sums it up pretty well on her January 2nd post on lesser evilism and a whole bunch of males telling women that they should (and this is Ron Paul’s wording) have to quit their jobs to avoid sexual harrassment or give up their reproductive rights.
http://echidneofthesnakes.blogspot.com/2012_01_01_archive.html
It’s ridiculous to tell half the population they should have to suck it up, particularly when you haven’t ACTUALLY critically thought out the complete consequences to Paul’s policies.
Thanks, Kevin, for your comments and directing me to your blog. We’re really on the same page, aren’t we? I like your expanded discussion of the issues and comprehensive summary of anti-progressive policies and actions of the Obama administration. Also, “political bigotry” to describe the attitude of liberals toward third party contenders is a keeper!
BTW, saw you on Democracy Now a couple of weeks ago talking about the Bradley Manning hearing. Good job! If you’re ever back in Madison, feel free to look us up.
Katherine
I’m wondering if “leftie” blogs are paid by Robert Wolf http://www.ubs.com/global/en/investment-bank/meet-our-management/robert-wolf.html (or someone) to be Obots.
I hope to god Ron Paul stays in the race as long as he can. Anything to increase the chances the MSM will discuss the positions he has that any progressive should want discussed.
If by some weird miracle he were to get the Repub nomination, it would be fantastic to see Obama forced to defend his record on droning, due process, covert war, two-tiered justice system, corporate welfare, and drug policy in a debate with RP.
My fondest wish is that a true progressive candidate catches enough fire to get into the national debate, but until then, Paul is the only national candidate shining the spotlight on issues the Dems tossed into the trashcan.
Many of Paul’s positions are anathema to me and I neither support him nor endorse him. But practically all of Obama’s positions are anathema to me and if you backed me into a corner and forced me to choose between Obama and Paul, I’d go with Paul.
If there ever was a time for lefties of all stripes to shit-can lesser-evilism and work together on building a more than token third-party challenge to the duopoly, it is now.
Thank you for saying what has to be said. Hopefully we’ll see more like this.
Recommended
Ron Paul is evil. Therefore, he is unacceptable as president. Barack Obama is evil. Therefore, he is unacceptable as president. Every Republican is evil. Therefore, they are all unacceptable for president.
So put on your thinking caps.
“Progressives” who support Ron Paul are, by definition, NOT “Progressives”. If anyone would like to argue, I invite you to link to any statement, any shred of evidence that Paul has now or has ever supported a progressive tax structure.
Calling me names isn’t a legitimate argument. Telling me that Obama is evil isn’t a legitimate argument, (I’m aware of his failings), and telling me that the system is broken, (I’m aware of that also), isn’t making a legitimate case for any Ron Paul supporter. Regurgitating the false dichotomy that I must vote for either a Republican or a Democrat isn’t even true, much less a legitimate argument. If you wish to support Paul, that is your absolute right. Arbitrarily redefining words to support your claims or to make you feel better about yourself is not.
EXACTLY my sentiment. Thanks for your reply.
Katherine
“The reason Ron Paul causes hysterics is he pits interest group against interest group, morality vs. morality. He’s a different kind of lesser evil. If Afghans got to vote in the US election, who would they vote for? How important is Habeas Corpus to you really? What about pot legalization? Etc… Ron Paul is awful on some issues, and very good on others. Are abortion rights more important than dead Afghans and Pakistanis at weddings? (I don’t claim they are, or aren’t, I simply note Paul forces you to make that choice.)”
“And that’s why many progressives are attacking any other progressive who says anything good about Paul, because Paul threatens to split the left, and because Paul makes progressives decide what they value most.”
http://www.ianwelsh.net/ron-paul-hysteria/#comments
U.S. gets to ‘vote’ (i.e. determine outcome) in Afghan elections. Turnabout is fair play.
An important Post. Recommended.
“Before you can even advocate for a progressive agenda you have to have stuff like free speech and habeas corpus.”
Exactly.
Excellent insight – thank-you for posting.
