As the intense negotiations over a possible plea bargain for former child "soldier" Omar Khadr come to a head, "internationally acclaimed" forensic psychiatrist Dr. Michael Welner has given an exclusive interview to Steven Edwards of the Canadian National Post. Khadr, captured at age 15, has been imprisoned for eight years in U.S. custody, and tortured at both Bagram and Guantanamo, accused of killing a U.S. soldier in Afghanistan in a firefight in July 2002. Dr. Welner has consulted for the FBI, and is a frequent guest on network television. He is a vigorous self-promoter and has been a forensic examiner on a number of high-profile criminal cases.
From Edwards story:
There is no evidence that Omar Khadr has ever independently sought to promote peace with the West and renounce Muslim Jihad, the internationally acclaimed forensic psychiatrist who pioneered efforts to quantify evil reveals ahead testifying about his examination of the Canadian-born terror suspect….
“When one leaps to the conclusion about Omar Khadr’s future because he is friendly, one might recall that Osama bin Laden has always been described as gentle, likeable and charming,” New York-based Welner told Postmedia News.
“There is no record of (Khadr’s) publicly repudiating al Qaida, as civilized Muslims should, not even a letter composed for him by Dennis Edney,” he added in a reference to one of Khadr’s two Canadian lawyers. There is “no call… to radical Islamists to mature beyond their elemental intolerance.”
By the use of terms such as "elemental intolerance", Dr. Welner exposes his bias and political animus towards Mr. Khadr. It carries the same whiff of fanaticism as the statements of former Chief of Neuropsychiatry at Guantanamo Bay, Dr. William Anderson, who wrote that Islamic "hard-core zealots" had "brains that are structurally and functionally different from us," and that 100,000 "zealots" within the Muslim body politic would have to be eliminated, the way "malignant [cancer] cells" are removed from a healthy body.
One wonders what responsibility the young Mr. Khadr had to reach out to "radical Islamists." The entire accusation is preposterous on its face. The attempt to link Mr. Khadr to Osama bin Laden is even worse. It is character assassination, and the evident bias shown by Dr. Welner should be more than enough reason to have his entire testimony and evaluation thrown out of court.
But then this isn’t any old court. It’s the kangaroo proceedings that are the Obama revamped Military Commissions, a judicial setting that allows no courtroom observers, that banned reporters for stating the name of a witness that was otherwise a matter of public record, that allows the judge to admit hearsay evidence from third parties who were coerced, as long as the judge finds it doesn’t cross over into "cruel, inhuman, or degrading" treatment as defined in the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005.
As Daphne Eviatar pointed out last year:
While that sounds good, remember that the Detainee Treatment Act was interpreted by the Bush administration’s Justice Department to allow such “enhanced interrogation techniques” as sleep deprivation, food deprivation, shackling, forced standing in stress positions, and a variety of “corrective techniques” that include physical slaps and grabs – either alone or in combination. The new “protections” in the MCA amendments are therefore not all that reassuring.
Omar Khadr was to be the first sample of "justice" in the new Obama-blessed military commissions. We got a sample of what kind of justice that would be when last August, the MC judge, Army Col. Patrick Parrish, announced there was "no credible evidence" of torture upon Mr. Khadr. And yet, even in the testimony in the case thus far, early interrogations of the then-15 year old prisoner were proven to contain theats of violent rape. Moreover, the U.S. has been contemptuous of international protocols that juveniles under 18 years of age require "special attention", and that "the physical and psychosocial rehabilitation and social reintegration of children who are victims of armed conflict" of such child prisoners is of essential importance.
Andy Worthington described the torture of Omar Khadr in an article last May (or read Mr. Khadr’s own affadavit describing his treatment – PDF):
Khadr stated that he was short-shackled in painful positions and left for up to ten hours in a freezing cold cell, threatened with rape and with being transferred to another country where he could be raped, and, on one particular occasion, when he had been left short-shackled in a painful position until he urinated on himself:
Military police poured pine oil on the floor and on me, and then, with me lying on my stomach and my hands and feet cuffed together behind me, the military police dragged me back and forth through the mixture of urine and pine oil on the floor. Later, I was put back in my cell, without being allowed a shower or a change of clothes. I was not given a change of clothes for two days. They did this to me again a few weeks later.
Ethical Transgressions?
The rest of the Welner interview continues the doctor’s rant. "Civilized Muslims" have repudiated Al Qaeda, implying that without a strong statement from Mr. Khadr doing the same, he is not "civilized." According to Edwards, Dr. Welner states in the interview that "Khadr is known to have expressed peace-loving intentions only to “those advancing [h]is public image…” Even more, Dr. Welner describes Mr. Khadr as "socially agile, charming and more sophisticated," only to remind us — "lest we forget" — that Omar’s father looked "good" enough to gather money for an orphanage, "’yet he was raising money for al Qaida, and (was) a high-ranking member’ of the terror group."
