As more details are revealed about the background of purported 22-year-old shooter Jared Loughner, who is in custody currently for the shooting in Tucson today of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, Federal Judge John Rell and a number of others, at least five of whom have died, a number of people are speculating about his possible mental illness. One diagnosis that keeps arising is schizophrenia. It’s worth looking into what that might mean.
Over the course of my psychology career, I have worked with schizophrenic individuals, and most are quite afraid of the world, and are far more likely to be victims than victimizers. However, there are a small minority whose delusions have led them to commit crimes.
I am a licensed psychologist and from afar, and am not in the position to diagnose Mr. Loughner. However, one can make some initial impressionistic comments based upon the video content he posted on YouTube. The autistic, in the sense of highly encapsulated and personal, nature of his thought processes, his emphasis on coercion from without (see his discussion about being taught letters of the alphabet), the strange nature of his logic and language, the paranoid attitude toward the world in general, are consistent with known cases of schizophrenia, paranoid type.
I cannot know if he is the shooter, but his videos do display a garbled mixture of political concerns, and there is a great deal about conscience (“conscience dreams”), about not doing wrong, about the definition of “terrorist”, about “grammar” and “currency”, about “brainwashing” and “mind control”. At times, appears as if he’s grappling with something struggling inside himself.
There are also indications of a sense of multiple internal selves, or a dissociated kind of experience (“conscience dreaming”) that may also mean he had dissociated personality as well. In fact, this combination of dissociated identity and schizophrenia is much more highly associated with violence than schizophrenia alone. Then again, his comments may only appear to indicate such dissociative processes, and be better accounted for by a thought disorder.
If one researches the words “conscience dreaming” online, you will find a YouTube video with that title, not by Mr. Loughner, and no connection with the latter is inferred, except that he may have watched the video. The video concerns three characters, The Agent, The Assassin, and The Dream Maker. There is also one imprisoned anonymous character. I find it quite coincidental to say the least that a phrase the supposed shooter used a number of times links to such a video which has such characters in it.
I would caution against implying any politics to someone who appears so disturbed, as his interpretation of political symbols and phrases are interpreted in a highly idiosyncratic and irrational way. However, if he were susceptible to violence, then the targets available by the given society, i.e., the rhetoric out there in the society, would have pointed him towards liberals, leftists, Muslims, or other minorities, and that kind of rhetoric has mainly been from the right-wing, as has been copiously commented upon.
As for whether such a person could be manipulated, it’s possible, but if he is as insane as he appears, he would have been a very unstable person upon which to base any such conspiracy. I tend to think, despite his talk about mind control and brainwashing, that he was not the subject of any such conspiracy. More likely, these concerns are more about such an individuals anxieties and paranoia about being controlled from without, about things outside himself threatening to invade his personal world. Concern with brainwashing is a common thread in narratives from schizophrenic individuals.
However, this doesn’t mean that mind control conspiracies by the government don’t exist. I’ve documented government documents, including of contemporary vintage, that prove such activity by the government still occurs. If one reads the history of this kind of research, attempts to really use mind control are not applied to schizophrenic individuals, though one does look for highly suggestible individuals, and then apply drugs and hypnosis and other programming techniques. The success or failure of such enterprises is highly classified.
My condolences to all who were affected by this terrible tragedy in Tucson today.
Update:
Here’s an example taken from one of Mr. Loughner’s videos, showing the strangeness of his thinking and language, which is circular, syntactically intact, but with extremely opaque meaning, which relies on repetitiveness. The language implies something very profound, which only the thinker understands:
Firstly, the current government officials are in power for their currency, but I’m informing you for your new currency! If you’re treasurer for a new money system, then you’re responsible for the distribution of a new currency! We now know — the treasurer for a new money system, is the distributor of the new currency. As a result, the people approve a new money system which is promising new information that’s accurate, and we truly believe in a new currency. And above else, you have your new currency, listener?
Second, my hope is for you to be — literate! If you’re literate in English grammar, then you comprehend English grammar. The majority of people, who reside in District 8, are illiterate — hilarious! I don’t control your English grammar structure, but you control your English grammar structure.
This is not the ramblings of a right-wing crackpot, which some have claimed Loughner to be, but gibberish. This doesn’t take away from the possibility Loughner reacted to right-wing propaganda, but quite likely out of madness, not political motivation, such as we understand such motivation.