Katherine
You advocate voting for a candidate whom you say yourself cannot win the nomination. I will dip into my reserve of simple common sense to further develop that algorithm and state that were Paul to be nominated he is not electable.
“Our greatest gains in social, economic, and political rights have come not through the ballot box but as a result of direct action that, in turn, forced legislation.”
While I concur with the statement as an accurate desciption of the past, it is no longer possible to “force” legislation. Our democracy is dead.
2000 eloquent words +/- followed by a thoughtful thread of comments.
To what end?
Interminable discussion about irrelevant minutia.
Getting Obama to discuss progressivism will lead to change?
Your thoughts and energies would be better spent organizing and participating in direct action, a true revolution will be needed now to manifest change.
Anything less is fools bane.
“Paul makes progressives decide what they value most.”
Paul is a Doctor not a Lawyer. So he can ignore 150 years of case law and simply read the Constitution in it’s original form. For Paul federalism is still the law of the land. I think this bothers liberals as much as Paul’s social conservatism. It undoes the Civil War in their view. And without a monolithic federal government there would be 50 sets of rules and some States would almost certainly decide not to enact a liberal agenda.
I’m a Nader voter but I see Paul as any port in a storm. Our Bill Of Rights is gone and we are living in a Police State. I think a lot of progressives who won’t even support Paul in the primary just don’t know what time it is.
Ron Paul’s chances of winning the nomination are close to zero. So come the general election I will be supporting some unloved leftie as usual. But the better Paul does in the coming months the more his anti imperialist message will take root.
“Progressives” who support Ron Paul are, by definition, NOT “Progressives”.
Margaret, I don’t think it’s that simple. IMHO, some of these progressives/liberals may view Paul as means to an end. In that manner I can respect that. Certainly Paul has his baggage, many of which he can’t put into law because congress makes the law.
The elephants in the room are the economy, wars, and wall street owned politicians.
IMHO again, Paul will be mixed on the economy. His ideas on the fed I can support. His unregulated capitalism views sucks.
On the wars, I think his positions are right on!
On Wall Street influence, I’m guessing good but I don’t know for sure. The only reason why I’m guessing good here is most of the mainstream rethug pundits hate him and a few would take bo instead.
With that said I aint voting for him. I’m voting my principles. I’m voting for Green, Jill Stein.
x2
By your logic, then, “Progressives” who support Barack Obama are, by definition, NOT “Progressives”. If you agree with that, then I can at least consider you to be intellectually honest and consistent in your thought process.
““Progressives” who support Ron Paul are, by definition, NOT “Progressives”.|
Uh, sorry Margaret, even if that were true, which it is not, it would not be true by definition.
“Arbitrarily redefining words to support your claims or to make you feel better about yourself is not [your absolute right].”
Uh, sorry Margaret, not only is this false–you actually do have an absolute right to make up definitions since it presents no clear and present danger and hence is protected under the 1st amendment–it also contradicts the first thing, since YOU are redefining words.
Do your have any idea how absurd your “arguments” are? You screamed racist for a month and totally discredited yourself while degrading the level of discourse a dozen notches. Should we do a count of the word “racist” in your posts? And now you are just serving up pure contradition. Quit while your ahead. And stop pretending you aren’t an Obama supporter. The most you can mention is “his failings”? Lol. How stupid do you think the average person reading these blogs is? Care to elaborate on “his failings”? I’d love to see that. Won’t happen will it. Because you can’t. And we both know why that is don’t we? Lol.
You’ve totally discredited yourself. You used to be piss people off. Now you just make them laugh.
CORRUPTION IS THE CORE PROBLEM.
RON PAUL IS 100% NOT CORRUPT.
OBAMA IS 100% CORRUPT.
“Anything less is fools bane.”
How true it is….what is it that folks are not seeing I just don’t know….there is no democracy in America,the congress just gave the Prez authority to detain Americans indefinitely folks.
We don’t even have a credible way to audit our votes…..in a democracy you would have that ability.
“Paul has now or has ever supported a progressive tax structure.”
Progressive tax as opposed to Flat Tax or Fair Tax, or whatever? Isn’t that kinda like asking a vegetarian whether he supports beef or pork?