In reference to Dr. Welner’s last example, what should people think who believed once that the politicians who told them they were activating the defense of the United States and promoting the safety of their loved ones from a WMD-armed Iraq, only to find out their tax money was used to invade a country that had no WMD, that the entire story was gamed by the top leaders of the United States to destroy the infrastructure of another nation, kill 100,000s of people, and turn millions more into homeless refugees? These crimes make Omar Khadr’s father look like a mere amateur.
It is difficult to discern the motives behind Dr. Welner’s interview, but the fact there is pending a possible sentencing hearing for Mr. Khadr, or that the issue of Canadian repatriation of the former child soldier is currently a matter of some controversy in Canada (Prime Minister Stephen Harper is adamantly against it), calls Dr. Welner’s actions into some question.
One wonders if Dr. Welner has ever read the Specialty Guidelines for Forensic Psychology (PDF):
Ordinarily, forensic psychologists avoid making detailed public (out-of-court) statements about particular legal proceedings in which they have been involved. When there is a strong justification to do so, such public statements are designed to assure accurate representation of their role or their evidence, not to advocate the positions of parties in the legal proceeding. Forensic psychologists address particular legal proceedings in publications or communications only to the extent that the information relied upon is part of a public record, or consent for that use has been properly obtained from the party holding any privilege.
Perhaps Dr. Welner, who is a forensic psychiatrist and not a forensic psychologist, does not feel himself bound by the ethics of his sister profession. Even so, the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law’s Ethical Guidelines for the Practice of Forensic Psychiatry state that as a matter of confidentiality in a forensic, legal setting, "A forensic evaluation requires notice to the evaluee and to collateral sources of reasonably anticipated limitations on confidentiality. Information or reports derived from a forensic evaluation are subject to the rules of confidentiality that apply to the particular evaluation, and any disclosure should be restricted accordingly." Moreover, the process of gaining consent for an evaluation should include "notice… to the evaluee of the nature and purpose of the evaluation and the limits of its confidentiality."
Did Dr. Welner tell Omar Khadr that he planned to give a public interview to the press on certain aspects of his evaluation of him, an interview moreover on the eve of an important legal hearing for him?
Edward’s interview liberally cites Dr. Welner’s credentials, but never mentions that he has worked closely with the FBI, or that his highly-touted "Depravity Scale" project is the subject of much academic controversy.
It is hard to believe the extent to which the advocates of the demonization of Omar Khadr will go. The U.S. government, and their ally in the Canadian Prime Minister’s office, evidently will go to no end to press their vendetta against the Khadr family. This is the morality of the mob, the morality of true moral depravity. Dr. Welner, look in the mirror.
Or better yet, review this videotape of an interrogation of Omar Khadr in 2004. Did the young man, then age 16, use the opportunity to "call… to radical Islamists to mature beyond their elemental intolerance"? You tell me.
H/T to skdadl for tipping me to the Welner interview



69 Comments

recommended and tweeted — thanks for this jeff
United States Army/Marine Military Police did this to 15 YEAR OLD CHILD. This nation prosecutes adults who even send a sexually tinged text message to a 15 year old child. WE don’t give 15 year olds the right to vote, the right to drive, or the right to drink alcohol. We don’t allow 15 year olds the right to even ENLIST in the armed forces. But we give our Armed Forces the right to do THIS to other nations’ 15 year olds?!?
And this United States Government stooge says that this child has a “ELEMENTAL INTOLERANCE…”
I would say he does. I would to. If I had been treated like from the age of 15 until 24 by the armed forces of a foreign nation, I probably would also haven an “ELEMENTAL INTOLERANCE” of the bastards.
The fact that Obama is even conducting this madness and hasn’t simply released the child, (for how can a 15 year old have “grown up” under these kinds of conditions?!? Look at the women who are trafficked as sex slaves and finally found when they are adults! Their childhood was stolen and their ability to function in the world is severly impaired for a period of time, if not permanently) is itself proof on its face that Obama is no better than Bush.
I am ashamed to call myself an American Citizen. Were there a “loyalty oath” demanded of me right now, I would not give it. They could threaten me with rape too. They can threaten me with being dragged in pine oil and urine, too. Would it matter that I had once served in uniform? Not to these monsters.
What kind of nation are we? I thought that WWII was about stopping this kind of brutality?
Or is that only what we do when its not Muslims on the receiving end and good ole’ American boys on the delivering end?
Where is the outrage? Why is there is not more outrage? Why do we tolerate this fascist bullshit?
