I haven’t been blogging much of late, as I’m working on a few big investigative pieces. The first, due out later this week at Truthout, will take up the issue of the involuntary drugging of detainees, previously the subject of a big Washington Post exposé in April 2008. Another article, on the build-up to the torture and experimentation program inside the Department of Defense in 2001-2002 (co-written with Jason Leopold) also will be out soon. Meanwhile, the news scans by, and while I can count on Marcy, Spencer, Leopold, Jim White, Jeff Stein and others to catch and comment on the most egregious stories, others simply scroll onwards without comment.
One such story concerns an article by Walter Pincus in the Washington Post at the end of last month. Entitled "Guide tells how terrorism suspect became informant," Pincus related the tale of a pre-9/11 interrogation described in "a newly disclosed 2009 teaching guide for government interrogators by the director of national intelligence’s Intelligence Science Board [ISB]." The guide recounts, among other examples, the interrogation of Mohamed Rashed Daoud al-Owhali, a suspect in the 1998 bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Kenya that killed 218 people. Al-Owhali was later convicted for his part in the terrorist action, and sentenced to life without parole in May 2001.
The ISB study (PDF) was initially linked at Secrecy News, where Steven Aftergood calls the ISB "an official advisory group to the Director of National Intelligence." (A note at the Intelligence & Security Academy website describes the ISB as serving under the Director of Central Intelligence.) The purpose of the teaching study was to ostensibly examine "important recent examples of effective, non-coercive intelligence interviewing with high value detainees."
And non-coercive it certainly appears to be, as Pincus reports it. The FBI interrogator hands out butterscotch candy to suspects to build rapport. He shows a "’demonstrated appreciation’ for the Muslim beliefs of the suspect and the interpreter." He shares meals with Al-Owhali, and even when the interrogation falls into a "good cop, bad cop" pattern, the occurrence is supposedly unplanned. In the end, the hardened Al Qaeda terrorist gives in, telling his captors, "If you promise I’ll be tried in the United States, I’ll tell you everything. America is my enemy, not Kenya. I will tell you all about involvement with the bombings, bin Laden and al-Qaeda."
There are two things about the Pincus story that I thought important. For one thing, Pincus selectively chose the Al-Owhali case and ignored the other major "teaching" example, which involved initial physical torture, and three subsequent years of isolation and sensory deprivation of a prisoner. And then, as a second fact of some note, Pincus chose the story of Al-Owhali interrogator FBI Special Agent Stephen Gaudin without once mentioning the latter’s dubious role in the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah.
A Tale of Two (FBI) Interrogators
The story of the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah in Thailand has been told now many times, in more than one version, and even still all the facts are not known. The Zubaydah interrogation was made famous as the purported experimental test case for the new "enhanced interrogation techniques" (EIT) of the CIA. The famous "second" Yoo/Bybee memo of August 1, 2002 was meant to authorize torture techniques on Zubaydah. The EITs, which included waterboarding, wall slamming, sleep deprivation, stress positions, insects in a confinement box, and more, were derived via reverse-engineering the torture techniques taught in the the "Resistance to Interrogation" classes of the military’s Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape, or SERE survival schools.
One version of the story comes from the testimony of Ali Soufan, one of the FBI agents present at the Zubaydah interrogation. According to his testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee in May 2009, he and his FBI compatriot (who turned out to be Stephen Gaudin), who had supposed great success eliciting information from Zubaydah using standard interrogation techniques, were appalled when James Mitchell and the Counter-Terrorism Center team arrived, and began to implement their harsh form of interrogation. Gaudin, Soufan and "a top CIA interrogator who was working with [them]" protested to their superiors, and the FBI pulled Soufan out. Gaudin stayed for a month or so longer, though Soufan never mentioned that. (Soufan’s testimony also touts as "successful" the elicitation of the supposed "dirty bomb" plot of Binyam Mohamed and Jose Padilla, intelligence that was later discredited, and Mohamed, at least, was released from Guantanamo last year.)