Given that Ron Paul is opposed to any form of income tax you’re asking a moot question carefully phrased to push Liberal hot buttons.
They are not seeing it, and the extent to which they are not seeing it is really frightening to me. The apathy and/or resignation toward what looks like a terrible situation leaves me flabbergasted. I don’t know what to say to people. I mean people I meet in my everyday life. They just do not seem to care. They’ve disconnected. “Oh politics…it’s always full of shit.”
I don’t know how to address that. I can get with the people who believe like I do and that feels good for a while. But as to the rest, the apathy–the apathy—it’s as if people really don’t believe they can actually affect things for the better so they give up before they start.
I just don’t know anymore.
Chris Hedges mentioned that the lefty Noam Chomsky is hated by the liberal class because he exposes their hypocrisy. The same can be said of libertarian Ron Paul on select issues – foreign policy, civil liberties and drug war. He holds a mirror and what liberals see in it are pretty. This is not to completely equate Chomsky with Ron Paul.It is a sad state of our pseudo-democracy when all we have left is an otherwise libertarian extremist making good arguments for radical change in direction on the above policies. The Democratic party is becoming a zombie. I don’t know how log the “lesser evilism” is going to cut.
“I’m a Nader voter but I see Paul as any port in a storm. Our Bill Of Rights is gone and we are living in a Police State. I think a lot of progressives who won’t even support Paul in the primary just don’t know what time it is.”
That’s exactly where I am at this point. It’s later than we think. Why not vote for Paul in the primaries, so the wars and all the issues surrounding them will be brought to the forefront? Let’s let the anti-imperialist issue “take root,” as you wrote. It’s the only ammunition we have at this point.
She does have a point.
Progressives who make these points are willfully ignorant of the totality of what Paul has to say. There are a few instances where he shares our views, albeit for the wrong reasons.
I’d rather him win the GOP nomination than the other nut jobs, but he and Obama are cut from the same cloth, in the end.
By my moral compass, anyone who profits in stock ownership in mining companies that murder and repress their employees is corrupt.
Ron Paul increased his wealth from $3,930,000 in 2008 to $5,064,000 in 2009 – over a million dollars richer. Yep, Ron Paul made over a million bucks in the Wall Street Casino at a time when millions of Americans were losing their jobs and homes. Ron Paul is no different from any other greedy millionaire Wall Street shyster that we have “representing” us in Congress.
Mr. Paul, a millionaire five times over, has several million of his assets invested in numerous mining corporations including three of the worst mining corporations in the world: One of them is Anglogold Ashanti Ltd in which Paul has invested $250,001 to $500,000. According to Forbes, AngloGold Ashanti was accused in 2007 in Colombia for “murders of trade union and community leaders who opposed the company’s activities in the region”. Paul is invested other other mining companies with reputations just as tawdry.
Ron Paul is a hypocrite. He votes against trade agreements and rails against the War on Drugs, but he personally profits from both.
Still I too am glad that he is in the race (not because I would ever vote for him) because of what he claims is his stance on war and trade agreements at least keeps some semblance of a national dialogue going on these important topics.
I am voting for Jill Stein for President, and the only way she will not win is if the majority of us don’t vote for her.
Ron Paul “opposes” war–just not war on people who work in mines. How is that not sheer hypocrisy?
The same argument could be said about Greens.
This really isn’t about Paul, this is really about the fact that the label “progressive” means nothing, and there are a lot of self described “progressives” who are not.
It’s an identity crisis on the left. For example, many on the “left” hate Greens more than they hate Paul, though they are even closer in values & spirit. Now how does that work?
Yep.
But all “progressives” want to talk about is a Republican. How screwed up is this?
What’s wrong with using Ron Paul on the issues that work for us? I wouldn’t vote for him but that doesn’t mean I don’t welcome the fact that he actually gets an alternative foreign policy argument into the MSM — something establishment Democrats wouldn’t dare to do.
Democrats have become expedient cowards. They’re hangers on at the imperial court.