I think I’ll stop there. The rest of my thoughts are likely to be moderated…
The saddest part of this is that when (and I don’t think it’ll be long if the republicans get back into the White House) we get into another shooting war in some place like Iran or North Korea, prisoner abuse will be the norm and the protections afforded by the Geneva Convention will be used for toilet paper by the captive power.
There will be no “Protecting Power”, Japanese WWII prisoner-of-war camps will look like fucking five-star Caribbean Resorts and the Hanoi Hilton will look like summer camp.
Americans who come home from those places, if they ever do, will remember who fucked up their lives forever. And their names will George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Barack H. Obama. How’s that for hope and change?
“I am ashamed to call myself an American Citizen.”
Simply solved – move.
Actually, those of us who care are doing everything we can to restore our country’s honor. And that cannot happen until there are criminal prosecutions for these horrific acts.
Or would you rather wonder when you will be the next one these monsters come after for more torture?
Well, it certainly isn’t coming from VORE!
There is no outrage because people either identify with the imperial ambitions and activities of the U.S. government (as does Barack Obama), or they are in fear of openly criticizing same.
For make no mistake. These issues are not just about torture. As my recent investigations into experiments upon detainees makes clear, the misuse of the detainees serves the ends of occupation and imperial expansion. It is not about and never really was about getting information. Interrogation is only one form of prisoner exploitation. The aim is total control, and use of prisoners as torture victims, lessons to others about the almighty US power, as guinea pigs, as use objects for propaganda, and for manipulation as “assets,” i.e., as double agents and informants, and lastly but not least, to force confessions for use as propaganda and other political aims.
Of what moral issue is one 15 year old, when we’re talking exerting U.S. control over the globe? They simply don’t care.
And neither do the mainstream liberals in the press, who rarely raise the issues discussed here. (Carol Rosenberg is one exception.)
Do you have an itinerary and a bus rented? Private Jet? I’m almost there. Let me know.
Please… have you appeared on Coast-to-coast A.M.? You should…
Could you be more melodramatic?
Excellent article, Jeff, and much appreciated.
Ye fucking gods!
This is Welner conducting the “interview” in the video? If so, this guy is not a psychiatrist. He’s a sadist.
In re previous posts:
As emotionally satisfying as it is to vilify George W., Cheney, Obama, et.al.—and I understand the reaction, as I have it as well—such a cause and effect relationship is too simple. What we have been witnessing recently is not just the acts of Big Men. It is far more culturally institutionalized than that. It is a reflection of who we have become—and it is an existential issue. Seventy years of permanent war and fear coupled with the unquestioned article of faith that is American Exceptionalism will get you the psychotic, racist violence we have seen since our “victory” in the Cold War.
Stop being afraid.
Our honor is just fine and will stay fine. I’m glad you care, glad you are passionate… just think it’s misguided.
And I’m not worried about some governmental black ops creep – nor should you or anyone else be. We’ll be fine as well.
And all who are touched by it, even just know of it, and fail to speak out are touched with corruption which then expands to collaboration even as more egregious crimes are exposed and the silence continues out of numbness and denial.
Jeff, you do us such a favor with your reporting. Speaking out is much more than just the facts.
Indeed. Control. Torture is about power and control.
Not enough is known about Control. Agamben, Foucault, Deleuze and William S. Burroughs help.
Burroughs in relation to the video:
“A basic impasse of all control machines is this: Control needs time in which to exercise control. Because control also needs opposition or acquiescence; otherwise, it ceases to be control.”
http://limitedcontrol.posterous.com/the-limits-of-control-by-willi
http://www.limbicnutrition.com/blog/ah-pook-is-here-by-william-s-burroughs-phillip-hunt-film/
“brains that are…..different from ours.” This is from a Dr? Where have we heard that language before?
Perhaps you would find it more melodramatic if you were in Guantanamo, or lived in a village where drones flew overhead all day long, and families cowered in fear?
Just go back to your regular life, and hope the portion of historical reality you currently live in doesn’t shift in your own lifetime, shaking your head at the poor melodramatic hysterics who don’t know when they had it so good.
No, I don’t believe it’s Welner conducting the interrogation in the video. That is next to impossible. I also never meant to imply it was. I hope that’s clear.
I know I’m not afraid, but on the other hand, Cointelpro wasn’t just somebody’s paranoid fantasy.
Jeff – this is another fine piece you have written, I read nearly every post of yours, I know you are absolutely immersed in this subject, but I hope you get to pause once in a while just to refresh and recharge your batteries.
As for outrage, I cannot respond in the way I would like without being modded, have been modded recently for opining about Colin Powell.
Sorry. I wasn’t sure.
In the US, Dr. is a Mandated reporter?
Another simple solution – overcome the likes of you and your ilk. A lot of people objected to Slavery in the United STates too at one point.
Women were denied the right to vote for over 100 years. Did we tell all the women to move?