193 Comments

1)IF we find out the suspect suffers from a mental illness, the message we walk away from from this day is… these incidents rarely happen in Canada and in Europe. They don’t happen in Canada and Europe for a reason. The people that need mental health treatment in Canada and Europe get treatment.
Mental Health care in the United States is abysmal.
St. Ronald Reagan – patron saint of the annihilation of the American “expensive wasteful” mental health system
Practically everything spewing out of AM talk radio is mind control propaganda, Jeff. And from all appearances it seems to be working rather well among a large enough sector of the population.
An array of right-wing foundations and think tanks support efforts to make bigoted and discredited ideas respectable, and what David Neiwert terms ‘the Transmission Belt’ propagates them. Is this not mind control?
——
Last night it occurred to me, while thinking about the new attack on public employee unions, in conjunction with Conservative Caucus leader Howard Phillips’ statement that the mission for the right is to “organize discontent,” that there is a connection to the US torture regime’s aim of causing DDD: the right want Americans to regress to the terrible twos, before we’re taught to share and act like civilized adults.
By encouraging everyone to have a chip on their shoulder and to feel that life is unfair, and encouraging acting out on impulses, and living addicted lifestyles: addicted to TV, sugar, shopping, gambling; encouraging narcissism…….the right is tearing down civilization, in the US.
——-
I recommend reading The Nazi Seizure of Power by William Sheridan Allen to see the parallels between the propaganda spewed by the media and the way in which the Nazi party insinuated and propagated their ideology into German society, causing animus and conflict.
——–
Loughner listed Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto among his favorite books. He expected to be killed today.
He may be certifiably mentally ill, but the environment that is purposely being created by the media is conducive to sending people over the edge. We are living through Shock Therapy, intentionally inflicted on us by Wall Street. Intended to make us malleable.
.” However, there are a small minority whose delusions have led them to commit crimes.”
Okay, and what exactly are the statistical chances that the random victims include not only a liberal congresswoman but also a Federal Judge?
Thank you for this informative post.
My real question is: Would these people be alive this evening without map crosshairs and hate radio, or not. What do you think, as an expert? I do not know.
Not just anybody’s crosshairs. Those of a public figure, of someone who was in charge of governing people.
Unless there is some evidence of his being directed towards these victims intentionally, we can assume he picked them up from the general political spew of hate that surrounded him. In that way, as a number of people have pointed out, the right-wing violent imagery in talking about political opponents, or the extreme talk of killing public figures, such as Julian Assange, that comes from even “responsible” media sources such as Washington Times Conservative columnist Jeffrey T. Kuhner, who called for Assange to killed as a “terrorist target”, must bear some responsibility for the events today. And then there is the already notorious target map put out by Sarah Palin.
Having spent many years of my life working in a locked psychiatric unit as a nurse, I can attest that the majority of our schizophrenic clients, though sometimes frightening, especially to those not familiar with the illness, were not dangerous. However, clients diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia will sometimes act on their paranoid delusions.
I have personally seen how difficult our mental health system can be to navigate. Family members would call me and beg for help, but help is available only under a very special set of circumstances. Sometimes people will seek treatment voluntarily, however, in order to commit a person involuntarily they have to meet certain criteria, either DTS (danger to self), DTO (danger to others) or GD(gravely disabled). The greater problem is that now it is very difficult to obtain any type of outpatient treatment, as insurance generally will not pay for it, or pay only a very small amount. Most people simply cannot afford any more to pay for mental health treatment.
recommended.
You are correct, and I am looking forward to reporting on exactly what kind of treatment Mr. Loughner received, if any.
Thank you, Jeff. This is very important information for us all at this time.
I wonder whether it would really be so extraordinary for florid mental illness and organized right-wing political activism to be combined.
People tend to assume that cold, calculating instrumental rationality is incompatible with mental illness, and it just isn’t. I once saw a quotation from a criminal defense lawyer saying that it’s impossible to get a hit man acquitted through the insanity defense, even though it’s common for hit men to be floridly psychotic. No jury will ever believe that a hired killer belongs in a mental hospital rather than a prison, although that would often be the right decision to make.