Yes, excellent point about free speech and habeas corpus. I 100% agree.
Rocky Anderson, former mayor of Salt Lake City, recently announced his candidacy for president on the Justice Party ticket. He is liberal, articulate, smart, and experienced. Can he get through the fog? Are any of the above bloggers willing to support him? Do you even know he has announced his candidacy? Is there any way we can support a true progressive candidate like Rocky? Democracy Now! had him on about a month ago.
“The Ron Paul Enigma” is not that complicated. An arch-conservative who uses populist talk to get elected. The extent of Ron Paul’s usefulness of bringing up issues in a debate that might not have been discussed is no more useful than what Dennis Kucinich did in the Democrat primaries in years past. The American public gets duped by the same b.s every selection cycle. Progressives who think Paul is their savior are no better than Obamabots. Professional grifters are all the same.
I’ve been watching Rocky Anderson, and I like what I see. Do you know more?
I see this:
https://www.voterocky.org/home
I agree with you on the voting Green thing.
However, I do have one observation about something you’ve said here:
It concerns me that somebody might say that they are against something, and then vote in line with their personal interests (like Obama did in the telecom immunity deal), but as long as they keep voting for the things I favor, I don’t really care what their personal interests are. My concern is when the rich people in congress vote in-line with their personal interests (which means the interests of the 1%). That is the real problem.
And I agree that it would be great to have people running our government whose personal interests match our own, rather than the 1%. That is something we should work toward.
But, from the “hypocrite” accusation one would almost think that you’d favor Paul voting for the War on Drugs, if he personally profits from it (that way he wouldn’t be a “hypocrite” right?).
It sort of reminds me of people who seem to think that Warren Buffet should be singled out because he thinks the wealthy should have higher tax rates. People ask: “Why doesn’t he give up his money then?” as though it is OK for people like the Koch brothers to keep their money, but Buffet should be singled out because he is a “hypocrite.”
In an ideal world, we’d have no billionaires, and nobody would profit from the War on Drugs.
But since we do have billionaires, and we do have people who profit from the War on Drugs: I wish all billionaires were “hypocrites” like Buffet. And I wish every body who profited from the War on Drugs voted against it.
Yeah, but how do Paul’s positions make him more electable?
It seems to me that he says what he says despite how unpopular with the repukes it is, not because of it.
I don’t agree with a number of Paul’s views, but if you want to see somebody who says whatever it takes to get elected, just goggle the names “Romney” and “Obama.”
And the main problem that Kucinich had was that he was not able to get enough support to force people to take him seriously. I wish he had been able to force to debate toward the Left.
And, while they all may be professional grifters, I tend to favor those grifters who vote against the Patriot Act, over the ones who support it.
“Progressives” who support Ron Paul are, by definition, NOT “Progressives”.
Who died and appointed you the gatekeeper of all that is and who is or isn’t “progressive”, Marge? Sure, Ron Paul sucks, he’s a LIEbertarian. Regardless, supporting someone can be a strategy against something you perceive as worse, and exposing them, even if it does not gel with your views. It’s called the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Look it up if you’re not too busy writing your progressive application check-sheet for the rest of us.
I see Ron Paul AS the lesser of two evils at this point. Some degree of support for civil liberties, some willingness to abide by the Constitution, and some opposition to foreign wars are better than none. On the other issues I care about–the environment, healthcare, Social Security, the economy, social welfare, even racial and gender equality, the choice between Ron Paul and Obama is at least arguably a wash.
Those who object to Paul basically argue that we must support Obama because he SAYS the right thing, even if he never does it. We must reject Paul because he SAYs the wrong things, even if what he wants to do is right. But, for me, politically speaking, facts count for more than beliefs. I wouldn’t care if Paul were a racist and a wingnut if that meant that, in the unlikely event that he were President, fewer people of color and fewer leftists ended up in concentration camps. I wouldn’t mind him being an idiot goldbug if banksters were not allowed to loot the country quite so freely.