The 2008 Senate Armed Services Committee report (PDF) on detainee abuse was the product of the biggest and longest investigation of U.S. torture outside the Pentagon or the Executive Branch. In their report, Senator Carl Levin’s investigators gave a very different view of what went down in Thailand:
The FBI Special Agent [Soufan] told the DoJ Inspector General that he also "raised objections to these techniques to the CIA and told the CIA it was ‘borderline torture." According to the unclassified DoJ Inspector General’s report, a second FBI agent present [Gaudin] did not have a "’moral objection’" to the techniques and noted that he had "undergone comparable harsh interrogation techniques as part of the U.S. Army Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) training."
[One short paragraph redacted]
(U) According to the DoJ Inspector General’s report, FBI Counterterrorism Assistant Director Pat D’Amuro gave the instruction to both FBI agents to "come home and not participate in the CIA interrogation." The first FBI Special Agent left immediately, but the other FBI agent remained until early June 2002.
In Jane Mayer’s version of events, recounted in her book, The Dark Side, she gives what is essentially Soufan’s version, and even states that both FBI agents, being appalled, left the interrogation, unable to stop the "experiment" that was the EITs. Even so, the SASC’s version is more authoritative, drawing as it does on the May 2008 Department of Justice Inspector General’s report (PDF) on "the FBI’s Involvement in and Observations of Detainee Interrogations in Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan, and Iraq."
The DoJ IG Report is revealing about the actions of Soufan and Gaudin, called Thomas and Gibson in the report, respectively. Not only were these FBI agents present when the CIA arrived, but they participated in interrogations of Zubaydah when he had already been subjected to sleep deprivation, shackling, and stress positions. Indeed, the FBI had been instructed by their superiors when they arrived not to give Zubaydah any Miranda warnings. Even more, Gibson/Gaudin was singled out in the report for participating in the CIA’s use of the EITs, having been assured by the CIA that the techniques were "approved ‘at the highest levels’ and that [he] would not get in any trouble."
Yet, in the end, the IG report absolved Gibson/Gaudin of his participation in CIA torture, noting that at the time of the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah Gibson/Gaudin had received "no guidance" regarding participation in the CIA’s "non-FBI techniques". Instead he had been told that regular FBI procedure was not to be followed (no Miranda warning, no FD-302 interview summaries). As a result, the IG concluded that "under these circumstances, there was insufficient basis to conclude that Gibson’s cooperation with the CIA while the CIA was using non-FBI techniques on Zubaydah violated clear FBI policy." (See pp. 321-324 of the DoJ IG report.)
None of all this, of course, is mentioned in Pincus’s bright and glowing review of the al-Owhali interrogation. But even more, there’s nothing about this in the ISB’s own document, which presents the al-Owhali interrogation as a teaching exercise. That the ISB is disingenous about really reforming U.S. interrogation is made manifest by the other major interrogation case study presented in the report.
The ISB presents the story of Nguyen Tai, "the most senior North Vietnamese officer ever captured during the Vietnam War." After months of brutal torture by the South Vietnamese government — without the production of useful intelligence — Tai is turned over to U.S. interrogators, who keep Tai imprisoned in total isolation for three years, his room "painted all in white, lit by bright lights 24 hours a day, and cooled by a powerful air-conditioner." When some useful intel is finally "educed" out of Mr. Tai, the ISB commentary chalks this up to "the skillful questions and psychological ploys" of the American interrogators, never mentioning the deleterious effects that three years of psychological torture may have produced in the prisoner. Instead, the ISB intones there was no "physical infliction of pain," and leaves the student interrogator to ponder the wonders of "non-coercive" interrogation.
The ISB has been linked to the High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group, or HIG, that the Obama administration implemented as a supposed reform of Bush-era interrogation abuses. While the worst elements of the EITs may have ended — I’ve heard no further reports of waterboarding, for instance — terrible abuses and torture, with roots in the sensory deprivation research of the CIA and military in the 1950s-1970s, and fully implemented in the KUBARK CIA interrogation manual of the 1960s, continue to this day. In fact, we can see that such techniques as isolation, sleep deprivation and sensory deprivation are still a staple of U.S. interrogation, as evidenced by the special techniques reserved for non-POWs in Appendix M of the current Army Field Manual.