And if a hit man can be psychotic, why not a political assassin?
What do you get when you have no mental health system and lots and lots of guns?
Many days like today.
more info on suspect…
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_91db5db4-1b74-11e0-ba23-001cc4c002e0.html
When I read Jared’s ramblings the first thing that came to mind was an experience I had a few years ago. A friend of mine suffers from schizophrenia. One day he left home and didn’t come back. He had stopped taking his medication. Next thing he was sending letters to his employer in the same incoherent rambling style of this kids. Once we found him and got him help he was ok.
It will be very sad if we find out that people died because a person with an undiagnosed mental illness had such free access to firearms.
The other thing that really bothers me is how in the wake of such a tragedy people at both ends of the political spectrum are so quick to jump in and try to score points.
However I do wish that the political commentators would tone things down a bit as you never know what will trigger a mentally unstable person to do something like this.
I agree. But over at Glenn Beck’s site, where they are fine-tuning their talking points, they are, while primarily occupied with the fact that Jane Fonda spelled Glenn “Glen” on twitter, pointing out just how Hitlerian it is for the ‘left’ to be looking at the Sarah Palin map…Then why is the map scrubbed?! If it is not a problem, why is it scrubbed?!
This is a terrible post. Hardly any facts are in and you’re already writing this off as mental illness. The authorities have just said that it’s likely this man did not act alone. The authorities have also alluded to the hate radio and hate tv, meaning beck, o’reilly, et al …
So, it’s nice that you’ve already decided what caused this, and that it was mental illness. The rest of us in the reality-based community are listening to the facts. And the facts so far are alluding to a right wing nut that was influenced by hate radio. If you want to write that off and essentially let the Palins and Becks immediately off the hook, go write on the Fox News blog.
Right there in the first graf:
One diagnosis that keeps arising is schizophrenia. It’s worth looking into what that might mean.
Read the post.
conscience (“conscience dreams”),
Sounds like a therapy term if so who was treating him for what? What school of mental health uses terms like that in connection with schizophrenia?
Thanks for a restrained essay, devoid of the media’s typical grand and unreserved assumptions.
Nicely said. The media’s jumbled references are far less clear and their implied conclusions far less restrained than Dr. Kaye’s. I agree, read the post.
The sheriff clearly said the man is mentally unstable, he also clearly said that Gifford’s was the target.
Paragraph 3 suggests to me that a diagnosis is not being made. The words “one can make some initial impressionistic comments based upon the video content he posted on YouTube.” are specifically stated. And even if a diagnosis of some mental illness were being made, this still does not preclude the destructive effect that marinating in talk radio and FoxPac 24 hours / day will have on a sane person, let along someone who is unbalanced. Bottom line: The story is still unfolding and it will take days, weeks, maybe even months to sort it all out. That’s just how this stuff works…
The sheriff clearly said the man is mentally unstable, he also clearly said that Giffords was the target.
“And then there is the already notorious target map put out by Sarah Palin.”
My post on that notorious page’s extinction today:
http://progressivealaska.blogspot.com/2011/01/saradise-lost-book-5-chapter-13-rep.html
“I would caution against implying any politics to someone who appears so disturbed…”
HIS politics are not the issue. There are thousands — no tens of thousands — of people like him across the country who ARE political. And they are ARMED.
The Palins of the world are responsible for inciting them to commit acts of violence. Period.
That’s the story here. The rest is bullshit.
woops, sorry for double post.
Undoubtedly, the right is scared that this alleged murderer might have ties to its most fervent supporters, at least in his own mind, and is already crafting its defenses to claims that the rhetoric it freely uses is not what it really wants its supporters to go out and do.
Good link.
Yep. Glad you make this point.
Did we read the same post?
No doubt about that. I can already hear Beck walking back his daily hate speech.
Of course that is a part of the post that has no citation so we don’t know who Jeff Kaye is talking about when he says that the “diagnosis keeps arising.’
But while I see the argument about the strange nature of his videos the one that Kaye refers to does end up with a critique of federal laws, federal currency, etc. These are very similar to tea party positions and she was a big target of the Tea Party this year (leaving aside Sarah Palin’s targeting).
ET I thought I saw on the net that Bristol bought a house paid for in cash in AZ? Does Sarah have real strong network there?