But there is a stronger reason to support Paul: the Democratic establishment that has sold us out at every opportunity is counting on our not supporting him or anyone like him. I doubt that Paul will become President. But anything that can frighten the Democratic Party is a good thing at this point. Romney is not frightening. He is the status quo. He is, in effect, Obama–and vice versa. Somewhat the same can be said of Gingrich and Santorum, for that matter. Sameness and bipartisan corruption are the magic that has put us in the state we are in. Ron Paul is not the same, whatever else he may be. Any significant support for Paul is a real threat to our 1%. Support from liberals and the left generally is a bigger threat still, because it says that we are willing to accept politically correct words over good deeds any more.
Think of Paul as Shock Doctrine that works for the rest of us.
Of course I agree with that and I was called “racist” and “PUMA” among other things for pointing out that Obama was no progressive in 2008. Most long time FDL persons will remember that.
Not at all. I’m just stating what most people agree a “Progressive” is. I’m not “pushing” anybody’s “hot buttons”, just stating a fact. I don’t see any difference between George W Bush trying to redefine CO2 and Paul supporters trying to make themselves more palatable, (and therefore more credulous), to people on a Progressive website.
“The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend” is a fallacy. Ask The Soviet Union how their treaty with Hitler worked out. Look, if you want to support a bigoted asshole, I continue to assert that is obviously your right but don;t piss down my back and tell me it’s rain ing. So afar all I’ve gotten from the Pual supporters are personal attacks and scorn but still not one shred of evidence that there is anything remotely “Progressive” about Ron Paul. Maybe this Venn Diagram based on Ron Paul’s stated positions will help.
Ron Paul is not corrupt? Are you going to support that with facts and documentation or are you just going to go with the authority of the caps lock?
All of you Paul supporters seem to think that if elected, Ron Paul will accomplish what YOU want, while Congress will muzzle him and keep him from enacting policy which even you agree is insane. Where is the evidence of that? There is no evidence. You have no fact on your side. You’re metaphorically arguing for a flat Earth. Period.
A valid point and one that I would absolutely share….if I was a single issue voter. But a vote AGAINST Paul doesn’t mean a vote FOR Obama/Romney or other mainstream party candidates.
I’ve never so much as suggested that Ron Paul be silenced. I have also stated over and over that I will never again vote for any of the Vichy Dems, including Obama. “Left” doesn’t mean “Democrat” because the Democratic Presidents haven’t represented anything “left” since the days of James Earl Carter.
Who cares who she does or does not support, eblair? Does everyone who viscerally opposes Ron Paul get slurred as an “Obama Supporter” by you? Does that not discredit you? It’s McCarthyite demagoguery for starters, you don’t even know what people support or don’t support, only that they don’t follow your dicta in lockstep. They polled the people in Zuccotti Park. Turns out 39% of OWS were Obama Supporters, real ones, who declared that way in an actual poll, not slurred ones who were branded by an eblair who uses the term as a slur to condemn people in a little online inquisition.
I could tell what you were months ago in debates on entirely different subjects. Dogmatic to the core and allowing zero deviation from your dictata your polemic line. You are an authoritarian and a demagogue, and an inquisitor. You and nobody else deserves no voice at the table until you grow up.
Somebody should point out to him that we fought a civil war over states rights vs federal authority. The states rights group lost.
Digby has always been a scaredy cat that actually make things worse, however Ron Paul voting is wesser-ebil thinking too, since libertarianism is the root of all the betrayals Obama has made.
To to truly break out of wesser-ebil we have to vote for third party progressives like Rocky Anderson. It is no good to criticise demowimps like Digby if submit to wesser-ebil yourself.
If you read what I wrote, you’ll see that I make no such assumption. I start with the clear reality: Paul couldn’t be any worse than Obama, if we ignore the rhetoric and focus on facts. Sadly enough, there is not a whole lot left that Paul could do wrong, after one, twelve year-long, bankster- and neocon-dominated Bush/Cheyney/Obama administration.
I would support Paul as a candidate because he is different. We are, in essence, a one-party state at present. We don’t even have the luxury of punishing the party in power by voting for the opposition. For all practical purposes, Romney IS Obama, just as Obama turned out to be Bush. Gingrich, Santorum, what’s her name from Alaska, etc. would be just the same. Wall Street has hedged its bets throughly and bought mainstram politics completely.