One wonders what impulse directed Walter Pincus and the Washington Post to consider rehabilitating the image of an FBI agent heavily criticized in two government investigations of detainee abuse. I suppose one wishes to take care of one’s own, and following the non-accountability orders of the Obama administration, who asks us not to look back at the crimes of the past, that is just what the Post is doing. Or is it? The account of the al-Owhali interrogation is precisely a look back at a sanitized past, which is exactly the kind of past the current administration appears willing to allow. The relative disinterest of many progressive commentators, the press, and Democratic politicians in pursuing an investigation of not just past crimes, but undertaking an examination of the forces at work today in constructing interrogation policy, only ensures that abuses will continue.



56 Comments

recommended and tweeted. thank you for all your hard work on this difficult subject.
Thanks, Suzanne. Didn’t know anyone was up at this hour. Anyway, much appreciated.
Jeff, when Sheldon Whitehouse said “Almost everything we have been told about torture is false”, can you succinctly say what you think he was getting at?
Also, I used to frequent a business that had a pretty extreme set of rules that were strictly enforced. (I won’t say what it was, but it wasn’t a strip club!) For a long time I believed that it was to keep the customers in line. Then one day I realized it was really to keep the employees in line. When you mention the FBI agents leaving disgusted this came to mind. Do you think that this is going on to any extent with torture?
I’m not totally sure what you’re asking. I’m not familiar with Whitehouse’s quote, so can’t say what he was getting at. However, I have made the point many times that the fixation on waterboarding and the EITs has meant that other forms of governmental torture have been ignored. I went into some detail in a diary I often refer to, written at Daily Kos in 2007, “Beware Misdirection on Torture Scandal (The “DDD” Story)”.
As for what happened to the FBI agents in Thailand, or in general, I direct you to the fascinating DoJ IG report linked in the article. It’s a long read, and I don’t think many have penetrated it very far.
I should also mention that the torture included (and may still include) a heavy element of covert testing and experimentation upon the detainees, especially, I have some but insufficient evidence, the gathering of biological markers of stress, and the experiment of using new medical devices to measure that, and correlate readings with various behavioral manifestations, especially as evidenced in interrogation performance, detection of deception, and deciding what “type” might make for a good double agent. There are inferential reasons to believe this, too, such as similar research done that is public, and a long history of previous such actions by the same institutional actors.
A couple of quick comments, because I have an appointment. Good article. I’m pretty sure that any comments about non-FBI procedure cannot refer to a practice of not reading Miranda rights to apprehended prisoners while still overseas. Aafia Siddiqui was apprehended in Ghazni by the Ghazni police, subsequently shot by U.S. military and whisked away to the military field hospital at Bagram, but from that time until she was transported to Brooklyn, she was in the presence of U.S. federal agents (FBI) who were also present at the supposed interrogation session where she was shot, and there were no CIA present at any time (although there were U.S. military, but just warrant officers and translators, as far as I know, no interrogators). At no time was she read her Miranda rights until she arrived in New York, quite deliberately and pointedly.
The doctrine at the DoJ is written quite explicitly into the “torture memoes” and it is still current, and has been affirmed by the D.C. Circuit recently (Rasul v Myers, and Al Maqaleh): no Fifth and Fourteenth Amendment rights for non-citizens outside the U.S. and the FBI interprets that as including Miranda rights, regardless of the interpretation of the ICCPR to include the “Right of Silence”.
Whatever they meant by “non-FBI procedure” it can’t have been Miranda rights.
This has been happening a fair amount in the last few weeks. Makes me ask why?
(my bold)
I am not sure if it is relative disinterest or willful systemic deflection as part of a bigger power play.
Great post. Thank you Jeff.
Nothing in my article is meant to address the controversies or ongoing evolution over the issue of mirandizing suspects, much less foreign “terror” suspects. Nor have I any knowledge of FBI practices on this in 2002. I’m simply reporting what government investigators thought notable. From my non-legal understanding, “non-FBI procedure” meant that these agents were going into a situation where the collection of intelligence didn’t have to hold up to evidentiary standards. Nor were the normal written summaries of the interviews with Zubaydah to be made.
Just what were these FBI agents there for, anyway? At the very least, their function, which was not to act like FBI agents, led very quickly to both operating in an environment that was already abusive to their prisoner, and for one of them to engage in abuse directly with the prisoner, along with his CIA partners.
I am not surprised to hear about the Siddiqui situation, and no doubt you’re aware of what a political football the question of reading Miranda rights to “terror” suspects or “detainees” has become in the past few years.