Usually when someone is physically or verbally attacked by someone on the Left, it’s a pie in the face, or really good satire. The right just comes violently unglued. Yet the mainstream media paints these as moral equivalents until someone gets hurt. Then starts the wringing of the hands.
He also said they were looking for a 2nd person, white male 50′s. He said the political rhetoric and “vitriol” is partially to be blamed. He said “talk radio”. He also said of AZ, “Mecca of Bigotry”. He has received many death threats for being against 1070. He has been our sheriff for 30 years. Everyone should watch that press conference. Find the utube. The whole nation needs to hear what that man said and he should have been put on national TV this last year to help tone down the rhetoric. That is the voice and leader we have needed through the last two years in AZ and this nation. And Jan Brewer has the nerve to almost shed a tear. She should have been shedding tears in front of the camera today for not having said what the sheriff said to help stop this before it happened.
Gabriele. You make good points about the scarcity of outpatient treatment in our communities. My response to hypotheses about his mental illnesses is as follows: One of the biggest barriers to inclusion of those with mental illness in our society is our fear of the irrational and our fear that these individuals are violent or that they will harm us in some way. Whenever someone who is ill commits an act of violence, my heart sinks as I despair for the future of the other 95% of the mentally ill who are nonviolent. I am sure that this incident will fuel discrimination against the mentally ill and make inclusion, treatment, and communication more difficult for them.
Practically everything spewing out of AM talk radio is mind control propaganda?
Were the youtubes really his ideas?
His “favorite” was in October, and the three he posted “himself” were all in the last 4 weeks. I wonder – were they really his ideas? Could his middle name be Patsy? Or Oswald?
….
Note: Speculation with no foundation. Just free associating here…
It almost seems interesting that one of the books he listed as having read, was “Through the Looking Glass”. Apparently he went through it this morning.
It’s a tragedy that he had access to automatic weapons as his journey began.
Sorry, I was replying to “bgrothus”. Thought I hit reply.
His politics are lies and hate its the GOPers who can’t win arguments with us on the facts. Its the GOPers who have to use negative emotion to get votes. 24/7 talking heads on the tv, radio, net spewing Negative emotions, lies hate its no wonder crazy stupid people shoot at us.
Now when is Obama going to get a spine and do something like issue FCC fines against hate tv, radio etc? Howard Stern got finned more than these jerks do.
He said he is in his 70s. Good man, love him.
Great post. This pretty much sums up every thought I’ve had on this.
Honestly, I’m quite surprised it took this long for something like this to happen given our political climate.
Ah, the “Dog Whistle Defense”… i.e. “you couldn’t really hear it, it really wasn’t said”.
Takes me back to Philadelphia, Mississippi and St. Ronnie.
A thread back, it was mentioned that a doctor in the crowd saw Gifford being shot in the head first. If that’s not proof of intent, I don’t know what is.
Bristol bought a house in AZ in the last few weeks, it was reported in our newspaper. If you believe that. But I think it is true, it was in the range of $175K, IIRC.
I respectfully disagree and believe that you may be missing the point of this informative post.
“That is the voice and leader we have needed through the last two years in AZ and this nation.”
Amen. If we only had a person that courageous in the WH. This was caused by the vitriol that has been spewing out of assholes like Rush Limbaugh. Repeat: It doesn’t make any difference if this guy is “insane.” There are tens of thousands like him.
This is a teaching moment. As progressives, let’s not fuck it up.
Stop! The probability that this man is crazy doesn’t let the right wing talkers off the hook. It’s no more relevant to the right wingers culpability than is Mr. Loughner’s politics, if any. Truly we can agree he probably wouldn’t have acted if he wasn’t deeply ill but it’s also likely that he wouldn’t have acted in the manner he did if he hadn’t been exposed to that kind of venomous rhetoric.
Tragedy that could have been avoided if we had not changed our law here to concealed, no permit. The State of AZ changed that right before 1070 passed. The sheriff said the young man had a clear record of threats.
Any bets he really read those books? President Bush claimed he beat Karl Rove in a reading contest.
Well said.
I don’t think Mr. Kaye is excusing the right wing talking heads. Not at all.
I agree. I listen to the Rush stuff when I’m on the road just to hear what he is spouting that day. If I were not a Dem and somewhat sane it would cause me to go mad.