I would have been equally ashamed of the United States during Slavery, during Women’s Repression, during WWII when the US imprisoned Americans of Japanese descent, of Americans of Italian and German descent.
I would have been ashamed to be an American during the “Manifest Destiny” when US Cavalry trampled innocent Native American women and children.
I would have been ashamed of this nation many times.
The LBGT community, right now, is the other pariah of our times, along with Americans of Muslim faith. Do you propose they should all “move” too? Since they are probably equally ashamed of America?
No. They won’t move. The Northern Yanks didn’t “move” when people like you told them Slavery was okay. They just taught the South a lesson. Did the Americans standing up for Civil Rights listen to the VORES of their day when they were ashamed of America?
No. They stood up, risked life, and MADE IT CHANGE. They Changed America.
And I plan to do the same. With everyone else here at FDL, in my community, in my state, and in my nation. We plan to purge this bullshit from our shores. For this is NOT what America is about.
I suggest you move, Vore. Just like the people who all wanted to “Go Galt” when Barack Obama was elected. Go Galt, VORE. The PEOPLE of this nation plan to take this nation back. One blog at a time, one march at a time, one petition at a time, one election at a time.
Loud applause.
Hear!! Hear!!
One thing that is especially nagging on me about this interrogation is how the interrogator is saying to Khadr (and here’s the sadism, the psychological rape, the utter objectifying dehumanization that is going on): “I have no power. You, Khadr, are the only one who has the power to help yourself.”
But of course Kahdr has no power. Not even the most elemental power to kill himself. He must beg even for that.
It is impossible to extricate oneself from this catch-22. It is why the detainees are never released. It is for the same reason Yossarian couldn’t stop flying.
This reminded me of a Wolfowitz quote from the recent Leopold/Kaye article that Jeff wrote about here. [I wrote about this quote @25, there]
Just disgusting.
Quite diabolical. When we read about such things in books like Darkness at Noon, we shake our heads and think how awful the Soviets were. Who knew the KGB and Stasi would be the models for modern American penology? And who can deny that many forensic psychological/psychiatric experts are in fact adjuncts of the state apparatus at this point, objectifying rebellion or deviancy from the societal norm as a mental disorder.
Here’s another egregious quote from Welner [from the Edwards article]:
moralizing, self-aggrandizing, authoritarian crap.
You’re right. What we see is not confined to national borders. (Ha! It is why moving, as suggested above, is no solution: there is no place else to go.) It is not a function of a particular state, or probably even a particular culture. And, like the Soviet courts, this control mechanism helps explain why folks like Welner arrive at the rational conclusion that deviance must be a physiological aberration, a genetic shortcoming, an evolutionary dead end in relation to “civilization.” From this perspective, the problem of rebellion is correctible only through eugenics . . . or Room 101.
And this creates the context for rationalizing sadism and violence as well as what constitutes proof in these kangaroo courts. Welner can correctly witness no “deeds” because Khadr, in his thoroughly powerless, de-humanized status as detainee, literally can do nothing. Khadr cannot act because he has been denied the ability to be a subjective, willful human. The operators of Guantanamo have rendered him inhuman, an inanimate object.
That’s my thought as well. As the nation-states and corporate oligarchs consolidate their grip on power, using technology to suppress, spy upon, and intimidate the populations they can control, I don’t think anywhere is going to be safe if we all think that moving or running is the solution.
At some point, we will all run into a dead-end, and then we will have to collectively turn around and finally DEAL with it. Do we do that now? Or do we run and leave that fight to our children? Our grandchildren? I don’t think it’ll be left to their kids – the tyranny will be complete before another two generations come along. I think that by the end of the 21st century, there will be one of two outcomes:
(1) The Brave New World Order will have come into being, and will be both as Aldous Huxley envisioned it as well as how Orwell envisioned it.
(2) The people of this world, of all nationalities, cultures, religions, and ethnicities, will have sufficiently resisted, torn down, and repelled this tyranny so that freedom still has a chance.
There’s nowhere to run. No “new world” to flee to. Even if there was a way to fly to Mars or get to another “earth-like” planet, do you think that the Corporate Masters and Military-Industrial Vampires would let the peaceniks and freedom-loving people get there unmolested?!? No. Its going to be their new playgrounds, new lands to rape and pillage. THe fight is either won or lost here, on the planet Earth. And these diabolical bastards come in all varieties of religion and ethnicity and nationality.
But the good news is that those of us who choose to resist also come in all those same flavors. And there are at least a 100x more of us than them. Its just a matter of getting the word out and waking people up from their voluntary slumber to remove the shackles of their invisible bondage.
Resist, in re your last paragraph: Nonviolent resistance and agreement resistance work because they both operate outside the confines of Control and are not susceptible to bondage, invisible or otherwise, and do not require one to react to oppression or be objectified by it. Nonviolence also, according to Bob Altemeyer, has the potential to affect authoritarians.