You quote that the ISB study guide’s ostensible purpose was to give “important recent examples of EFFECTIVE, non-coercive intelligence interviewing with high value detainees.” (my caps)
Isn’t that the point?
Bush and Cheney have made their stand defending their Torture policy and practices on the argument that EIT’s were necessary to make HVD interrogations EFFECTIVE in getting intel info to prevent attacks and thereby save lives.
But here is an official USG specialty publication — ISB study guide — which SHOWS that non-coercive interrogations were EFFECTIVE. It undermines Bush-Cheney’s defense of necessity / effectiveness. And Gaudin is a critical first-hand expert witness to that.
Pincus highlighted Gaudin’s EFFECTIVE rapport-style interrogation (before Bush Torture) of an embassy bomber suspect who talked his way into a life imprisonment sentence without parole in the regular criminal justice system.
Gaudin then participated with Ali Soufan in a rapport-style interrogation of Zubaydah, which also was EFFECTIVE. But they were interrupted and displaced by the CIA/CTC team led by Mitchell, which used coercive, helplessness-style interrogation that was designed to break the victim by making him totally hopeless and dependent, exhausing ability to resist.
At some point, Soufan broke with the program he was seeing. He testified that he essentially threatened or warned the CIA team (“borderline torture”) and told FBI HQ he wanted to arrest them. Recalled to Washington, Soufan apparently continued yelling, and he seemingly provoked crisis at DoJ, where Chertoff and Ashcroft apparently stopped FBI’s protests. (Did FBI ask to investigate, and did DoJ block them? Did FBI then get their story out thru the DoJ IG report of ’08?)
Gaudin reportedly stayed longer in the field on the Zubaydah Torture but then he, too, came out. That makes Gaudin a critical expert witness against Bush and Cheney’s Torture policy and program. He personally participated in an EFFECTIVE rapport interrogation that ended with the terrorist telling his story and going to prison for life. Then Gaudin personally saw the moment of transition in the field when rapport was superceded by TORTURE — as a matter of policy and practice. Ali Soufan already is on record with sworn public testimony boxing Gaudin in.
Gaudin and Soufan are the critical expert witnesses who saw the changes come into the field and saw the results. Soufan has been very public. Pincus has highlighted Gaudin, and the ISB guide has boxed him in on the EFFECTIVENESS of his rapport interrogation experience.
Whatever tribunal eventually confronts Bush and Cheney can take notice of the “proof” from the US government’s specialty report and from these expert interrogators — that RAPPORT WORKS and TORTURE was never necessary to make interrogations EFFECTIVE.
Your comment is a nice example of spin, but it has little in common with the facts, as I understand them. Though I now can’t find a link online to the exact testimony of Soufan before the Judiciary Committee, only his statement, I remember hearing it live, and Graham made Soufan admit that his interrogation of Zubaydah was not Geneva Common Article Three compliant. (Can’t find the link, but here’s one to Marcy Wheeler’s live blog of the event, which mentions the interchange over Geneva.) In fact, wittingly or not, as Soufan and Gaudin tried to regain control of Zubaydah’s interrogation from the CTC team, they essentially played good cop-bad cop with Zubaydah, CIA and its contractors playing the bad cop role.
Furthermore, your comment ignores the DoJ IG report that Gaudin participated in the abuse of Zubaydah, even as they exonerated him for such participation.
Finally, you fail to note the point I made, which is that the ISB report whitewashes the extreme use of isolation in interrogations. This should not be news for the FBI, as they have on occasion used such abusive tactics themselves, which certainly in the case of Nguyen Tai in ISB teaching example rose to the case of outright torture.
Behind these tales of “rapport” and interrogation lie the secretive world of the government interrogators who basically wish to submit to no oversight, and be left alone to practice their art without anyone second-guessing them.
Your point that torture makes for ineffective interrogations is well-taken, and few would dispute it. But how many here know that your version of “rapport” includes the inculcation of a Stockholm Syndrome in the prisoner, via use of isolation, sensory deprivation, and sleep deprivation. That may not be what happened in the case of al-Owhali, but to leave out the ISB study account of Tai’s case is to misrepresent what this government agency is actually advocating.
I should not have written “your version”, but the point is that the version of “rapport” advocated by the ISB and other interrogation professionals is not consistent with the al-Owhali interrogation, but includes abusive interrogations and psychological torture, such as the alternate “rapport” plan advocated for Al Qahtani at Guantanamo in late 2002.