This has to be talked about openly and in the media. We have to stop this or nobody will be safe.
Indeed. And the second suspect they are looking for could have very well took advantage of the young man’s mental condition for his own political agenda.
Thank you.
I understand and agree with your sentiment. I have great respect for Jeff — and know what he means — but whether or not this guy is schizophrenic is not the issue, for christ’s sake.
Thank you, Jeff, for this reasoned, and as EOH says, “restrained”, speculation. As you said to Crane Station, until there is clear evidence that Jared was “directed”, explicitly, to allegedly engage in this murderous behavior, it is much wiser to consider that the “background noise” of hate, fear-mongering, and word-bending allowed this young man to cross the line into insanity.
Unfortunately, the political class is, apparently, afforded the dubious “privilege” of saying “things” and implying “things” that cross the line of civility into a realm not much removed from full-blown sociopathic behavior.
Your comments about those who would happily assassinate Assange and your recent post regarding those who are “spiritually” lacking the proper (and appropriate) attitude towards government-sponsored torture and terrorism are accurate reflections of the “political climate” of our most interesting times.
DW
DW
Seconded the Right Wing media must pay 6 dead a 9 year old girl Sarah had the Congresswoman on her hit list.
Who knows how many other GOPers targeted her?
The Righties can argue random event and much like joe the plumber meeting Obama *cough* randomly we can laugh at them.
Any advertisers on GOP radio should face a boycott just like we have on Glenn Becks show. Anyone who donates cash to Sarah should be boycotted.
“A considerable amount of credible circumstantial evidence suggests that Theodore Kaczynski, also known as the Unabomber, participated in CIA-sponsored MKULTRA experiments conducted at Harvard University from the fall of 1959 through the spring of 1962.[50] During World War II, Henry Murray, the lead researcher in the Harvard experiments, served with the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), which was a forerunner of the CIA. Murray applied for a grant funded by the United States Navy, and his Harvard stress experiments strongly resembled those run by the OSS.[50] Beginning at the age of sixteen, Kaczynski participated along with twenty-one other undergraduate students in the Harvard experiments, which have been described as “disturbing” and “ethically indefensible.”
–Wikipedia.
What is even more scary is that there may be another actor who is still out there. Let’s hope there are no copycats egged on by this.
Considering that Law Enforcement are searching for TWO more persons of interest in this, it could be a possibility that this guy was manipulated or at least working in concert with two others working towards the same goal today. Given what we know about his politics and his desire to latch onto the gold standard, it very well could be associated with a fringe libertarian type movement, a la Alex Jones type of people. Given all that is said across the media spectrum, being exposed to this type of rhetoric could very well trigger adherents with mental illness (and some without) to take this kind of action.
I think this is the point of exkiodexian’s post above.
This had a political message because the person was a politician.. a representative of the government… a person who is responsible for “the way things are”. He could have targeted the shoppers on the check out lines in the super market. He chose a politician.
The message is:
guns are too easy to obtain – automatic hand guns which are very easy to conceal.
desperate people (mentally disturbed or politically disturbed or both) will often act out BECAUSE they can an “accomplish” something in their lives – 15 minutes of fame.
hate speech is clearly part of the American conversation since one of our VP candidates uses it, publishes it and encourages such things
America is a violent nation, inhabited by sadists who are allowed to practice their violence… many are paid to do this and considered heroes because they can kill with no qualms.
Our largest expenditures and industries are killing, wars and weapons – THAT SAYS IT ALL.
What happened today in Tuscon is enormously tragic. What is also tragic is that this event overshadows an equally significant event, the release yesterday of a Guardian story with very grave implications. The event today guarantees that it will get no play in the US media.
How the US let al-Qaida get its hands on an Iraqi weapons factory
holy shitte
i did not know that…………..wow
There was a full professor whose name I can’t recall, who recently actually advocated the assassination of Assange. We have cross the line as a society when such speech is not only spoken, but published.
exkiodexian Please read my post a little more carefully if your comments are directed at me.
I said “It will be very sad IF we find out that people died because a person with an undiagnosed mental illness had such free access to firearms. Emphasis on IF
I’m simply stating my personal experience with schizophrenia.