Individual personal experience helps here (learning is ultimately internal and subjective). I was lucky enough to get some learning early when I was a kid in the military during Gulf War Part I. Control is the Great and Powerful Oz. But like Oz, it is an illusion. When you have the experience of pulling back the curtain, you discover there are no leaders, no immutable force, no reason to defer to authority. There’s only a snake oil salesman from Kansas who doesn’t even know which levers to pull. When you realize the essential weakness of Control, you no longer need to be afraid. If Control needs either “opposition or acquiescence,” be neither. That’s how you beat Control and its authoritarian handlers.
Well said!
Well spoken. Nonviolence is the absolute key. To do otherwise is to revoke our own moral authority while simultaneously giving them such. Which is undeserved on their part and unnecessary on our part.
YOu’re right – their power is inversely proportional to our fear, hatred, and ignorance. To remove those 3 things would be revolutionary and game-changing.
I met Welner a few years ago, during a period my daughter was required by her office to use Welner in several prosecutions. She warned me beforehand, saying something to the effect that there was just something wrong with the guy; competent on the stand, etc., but he creeped out all the asst. & deputy prosecutors.
Self-promoting is a real understatement. He was almost tangibly unctuous, while exhibiting an air of near-desperation in his efforts to sell himself to everybody in sight. He made me think of a Ponzi promotor who knows he’s got to get this next investor, because his scheme is on the verge of collapsing.
Having met Welner in a setting less structured than in the witness box, I found him not believable.
Here is a 2003 article by Welner:
Response to Simon: Legal Relevance Demands That Evil Be Defined and Standardized; Michael Welner, MD; J Am Acad Psychiatry Law 31:417–21, 2003
http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/reprint/31/4/417.pdf
The last paragraph:
[oy! And what is it with the religious overtones?]
And here is an article responding to it [5 years later]; it is also the article that Jeff links to in regard to “academic controversy” about Welner’s theories:
The Recurrence of an Illusion: The Concept of “Evil” in Forensic Psychiatry; James L. Knoll, IV, MD; 2008
http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/1/105
…in which
JK:
[I hadn’t seen that post by Jeff before. Yikes!]
Kroll:
Why indeed?
The entire Kroll piece is well worth reading, imo.
Yes, I linked to the Kroll piece in the article (see link at “academic controversy” above for a HTML version of the article you cite). Kroll is the editor of Psychiatric Times, and an authority in his own right. I agree his article is well worth reading. Thanks, too, for the quote from Welner’s piece, and to gannonguckert @34 for the personal observations.
The whole “depravity” scale thing is quite creepy, and scientifically bogus. His advisory board has four defense attorneys and seven prosecutors and eight “law enforcement,” besides the various clinical or forensic professionals. The weight of prosecutorial/law enforcement to defense (almost 3 to 1) speaks volumes about the inherent bias of this “scientific” project.
I thought this quote from Kroll quite important:
I see AlterNet picked up this story for reprint:
http://www.alternet.org/rss/breaking_news/304222/the_psychiatric__demonization_of_omar_khadr/
Wow! So Welner’s a real crusader of the Big <>>.
If Welner & Co. are at all informed than they can’t be honest, because IMHO it’s impossible to overlook that Khadr may not be guilty of shooting at special forces, or that Khadr was shot in the back, probably by those same special forces, or that he received poor medical care for that wound, or that he was tortured, or that he was 15 and about as capable of making “lifestyle choices” as any other 15 year old.
“Dr. Welner states in the interview that “Khadr is known to have expressed peace-loving intentions only to “those advancing [h]is public image…”
I suppose that according Welner & Co, this is evidence of Khadr’s “craftiness” or “sociopathic personality” or something. Actually I think Welner may be the sociopath, because as a psychiatrist he should recognize that kids, even teenagers, still crave stability, parental love and all that other stuff.
I refuse to call this man a doctor. I think he’s about as MD as a doctor who works for insurance companies. Totally compromised.
Actually only the first part, then links here.
Well it’s almost Halloween, and I just saw Halloween the movie. As much as I like “big undefined ominous Evil” in my horror movies, I don’t buy it in real life. Seems Welner’s borrowing his turgid little narrative from a horror movie like Halloween where the psychiatrist acts as the hero and has lines like: “I met him when he was 6 years old. I looked into his eyes and they were pure black. There was nothing there at all. It was Pure Evil.”
To subject a kid like Khadr –who may be innocent of even shooting back at special forces shooting at him— to a creep like Welner, now that’s a crime.
“It carries the same whiff of fanaticism as the statements of former Chief of Neuropsychiatry at Guantanamo Bay, Dr. William Anderson, who wrote that Islamic “hard-core zealots” had “brains that are structurally and functionally different from us,” and that 100,000 “zealots” within the Muslim body politic would have to be eliminated, the way “malignant [cancer] cells” are removed from a healthy body.”