I reject your insulting accusation of “spin” which carries an implicit charge of deceit on my part. My thoughts to you were honest and candid.
I don’t waste my time with verbal abusers.
Your accusation that I am akin to a “verbal abuser” because I characterized your comment as “spin,” merits little response, as being IMO over the top. It’s easier to make ad hominem attacks than answer the substantive points I made in answer to your comment.
You’re kidding, right ? (rhetorical)
Jeff, like many here, I’m anxiously awaiting what you and Jason will share with us.
At the risk of getting ripped, I think I understand what sivil was saying, and I did not think it was ‘spin.’ Now I don’t recognize sivil, and perhaps he/she is a known troll, but if not, I think the response to what I considered a thoughtful comment was, well, rude. And clearly shut down the conversation. Unfortunate, I think.
Jeff… FYI: I usually read you posts, but I don’t often comment, because for me they are a learning experience, and I don’t have much of anything to add. Still, I also appreciate how much hard work you are doing on this extremely difficult topic.
This is no longer the country I was raised to believe in… if it ever was.
I’m also very curious about the piece that you and Jason collaborated on.
Oh man, this is a shame because it looked like it might be an interesting exchange. Why do people have such thin skins? This is politics people. Stop getting your feelings hurt. Sure Jeff called it spin but rightly or wrongly that is rather tame especially if you are having a disagreement. Especially a friggin disagreement about torture. And more generally, if the discussions weren’t a little rude as a matter of routine, then there would likely be nothing to be learned from them. Now, from what I can tell, using google, sivil rarely comments so I don’t think she is a troll. On the other hand, I don’t think Jeff is a “verbal abuser”. He might be a lot of things, but I don’t think he is verbally abusive! So sivil, get your arse back here and respond. Those of us who think dialogue is superior to monologue need an exchange to figure out what the heck to believe!
I thought my comment far from rude, but perhaps I didn’t recognize the sincerity of the sivil’s argument. If so, that was because the comment in general seemed to me to lack an engagement with the very subject matter upon which I wrote.
To sivil’s contention that Soufan and Gaudin had engaged in a “rapport”-style interrogation with Abu Zubaydah, I pointed out that Soufan had admitted before Congress that his interrogation wouldn’t have passed Geneva muster for treatment of a prisoner. Secondly, I noted that the interrogation, under circumstances where it was off and on again with the CIA’s own torture, had degenerated into a good cop-bad cop scenario.
Sivil had written: “Gaudin reportedly stayed longer in the field on the Zubaydah Torture but then he, too, came out. That makes Gaudin a critical expert witness against Bush and Cheney’s Torture policy and program.”
I pointed out that sivil was not mentioning or ignoring that Gaudin had been charged with participating in the CIA’s torture. I also pointed out that this did not make Gaudin the best example of a good interrogator.
Finally, I noted that the ISB guide included an example of an abusive or torture interrogation, that of Nguyen Tai, and that Pincus’s presentation of only the al-Owhali portion of the ISB guide was a misrepresentation of what that guide, and by extension, ISB, was doing.
If any of that constituted rudeness, then it escapes me how. Perhaps you can point it out to me. I know I used the word “spin”, but if that has become some kind of epithet outside of polite usage, then please inform me when that occurred. Political commentators accuse each other of spin all the time. If it was not “spin,” then it was incumbent upon sivil to explain how I was wrong, thereby exposing me for all to see. But that didn’t happen.
Water-boarding isn’t torture. Many a crisis was averted due to enhanced interrogation techniques.
Ah, but perhaps it should and you should, my friend. “Mirandizing” seems like what you characterized it in your response — the whole political firestorm kicked up to get political points during the “undie bomber” to make President Obama look “soft on terror” and therefore quite divorced from the distant fields of SERE and Abu Zubaydah and the netherworld inhabited by prolonged close confinement. If so, please answer one question: Why would it be so profoundly important as to require nominating a Chief Justice to the Supreme Court, a stealth nominee who seemed like a grind the gears just interpret the law no judicial activist type, but who’s one claim to judicial radicalism was that he was a lifelong holdover for overturning — Miranda?