Personally I despise the right wing lunatics you mention who are now trying to say he was a left winger because among many other books he lists the Communist Manifesto as a favorite.
Too many people on both sides are jumping to conclusions. My first reaction was to think it was a “Right to lifer” as she was pro choice and we know the track record of some of the anti abortion zealots shooting doctors and blowing up clinics. Now it looks like my first impression was wrong.
Also read the last sentence of my post. Who do you think I was talking about?
I don’t think Jeff is excusing the right wing hate talkers. The state of this gay’s mind is irrelevant when assigning responsibility to them, just like Loughner’s politics if he has any. A sane man wouldn’t do this, no matter what talkers he listened to but a crazy man might just need a push from somebody like Limbaugh and Beck.
sadly yes
“guy’s mind” that is.
it was a repo. Nice subdivision full of empty houses in a failing community.
Of more concern than copycats are the unknown players behind this tragedy who will get off scott-free and never discovered. Guaranteed huge walls protecting them have already been erected.
And most assassins were programmed by Intel – CIA and FBI
JFK
RFK
MLK
JFKjr
John Lennon
Paul Welstone
Malcom X
Any charismatic person who might challenge the status quo and seems to be gaining public support (too much) is taken out. This keeps people inside of very narrow boundaries.
I think it is too but my comment was directed at the thread in general. the world isn’t black and white. Neither politics or state of mind or even a combination of both in any way exculpate the right wing talkers guilt. They poisoned the atmosphere. I didn’t see anywhere in Jeff’s post where he says that his state of mind excuses the hate merchants.
How long before the state of AZ releases this guys medical records assuming he is crazy?
All one has to do is start posting and airing comments from the radio host in Tucson named Garrett Lewis and some of his commenters. The man has been spewing hate hard for the last couple of years, and especially around the elections regarding the whole “target” Giffords and Grijalva to loose the elections rhetoric. People will get a real clear picture of just what talk show radio host the Sheriff was talking about and how bad it has been here. Tucson has been one of the only half-way liberal pockets left in AZ and they hate us “commies” as they call us.
No one forcing you to stay here if, despite caveats to the contrary, you prefer to regard speculation as advocation. If you prefer to wait for the evidence to come in, which is perfectly reasonable, you’d be advised to stay offline for a couple of weeks or months.
The entire Reich wing IMO suffers from LED ( Lack of Empathy Disorder) and it allows them to free their more murderous impulses with conscienceless abandon.
The real sadist is not the 22-year old Jared. It is the person(s) behind the curtain who guided him to the events of today. Their motive is more sinister than the killing of a few individuals.
I personally don’t give a rat’s ass if the stupid gunman had a mental illness or not. He broke the law, he shot, he murdered. HE MURDERED A CHILD. And for this he deserves to die. And let the Tea Party and all of it’s ilk notice this.
he needs to die for what he has done. End of story. No mercy, no treatment. Electric Chair or lethal injection. And put Sarah Palin and her stupid ilk in the front row to watch their henchman die.
Edward Teller,
Thank you for the reference.
I have looked at that crosshairs map a number of times today and when reading the comments about the map you referenced, I could not help but ask the question myself about whether there will be a backlash against Sarah on the crosshairs and why it was scrubbed today.
My hope is that this will put her on the spot to explain the scrubbing, and will in the end, demolish her popularity once and for all which I could not understand in the first place.
Oh, and I do not want to forget, thank you John McCain, for foisting her on us in the first place.
What are the odds of this young man “commiting suicide” before he ever makes it to trial? Politicians have turned everyone into cynics. This young man will not be tried, or if he is, will mysteriously be killed or commit suicide in jail. Something about this smells really really bad.
I agree. Jeff’s post is well done and extremely informational. But I understand exkiodexian’s frustration.
As I said in an earlier thread, the wingnuts are going to have a hard time spinning the murder of a child.
Tucson Tea Party Leader: We Won’t Change Our Rhetoric After Giffords Shooting
A leader of a Tucson-area tea party group condemned the mass shooting in Arizona that included Rep. Gabriel Giffords (D-AZ), but told TPM that this doesn’t mean her group is going to tone down their rhetoric: “I think anytime you start suppressing freedom of speech, I think it’s wrong. I live here and I didn’t hear anything that concerned me in terms of inciting violence.”