Is that “doctor” advocating genocide? Because that sounds a lot like genocide.
I saw part of this video. Cagedprisoners has it. It’s impossible to watch. Dreadful. Whoever participated in that psychiatric torture is sick.
I think your use of the term “demonization” in the title is elucidated by Kroll’s commentary, and I meant to write that in the comment. [I did mention that it was the article you linked to. ;-) ] I looked at that list of advisors, too. You make a good point. Thanks for breaking it down like that. I’m really glad AlterNet picked up on this. Congratulations!
Yes you did. Oops for reading too quickly. Sorry for the oversight.
The interrogators in the video are agents of CSIS (Canadian Security and Intelligence Service — think CIA).
CSIS agents, like a few reps from the dep’t of foreign affairs (DFAIT), were sent down to GTMO at least three times in 2003-04 (I’m doing this from memory, but that can be checked). They did not go to help or represent Omar, a Canadian citizen in trouble abroad, but to mine him for intel and then pass it on to the U.S. government. The Supreme Court has ruled that Omar’s Charter rights were violated in this process, which is how the video got released in the first place.
See Welner’s smarmy praise of Omar’s DFAIT visitors, who were in fact violating Canadian law and whom Omar figured out pretty fast.
I also see veiled bigotry in many of Welner’s comments about Omar and Muslims. When he calls Omar “socially agile,” eg, in contrast to all the other prisoners, I suspect he means that Omar speaks English like a North American (southern Ontario), for the obvious reason that he is one — not like all those other funny foreigners down there, who aren’t socially agile because they don’t sound like Welner!
Anyway, thank you so much for taking the guy on, Jeff. I knew you had the special depth to give background to this charlatan’s gassy pronouncements. Excellently well done, and I’m off to tweet it again and the Alternet connection too — have to keep this rolling.
Oh, absolutely no need to apologize. I am much more likely to do stuff like that [especially lately, for some reason] than you are. I just wanted you to know that I actually did read most of your links this time…so you know all your excellent work’s not in vain! I hope there’s more discussion on this topic today.
I also want to thank skdadl,for bringing the Welner interview to Jeff’s attention.
There you are, skdadl! Good Morning and see my @45.
Hi, harpie, and thanks. As Jeff says above, it’s like pulling teeth trying to get people to take this most important issue — torture, and everything associated with it, including the rationalizations — seriously. People are afraid — of what? Of getting depressed? Of recognizing where we are and getting really scared? I find it helps more to keep working on the detail than just to let the vague awareness fester at the back of my mind. So it’s great to have people like y’all to talk to who feel the same way. If only that would become contagious …
Thanks, skdadl, for the info on the tape. I’d always wondered how that tape got released. The whole story of the taping system at Guantanamo has been little covered. The Seton Hall folks have claimed that every interrogation at Guantanamo was taped. We know they started using digital hard drives at one point, and that the government claimed that many of them were erased, “routinely” of course. And then we have the minutes of that October 2002 meeting with Beaver, Fredman, the two BSCTs (Leso and Burney), Phifer, Dave Becker, etc., where they discussed videotaping. Becker is DIA, Beaver a legal counsel at Gitmo and Fredman CIA:
Fascinating. One interesting thing we learned from the Supreme CT case about Canadian intel-sharing with the U.S. was that the U.S. was claiming not to have many docs any longer … which CSIS still has! CSIS can has copies!
The court ordered the release, however, only of material gathered by Canadian agents and reps, so that’s all we got. They also had a very interesting judge, Richard Mosley, vet the material before release. Justice Mosley has turned out to be an excellent judge repeatedly on this file — he’s the guy who released the videos and some pretty embarrassing memos, even though he is also the former civil servant who drafted our anti-terrism law in 2001-02.
Rundown of the release of footage by Andy worthington http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2008/07/15/screwed-up-and-abused-omar-khadrs-canadian-interrogations-at-guantanamo/
Plus link to documents:http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/v5/content/pdf/KhadrDocuments.pdf
I wonder if Welner thinks “(using) the opportunity to “call… to radical Islamists to mature beyond their elemental intolerance,” means following in big brother’s footsteps and an apparent stint in the CIA. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/khadr/interviews/khadr.html
I hope not. I really, really hope not.
Thanks, Jeff, as always. And thanks, skdadl.
I cried reading all this, including the comments.
Those interrogation videos were shown on NATIONAL NEWSCASTS in PRIMETIME here in Canada. And still … no systemic sympathy for any justice for this boy.