The answer rests in the interpretation that lies at the root of the torture memoes, and at the root of all the torture dreamed up by the Bush administration, and at the root of those court decisions I mentioned, and the reasons why those practices were done. That those rights stop at the water’s edge, that if a regime can be created that stops short of torture and only implement CIDT, then Article 16 does not protect anyone who has had those rights stop at the water’s edge, and if you don’t Mirandize someone explicitly until they reach New York, you are stating explicitly that what they say under what you can argue is short of torture is admissible in a court of law. Cf. U.S.A. v. Aafia Siddiqui. And it will hold up, should it go to the Supreme Court, because the D.C. Court of Appeals has verified the doctrine in the court cases mentioned, and because John Roberts is on record as being against Miranda.
And that’s why Miranda matters when discussing the “torture that isn’t torture”.
I agree with your whole article, but you need to know that Miranda is more than a political sideshow, it’s why you aren’t winning. It’s part of what Bush meant when he said he was working to make his policies permanent before he left office.
As a self-described right-winger, I suppose you are entitled to your views. But I doubt you will find many outside the wingnut establishment who will share your views on water-boarding. “Many a crisis” averted… oh do tell!
I agree with you. I simply don’t have the legal chops to take on the Miranda argument and how it has been twisted and turned over the years. I wasn’t aware of its appearance, for instance, in the OLC memos. But I certainly do get what you say about making torture, or its CIDT (cruel, inhumane, or degrading treatment, which is the language from the Convention Against Torture, for those of you who may not know) acceptable, then stretching out or eliminating Miranda so whatever is “confessed” prior to that is evidence in a U.S. Article Three court.
My sentiments, too.
You know why we’re not allowed to carry liquids on planes anymore? Remember a few years back they discovered an Al-Qaeda plot to hijack and detonate planes over the Atlantic? That almost happened.
You know why it didn’t? The FBI and DHS got some well-founded info from a guy name Khalid Sheik Mohammed. He was captured in 2003. When he was captured he refused to answer questions or give any information. So they water-boarded him. They didn’t torture him. Later on he told them of the plot to blow those planes up in the sky. How many people are alive right now because of enhanced interrogation techniques?
If not for enhanced interrogation that plot would have happened and people would be dead right now; families would be destroyed and children would be without a mother or father.
I just looked that over and I hope I wasn’t speaking in cyphers, I knew what I wanted to say. What I was saying is that be very, very careful in thinking that the FBI was doing anything “non-FBI” by participating in torture, except when their parent organization, the DoJ was writing it up, and therefore making the other organizations the ones that look like lawbreakers. The Miranda point is this: Anywhere the FBI believes you don’t have Miranda rights, the Bush DoJ also believed you had no rights against CIDT, and the Obama administration has defended that Bush DoJ belief, and the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court would gladly write an opinion upholding any opinion the D.C. Circuit would right that would confirm that belief. So if any technique is proposed which anyone assures themselves rises to a level below the level of torture, and we know of many from many departments, including FBI third degrees, interrogation under duress on drugs, solitary confinements, strip and cavity searches, sleep deprivations, etc., then if you know that they are in a place where the FBI doesn’t Mirandize, the you know the FBI also regards an interrogation done by the above methods to be evidence usable in a court of law.
I hope that was a bit clearer.
I know all about the FBI and torture and abuse of prisoners and suspects. If you remember, I did a small write-up of Operation Lightning Strike, a story which I mean to come back to in a larger fashion someday.
That’s very clear, and also helps, I think, explicate the FBI’s instructions to Soufan and Gaudin in Thailand, and why they wouldn’t hold Gaudin responsible for joining in the CIA’s party.
Good, I’m glad I finally got the figure 8 knot out of my tongue. Thanks, Jeff.
Hmmm…as Jeff noted, being a self-described right-winger, let’s assume for argument’s sake that what you say is correct (I don’t of course, but let’s go with the flow here). So answer these questions:
If waterboarding is not torture, and if waterboarding is 100% effective in getting the person to spill all the person knows (as many on the wingnut side, apparently including you, claim), then whyever did the US government not use waterboarding on all of the thousands of its detainees?
And even further, why don’t Federal, State, and Local law enforcement agencies waterboard each and every single person placed under arrest for any violation of law?
If, as you say, it’s not torture, then it must OK to use in any interrogation, right?