Jeff isn’t saying that schizophrenia excuses the right wing hate merchants, unless there is a whole other post I can’t find. All he is saying is that it there are much more likely candidates to be controlled as part of some organized conspiracy or other and that schizophrenic people, by nature, aren’t political ideologues in the conventional sense. If someone else is reading something other than that, can I get a link please?
After listening to the sheriff’s press conference, it seems to me like there will be blame on this second suspect, perhaps as the mind behind it.
Or forever, as it is unlikely that the full truth will ever emerge from this political assassination, as has happened with all prior ones.
And if he acted out of physical disability, presumably you’d recommend death penalty too.
I hope he stays alive so that the right wing will get it rightful share of publicity re this. I want all their ugly thoughts on the front page of every paper.
Get us quotes and who s the parent company of his radio station its time to boycott their advertisers.
Suicide by gunshot to the back of the head, or polonium, or drone attack.
Btw, Jeff. This is a very good and well reasoned post. Thank you for it.
You mention in your third last paragraph that “these concerns are more about such an individuals anxieties and paranoia about being controlled from without, about things outside himself threatening to invade his personal world. Concern with brainwashing is a common thread in narratives from schizophrenic individuals.”
I’ve known coke and meth heads who were certain they had people living inside their mirrors, tv’s sending them messages, and voices coming out of the sky. All of which to them were “real”, and telling them to do things. Some of which they acted on, or tried to…
Mental illness has concrete causes sometimes.
Well I don’t. I think exkiodexian is reading something that isn’t there. Unless I’m not reading the right post, I don’t see where Jeff is “essentially let(ting) the Palins and Becks immediately off the hook…” I don’t see that anywhere in the post. At all.
Garrett Lewis, KNST radio. It is the same station that plays Rush, Beck, and Hannity daily.
They reported that his magazine — is that the right term? — was not empty. I assume he was going to kill himself at the scene, had he not been restrained by bystanders.
I think anytime you start suppressing freedom of speech, I think it’s wrong. I live here and I didn’t hear anything that concerned me in terms of inciting violence.”
We are so going to hang him for that statement we need a picture of him and a picture of the 9 year old girl. Then we need a picture of that minuteman chick who shot the Mexican girl and a picture of the Mexican girl. Maybe David at Crooks and Liars can think of more GOP child killings.
We can win this one with faces, children’s faces.
What do you suppose is the cause of all this mental illness?
I guess that tea bagger forgot that Giffords had the right to free speech, too.
I see all the resident conspiracy theorists are out, inventing some new ones (or resurrecting old ones) for the guy to have joined.
Isn’t it enough that he’s probably mentally ill?
No.
OT:
Margaret, if you have the time please take a look at my diary. I’m doing something a little different and hope it will create a nice change for us.
http://my.firedoglake.com/peasantparty/2011/01/08/saturday-art-sitting-on-it/
And shooting a congressperson isn’t trying to suppress free speech?
(If he thinks there hasn’t been any inciting to violence in his area, he must have some problems of his own.)
Something that I think ought to have gotten a lot more publicity than it did … “Sapolsky on Religion” especially concerning the events of today
http://www.blip.tv/file/2204956
Probably? I think he is seriously ill. Conspiracy? Why go after a politician at a political rally if it was not concocted by hate speech?
I think we’re all on the same page here. Jeff’s points are well taken. Some are fearful that a finding of insanity will let the right wing assholes off the hook. I think we all understand, however, that that’s not Jeff’s intention.
sadlyyes,
There you go, it will be the “freedom of speech” argument that we will be hearing from the right wing.
This woman could not even keep her mouth shut for 24 hours after the terrible tragedy before she starts spouting her tea party blather.
Funny, what I was noticing is that all the resident deranged lone nut theorists are out.
Beg to disagree. If there are others who were responsible for instigating this, he needs to remain alive until all the other parties are identified. Having him put to death with his secrets dying with him would greatly please the others who had a hand in this.