I have read recently some stories about Khadr’s life in detention that showed ME he is actually a fine human being, with many “normal” behaviours. Perhaps I am not a sociopath so I can see it. And there are days when I think Omar Khadr is more sane than I am. He has said he will not concede anything to the US attempt to achieve their kangaroo conviction. Quite the statement of courage from a 15/23 year old in his circumstances.
In general I find myself really, really touched by the stories from Arar, Khadr, and the UK detainees about how their faith sustains them and makes meaning of their tragic circumstances. It’s very impressive, altho’ that’s not really the right word.
And I am evermore disgusted with psychology and psychiatry as fields of study and practice. No offense to the good practitioners here in our midst. It’s just not safe to put oneself under this kind of examination anymore even in the interests of “getting help.” There is something very twisted going on that not even ethical values can combat. And it has been going on evermore.
I also recognize as someone said above that all this resonates in American society. We don’t physically torture people on streetcorners, but psychological, emotional, and economical torture is engaged, ignored, and dismissed, and excused on a daily basis in private and public arenas. It’s all connected. It’s horrifying.
A legal day of reckoning is coming for the misleaders of the psychological and psychiatric community, if I read my sources correctly, and follow my own look into things.
You couldn’t actually do what they did without leaving traces. Even a Special Access Program must articulate with the non-classified world at various points. Wherever this has happened, they have left open weaknesses. And then, there are people on the inside who couldn’t stomach it.
A major overhaul of the institutions of this society is in order, lest the rot turn to gangrene. I believe such a huge change is coming. But when you’re sunk in the mire, it’s hard to see any sky.
I have only absorbed 10% of what is in this thread, so at what place in the topic thread to file this, comment is a ? I should just keep reading, but like a glass that is still half empty, I must drain out the remainder. Thanks for all the great work, and feel free to scroll on, I may be imposing some with this. But I can’t see it as free standin diary materal either. Thanks, this stuff is too heavy but is where the nut of it seems to be.
One of the psycho-active drugs used in experiments, which were “enlightening” was lysergic acid diethylamide. which was enlightening, as it helps illuminate the subconcious mind, that is normally not completely, (understatement) available to the conscious mind. That may not be the purpose of dosing a subject, you would have to ask em, but that the unconcious mind, could be looked into has since early times, and later “Freudians” and analysts attempted with rorschach responses and word assoc. etc, Not that I have more than “a passing” familiarity with any of this. Aldous Huxley: ” Doors to Perception”: http://www.amazon.com/Doors-Perception-Heaven-Hell-P-S/dp/0061729078/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1287692145&sr=1-1-fkmr0
Cutting to the chase: There really must be no more important feature in human society than the complicity that is offered by those who are governed to allow that they will be docile, and willing to go about their daily routines, and not “rock the boat.”
If they get too wise, ( like a bull that is too smart/balky-dangerous for farmer Brown to manage, the masses too may be deemed best saved from a too keen awareness of what is in store for em, or they would bolt. ( ie: if they could see the psychic energy that is either wafting away into the ether, or syphoned by any other name…
I mean all you have out there ultimately is… Death and Taxes… So like it or not, in efforts to simply manage and make it work, it really is agriculture in that way.
The consent of the governed is achieved through conditioning, that is related to the phenomenon of suspension of belief, that makes smooth the clever workings of Hollywood through history class, or… every minute of every day, the unconscious mind must be overridden and suppressed, or there will emerge some inklings that may go counter to desired ends. IE: Peter Pan: as template: cultured arrested development, signature of an intensely managed hot house population. cite: the binding of feet by early Chinese culture, might be analogous. Though less Western, and industrialized, along the lines, of Edward Bernays work: http://www.google.com/search?q=century+of+self&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&prmd=v&source=univ&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&ei=75nATOSaOoX6sAOC8tGBDA&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCIQqwQwAA
The unconscious is a dangerous thing: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049223/
The collective unconscious is the big Kahuna, which may also be tapped at times.
No cite for that right now. possibly a related sense of this from Jung’s “Synchronicity”
or some hints there in Hawking’s “a Brief History of Time.”
Lsd was the drug promoted by at least two well known reputed “operatives” Remember…”Turn on tune in drop out”. (1960′s) That is one of the rarest drugs in todays illicit drug market, it is said.
I think you are more optimistic than me.
I think you are right. There are cultural connections between what’s going on in Gitmo and society at large. Major example I can think of is the trial by media Nancy Grace shows, but it goes deeper than that. And I think society is being poisoned by what goes on in Gitmo & the wars. And it doesn’t just affect Muslims, but women, Latinos,Blacks and LGBT. It affects people in the military, veterans as well.
I don’t think clinical psychiatrists & psychologists are to blame- the ones who work hard to keep patients with very bad illnesses alive and functioning. I do blame the self-promoting type of research boob. And I think the self-promoting aspect of our culture can infect professions and then we get these harmful jerks like Dr. Welner or the other torture doctors. As far as I’m concerned, they should no longer be doctors. They’ve broken the Hippocratic Oath.