So if Paul delivered on even one of his promises–ending the wars, for instance–we’d be vastly better off than we are. But if he didn’t, how much worse off COULD we be?
If you want to support a two-faced smooth talking lying neo-Fascist Toady of the Oligarchy, be my guest. I am not.
Also, I am not a Paul supporter. I support some things he has said and that is the point here, of this. My real hope with Paul is he gets more traction so it puts these issues of war, military, fed, and other things he is ringing true on out into the discussion so ‘Bammie can dream up some soothing bullshit for the suckers to consume. Each time, there’s less and less suckers so there may be hope for this country to wake up.
Just to be clear, as you seem to miss things, I am an “anti-Obama 2nd term” liberal progressive. If it means Paul wins, so be it, but he won’t so don’t get your panties twisted in a knot. Some other R assclown will be on the ballot, which, at this point, I will vote for to help accomplish my goal.
Enemy of my enemy is not a fallacy, BTW. It is a statement meant to explain a position one takes to those who might be confused by it, like you obviously still are.
Same argument can be said about Obama, too. He is awful.
I can’t speak for eblair but I suspect he put the NOT in the wrong place. Let’s see if this helps:
RON PAUL IS NOT 100% CORRUPT.
OBAMA IS 100% CORRUPT.
Reads better, but I do not think either is exactly a winner. Both suck, but Obama with a D after his name makes it that much worse. At least Paul has some positions that Obama, even with his “peace prize” (what a joke) will not/can not touch.
Although your assertions are true, I would point out that the continuum between what your stance and that of the opposite stance, has many nuances along the way.
Our democracy is dead. Yes.
But having Paul bring this up, with the intended purpose of only allowing these topics to be discussed, is understandable, to me. Of course nothing will change. But maybe a few people would wake the F up.
My left testicle is more progressive than O or Paul, put together. And I’m not even a progressive.
O will of course mouth off his talking points. And it won’t be a real debate of course. I know this. I’m not stupid (at least not as much as before, … I did vote for the bloody sellout after all).
But that’s not my purpose for having Paul bring this up. Maybe it will wake up a few more people. That’s it.
I agree only a true revolution will yield change. But in some revolutions, one form of tyranny is replaced by another (worse?, better?, only dawg knows).
As for me, I just want Paul out there talking about this stuff.
Mind you, I wasn’t born yesterday. There’s a good chance that when Paul gets the nomination, he will either a. tone done his rhetoric (if his masters command), or b. not talk about it all together (if his masters command). He’s a 1%er to the core. And he’s a sellout no doubt.
If he were to win prez, this country would take a giant step back, maybe a 100 years or more. And that would wake up a lot of people. Which is what I see.
Even he was the R nominee, I couldn’t vote for the useless corporatist. Same thing for O (and he should b running under the R banner).
Faustian deals are not the best way to achieve your goals. In the end you get burned.
Does this sound familiar? “You can’t prove a negative”
“He votes against trade agreements and rails against the War on Drugs, but he personally profits from both.”
Copied from the last time you said this:
“I’m still waiting to hear how voting against your own self interest makes you a bad guy. “
In fact, I’m waiting to hear your response to that on two different threads. Fortunately for the sake of my continued existence, I ain’t holding my breath.
Have you posted it a third time yet, Liz? I can go ask there, too, and you can ignore it there, too, and I can assume that you quite simply have no answer there, too.
http://my.firedoglake.com/jbade/2012/01/04/ron-paul-victorious-in-iowaleads-delegate-race/
The revolution has already started tamber,
If Paul could be elected he would bring it to critical mass even sooner. He can’t be, and I haven’t time to waste on unending discussions about stupid shit. Although I pause occasionally to remark upon and wonder over other’s willingness to do just such.
Regardless, 100K families per month are being foreclosed upon and thrown out of their homes…….more and more daily cannot properly care for their children. It won’t be long now. It is time. The greed of the 1% is as unending as the dithering of the clueless, and the still yet comfortable.