And because it’s 100% effective, why wouldn’t US law enforcement agencies use it to solve all crimes?
As a matter of fact joffen, I’d bet that if your local police force gave you a speeding ticket when you weren’t speeding, and you decided to challenge it, you’d have no problem if the police waterboarded you to find out the truth, right?
And I bet you’d have no problem if your local police force continued to waterboard you, maybe even 183 times, until your local police force got the answer they wanted, right?
Now perhaps you might get a glimmer of understanding why wingnuts are held in such low regard.
Your simple questions pierce the absurdity of joffen’s pretense. I wish I’d answered with the same sane questions you provided. I shouldn’t, I know, but I’d love to see what joffen replies.
Really? That’s your response? Do I really have to answer such ridiculous questions?
No, of course it wouldn’t be acceptable. We both know the answer why.
Let me ask this: many U.S. Soldiers as well as FBI agents were water boarded as part of their training. So do you think the U.S. Government tortured our troops?
Not acceptable? Why not? You’ve stated it isn’t torture, so your position is that it is OK.
And if it is OK for some people/situations, why not for all?
You’re gonna have to be black or white here joffen! It is either OK or it is not.
You can’t have it both ways!
Remember the old saying.
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Gung Ho brain dead Special Ops people, and Combat Aircrewmen aside, TORTURE IS A WAR CRIME – PROSECUTE!!! Uncle Sugar’s ‘been breeding the fabricated WW II John Birch Fairytale since the CIA/Catholic Church sponsored Korean ‘Police Action’ of 1950-’53.
They were waterboarded as part of their training to show them that no one is capable of withstanding the level of torture that has been used by our adversaries like the Japanese in WWII whom we tried for war crimes for waterboarding
Which is why most all of the folks who completed SERE training (which stands for Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Extraction in case you were not aware) will tell you that waterboarding is indeed torture.
And fwiw, my understanding is that the actionable intelligence information gathered from KSM came from period where they established a rapport with him (that is, standard GOOD interrogation techniques) rather than the “information” gathered from torture where the victim of the torture will say whatever the interrogators want to hear.
So you believe that our government tortured our troops? Or is it not torture if the reason it’s used is different?
The questions I posed were some that I’ve given a bit of thought to.
I wonder why no one in the MSM asks these same questions of folks like PapaDick and Lizard Cheney, John Yoo and all the other Repug torture apologists when they “authoritatively” insist that waterboarding isn’t torture.
And perhaps the answer is like that of joffen’s. Namely, that it’s acceptable for some people/situations but not all people/situations, and no, they can’t explain why that is.
Kind of like a 3 year old’s answer of “because, just because”.
I never said they shouldn’t use it because it’s torture. Obviously police wouldn’t put handcuffs on you and take you downtown EVERY single time they pull you over for speeding.
Water-boarding is an interrogation technique, but an enhanced one. It is used in special circumstances. What were you expecting me to say? “Damn you liberal geniuses! Your iron-clad argument has spoiled my nefarious plans once again!”
You need to give a bit more thought to your questions. I’m answering them pretty well I think.
So explain to me what the difference between the Washington Post and Fox News???
Oh, nothing… I got it.
Well, as a matter of fact… yes! The SERE schools stopped using waterboarding a long time ago, with the one exception of the Navy SERE schools. They finally stopped as well, under a great deal of pressure from within DoD, because of evidence waterboarding, even at a “training” level was harmful. Because I’ve written extensively on this, and have talked at some length with SERE personnel and trainers, I think I know of what I speak. You can click on my name here and peruse the many articles I’ve written on it…. that’s if you’re actually serious and want to learn more about the subject.
Pretty well? LOL!
Tis in the eye of the beholder.
I believe it was done as part of the training to show the troops just how long they could stand up to it.
Which is not very long.
The troops are not waterboarded 183 for each individual soldier.
I’m sure you’re thinking about how you’re getting over and making us look bad while yo ask these ludicrous questions of us and make your outrageous claims about how waterboarding is not torture.
And you would be sadly mistaken in those beliefs
You’ve still not explained why “waterboarding which is not torture” can’t be used in all interrogations.
After all, if it isn’t torture, then why can’t it be used by your local police to interrogate you?
C’mon, you must have a answer.
Special circumstances? What is special and what is not by your definition?