And I think you are right that Khadr seems to have some good understanding. Which is amazing after all that’s been done to him. Every person is fragile and every person will crack under torture and such circumstances to a certain degree. Psychologists know that better than anyone.
Why is an expert witness in the trial going around giving interviews to the media and attacking the defendant?
I never heard of such a thing. What kind of absurd trial is this?
Our minority Conservative Government has brought shame to Canada in a number of ways internationally, but their failure to intervene in this case after the Canadian Supreme Court declared that the process was illegal and Khadr’s rights were being violated, is the worst of all.
Its a kangaroo court. America is now the largest 3rd World Banana Republic on the planet, and we are showing our asses with this trial. “Absurd” is a nice way of putting it.
What these developments mean to… we the… civility. you know like… “oh the humanity… ” comment about the Hindenberg disaster… well now…
… This is weak I agree…
“Oh the… lack of… civility… ”
torure more and enjoy it less? We caint say what we wants to, it wouldn’t be nice.. !
when the end times ever do come… torture and hell will be a big part of the festivities, IE: lack of viddles… well what do you think is on the f’n menue then ? ans: anybody slower and dumber, etc. It is established practice going back through time. Nothing new under the sun…
Carol Rosenberg and Michelle Shephard are tweeting that Welner is on the plane now heading down to GTMO. There are others who are witnesses for sentencing, not trial, so that suggests either that they’re pretty sure the plea deal is going through or it actually is a done deal.
This is so wrong.
Thanks for the info, skdadl. I’m not a twitterer, but I found Rosenberg here:
http://twitter.com/carolrosenberg
Note the info about a state dept PR person ["If there's a plea deal, State has to orchestrate it."] Also, victims of 2002 al-Qaeda raid where Khadr was captured-sounds like a show “trial”…nifty that it’s happening before the Nov2 election!
Here’s the Twitter page [?] for ” #Khadr ”
http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Khadr
Do you think any one is arguing this purely about “civility?” Or that we don’t already know waterboarding is old spanish Inquisition practice.
I don’t understand your comments, so I’m trying to make sense here. I think cynicism is poseur crap.
You are right there, Mui thanks: for the correction.
I request that my offending/frivolous comments @ 59 be deleted or at least taken with a grain of salt. As for @ 54 That is a rambling list including half baked thoughts and obcsure readings, that I might revisit again on my own dime, after I have reread some of it… But thanks
I am momentarily interested in looking mainly at the effects of torture in the sense that it seems to be more than what it is… Do we agree it is not about securing valid info? or beyond that that it is not about reforming or rehabilitating troubled and troubling refugees from the hinterlands?
IE: the message is the media is the message… does that make any sense? Or see it as: that they do these things is somewhat for the benefit of the observers, even if secrecy seems to try to cover, it is never the less… leaked to you and me. Maybe that is a mere side business.
This subject is important and needs down to earth resolution by those who are able to work in that milieu, more unflappable than the likes of me.
I will try to keep any future comments more in line with that, and loose the offbeat attempts at gallows humor, or gratuitous cynicism.
Questions 1,2, 3: yes.
I believe acts of terror (often by the government) –lynching, disappearing, torture — are sometimes aimed at isolating, dividing or terrorizing civilian populations. So in that way it’s aimed at the observer, not only at persons of Muslim background but probably everyone, if that’s what you mean by observer(?)But I also believe that that message can backfire on the messengers, and I believe it also has historically.
One cannot imagine the pressure Omar Khadr is under. I cannot blame him if he takes the deal. At least there’s some end in sight, and perhaps he hopes or is told that he will get out even sooner perhaps. We must be careful not to project our wishes and desires upon him. Of course, I hope he resists and fights for full freedom, but lord knows how beaten down the poor young man must be.
Yes that is my point, that the main purpose of terror, which includes [torture] is to soften up a population.
I would think the goal of the lawyers is to get Khadr out of Gitmo, since that environment is one in which he has zero rights. We don’t even know if he receives even half of the letters that are sent to him. Anything can happen to a person in an environment where a person is basically isolated, disappeared from the rest of the population without any rights whatsoever and almost zero communication with the outside. (see dictatorships of Chile, Argentina etc. because all faith is blown here.) And apparently the medical care is maliciously crappy there as well. So a plea deal that gives him even the rights of a normal prisoner would be preferable, but not the most desirable outcome.
geoshmoe@67. Yeah agreed.
And apparently the food is maliciously crappy as well and minimal. Beets & melted cheese sandwiches (See Moazzam Begg’s book).
I don’t know if much has changed since the Obama administration. From the sound of it, Gitmo is still a hellhole.