Good to hear your voice here though, still strong, still standing.
The problem is that there are no perfect candidates (outside of god-emperor warp9, of course). So voting for any other candidate is, to some extent, settling for a level of imperfection.
Obama/Romney is horrific, I disagree with him on almost everything.
Paul I disagree with on some things.
The Green Party is even closer to my ideal, but they are still not 100% perfect.
I am 100% perfect (by my own standards), so I suppose I could just write my own name in.
This week Digby quoted Chomsky on lesser evil voting. I think his opinion is interesting.
“To say it doesn’t make any difference is to show your contempt for the general population. A lot of this is correct. The two parties are effectively two factions of one party. The business party. But the factions are somewhat different. And as I mentioned, over time, the differences show up in benefits, working conditions, wages the things that really matter to people.
“If you’re in a swing state you have to ask, “is this difference enough for me to pick the lesser of two evils?” And there’s nothing wrong with picking the lesser of two evils. The cliche makes it sound like you’re doing something bad. But no, you’re doing something good if you’re picking the lesser of two evils.”
Of course, over time, sending the message to democrats that just being 1% different than the republicans is acceptable, will also have impacts that show up.
It means enabling more Obama-like dems in the future.
“If you’re in a swing state you have to ask, “is this difference enough for me to pick the lesser of two evils?” And there’s nothing wrong with picking the lesser of two evils. The cliche makes it sound like you’re doing something bad. But no, you’re doing something good if you’re picking the lesser of two evils.”
I find too many Obama policies/actions morally repugnant to vote for him as I did in 2008. I already struggle with feeling complicit in the thousands of innocents murdered as a direct result of his policies. I don’t buy the idea that you’re “doing something good if you’re picking the lesser of two evils.” I simply have no choice but to vote my conscience: evil is evil and I refuse to be a party to sending someone who is evil to be the most powerful person on the planet.
“what most people agree a “Progressive” is.”
Hmmm…. You’re either right or so close to it any differences are just semantic, but that’s not really my point. I (or Paul) am going off on a tangent, out of the box, maybe even into the Twilight Zone but wherever it is he’s leaving any kind of personal income tax behind, so…
What differences does it make that he hasn’t spoken in favor of something he wants to become obsolete? I think the real question is, is no income tax a progressive idea (in the ideologically sense)?
I don’t want to be argumentative (at least not tonight
and I’m asking seriously: is no income tax a progressive idea?
Yet you blindly believe you have a voice and choice in this selection process.
“What’s wrong with using Ron Paul on the issues that work for us?”
Nothing, and I hope that Paul’s presence does at least force those discussions, but sooner or later the talking will be done and you’ll have to pull a lever in a ballot box. That’s when you have to weigh “the issues that work for us” and decide who best represents them.
From where I sit, the only people who do so more than Paul are also even more of a longshot for actually being on the ballot (an unfortunate situation that could have been remedied with a good primary challenger).
“not one shred of evidence that there is anything remotely “Progressive” about Ron Paul”
First, the very diagram you link to shows the overlap on anti-NAFTA, anti-war, and anti-Patriot Act.
Second, how about these:
Repeal the mandate that all Americans must carry only government-approved health insurance or answer to the IRS.
Provide tax credits and deductions for all medical expenses.
Make all Americans eligible for Health Savings Accounts.
Stop increasing the debt ceiling.
Audit the Federal Reserve.
End the corporate stranglehold on the White House.
Offer tax credits to individuals and businesses for the use and production of natural gas vehicles.
Eliminate taxes on tips.
Stop taxing social security benefits.
Make tax credits available for the purchase and production of alternative fuel technologies.
I and others have repeatedly asked, “What is it you’re afraid he’ll do?”
The question is usually ignored but occasionally answered with some impractical fear-mongering.
Rocky Anderson:
First, he’s a Mormon which will set a lot of Liberals’ teeth on edge, if not rule him out completely.
Second, two terms as mayor, one failed Congressional run, and you want to send him to the White House?
exactly