And why should “special circumstances” matter at all if, as you say, it’s not torture?
Actually, it is torture. Even when it is used by the US government on its own troops as was done during SERE training.
The fact that the US government used waterboarding on its own troops as part of SERE training does not in any way change the fact that it is torture.
I think dakine01′s comment above makes this abundantly clear and undeniable.
Citing SERE training doesn’t and can’t prove your case that waterboarding isn’t torture.
Water-boarding shouldn’t be used for normal interrogations for the same reason tasering shouldn’t. When police taser someone it is perfectly legal and there are no outcries of “TOrTuRE!!!111!!!” from the left.
But there would be outcries from everyone if police were tasering citizens for a speeding ticket. Have I been clear enough?
I beg to differ. I think it absolutely does help prove my case that it is not torture. Why aren’t you protesting in the streets that our government tortured our soldiers for thirty years? Where’s the outcry? Don’t get me wrong: I wouldn’t want to be water-boarded, just like I wouldn’t want to be tasered. I’m sure they both FEEL like torture.
But you can’t seriously sit there (I assume you’re sitting) and tell me that the government committed illegal torture and a “WaR cRIme!!!11!” on our troops.
And you are unable to explain what that “reason” is, right?
Your knowledge of the left is apparently as miniscule as your knowledge of torture. One of Digby’s pet peeves is tasering (and she’s not the only one on both the left and right).
Ummm…clear as…mud. *g*
Water-boarding and tasering are excessive uses of force. They are excessive, yes, but in some cases they are warranted. Water-boarding of someone going 75 in a 55 zone: not ok. Water-boarding of Osama bin Laden: hell yes! where’s the hose? Tasering someone who was caught jaywalking: not ok. Tasering a coked-up guy going 75 in a 55 who’s resisting arrest: ok. Both water-boarding and tasering are not even pleasant to watch and I certainly wouldn’t want to go through it. Again, I would describe both as torture insofar as they feel like it to someone going through it. But FBI interrogators are certainly not war criminals.
In all your commentary thusfar, this is only the first time you’ve made a decent point.
Yes, the waterboarding of our own troops is actually torture, and yes, the US government has gotten away with it for the last 30 years, and shame on us for allowing that to happen without criticism.
Many can rationalize that the waterboarding of our own troops didn’t cause them permanent harm, but that “rationalization” again does not and should not play a role in the actual definition of torture.
The Bush/Cheney regime using John Yoo’s Torture memos tried to “rationalize” that even if the physical/psychological acts would ordinarily amount to torture in the average person’s eyes, by not having the “intent” to torture, our interrogators/torturers might be able to avoid criminal prosecution.
That “rationalization” by John Yoo didn’t even begin to pass the smell test of the vast majority of US lawyers. It even drew withering criticism within the Bush/Cheney regime’s own Department of Justice from the likes of even the 2nd highest official, James Comey, who was Deputy Attorney General.
The fact of the matter is that waterboarding is torture, and you joffen, like all the rest of the American people unfortunately are going to have to live with that fact.
That you are willing to excuse the use of torture says much about you, and it is not pretty.
Jessie Ventura talks about being waterboarded and he says it is torture.
Now you are finally getting to some truth and honesty here. And that’s progress.
I’d rather have those who approve of torture stand up and say so instead of denying that what is taking place is torture. It is a more honest and truthful dialogue.
I can’t say that I like that they approve of torture, but at least it is honest.
Yeah, and many other SERE participants have said the exact same thing.
Again, while torture itself appalls me, I must admit that I find folks who deny torture is torture even more appalling.
I wasn’t saying it WAS torture. It’s not. I was saying that it feels like torture. I’m sure if I forced you to watch Sean Hannity you’d describe it as torture.
Ahh, the disappointment.
Here we were thinking that finally reality set in, but it twasn’t to be.
You came so close, but that final step proved too much.
Well, the truth is out there if you’re ever so inclined.
That’s the funny thing about Truth. It doesn’t disappear just because one denies it. It always hangs around in case you might someday need it.
Well, nice job, MadDog. I’m sure many found it helpful, and maybe something for what I suppose is young joffen to think about.
Your problem is you won’t believe it.
It is Internationally recognized as a war crime and yes bush and cheney are international war criminals, uncharged yet.