To repeat myself:
I’d bet that most Americans would claim that my “interpretation of political symbols and phrases are interpreted in a highly idiosyncratic and irrational way.” Should my views be disregarded (considered irrelevant) because of this possible consensus? Perhaps. Yet, I also have the institutional- and self-education needed to rationally support my interpretations and explanations, and sometimes do support them in a ‘reasonable manner.’ I also have a politics that I consider reasonable — defensible and coherent. But my politics is abnormal. (Perhaps I’m a deluded narcissist.) That said, if Jared Loughner differs from me, I would imagine the difference can be found in my lack of a propensity to engage in political violence and in the comparatively greater coherence I muster when I think and communicate about political matters. I might be sane, and thus normal, but my politics are not. But normality in America is not all that it’s cracked up to be, especially normal politics as they can be found in Washington, DC and elsewhere.
Oh, I am a shy, type of person, terms also attributed to Mr. Loughner.
Mr. Loughner’s politics may have been self-directed and not especially intelligible to others in general or even to others with special expertise. But he had a politics, his murderous act had political significance and he likely meant it to have political significance. I’d say his was a political assassination attempt however bizarre his motivations may seem to the rest of us. Unlike Mr. Kaye, I believe we should take care to retain the political significance rightly attributable to Mr. Loughner’s act has while, like Mr. Kaye, avoiding the drawing of unwarranted conclusions about the event, the individuals involved in the event and the behavior of some of our political notables. A politics need not be coherent, rational or overly humane to be a politics. Observing America’s reactionaries ought to make that clear.
I’m not qualified to say. Nor is it in any way relevant. Not to the post, not to my comment. I said that Jeff Kaye’s post didn’t excuse the hate merchants and it does not. Period.
Bingo. Unless is can be drugged out of his mind while he is in detention, he will never come to trial.
maybe muppets singing sappy songs isn’t so bad after all…it’s been a long afternoon/evening. none of this will be resolved tonight.
imo,NO
how convenient the lone nutter gunman
I knew this day would come sooner or later. Let me tell you: All this stuff: Tea-Party, “socialism”, government hatred, etc etc., it all basically comes back to the same thing. Racism. This Arizona representative, being of the same party as the absolutely despised President Obama, became a casualty. These tea party folks and hard right republicans are a very violent bunch. Being an elected official, I know this and I always keep one eye on these people when I know I’m in their presense.
I’m skeptical about schizophrenia because so many people demonstrate schizophrenic symptoms (most people actually): when people pray to a god, talk to voices of ‘the supernatural’ they demonstrate schizophrenia, but because lots of people have the same delusion it isn’t called illness by many. Yet, when someone talks to a voice & believes something just as void as evidence as any particular religion, if they’re alone with that baseless belief, they get labled ill… that isn’t fair. Loughner seems to simply be confused; he’s been misinformed & is stupid and/or foolish. Maybe the average Conservative has a brain disorder, an illness called schizophrenia, maybe the average human is schizophrenic because they believe in some god, but it seems this mass murder in question is the product of delusion… not brain disease. Just a hunch, maybe the guy has a disease, but in the sense way that people who pray to a god are diseased.
No, apparently we are all not. To quote exkiodexian:
Now it sounds to me like s/he is pretty unclear about what Jeff said. Either that or I’m not reading the same post.
Jane Hamsher is upstairs…
Second Suspect Sought in Connection with Giffords Shooting Incident, White Male in His 50s
It’s genetic. The type of illness Jared shows symptoms typically manifests itself in young adults. The illness envelopes them with dramatic swiftness, leaving family and friends perplexed about how to help. The prognosis for recovery are slim to none.
Gore Vidal…
he tried to SILENCE (permanently) a representative OF THE people
I like it! :)
Not necessarily deranged, but certainly working from an agenda.
Which goes to my point above. If this slaughter were done out of physical infirmity, would the condemnation have been similar? Or a returning soldier with traumatic brain injury.
The caption on the ‘cross-hairs’ page: “We’ve diagnosed the problem…Help us prescribe the solution.” Fishing for the answer from the Nazis concentration camp doctors,that the cure is a single pill.
No, he doesn’t deserve to be murdered. He deserves to be locked away forever & to be offered help; murder is only called for as a defence tactic & even then it is immoral.
Watching foodnetwork on TV. Provides a useful diversion when we don’t know very much about Tucson shootings.
It’s true US media is deeply lame: NPR didn’t mention Giffords being on Palin’s target list with the cross-hairs OR Angle’s call for murder of Democrats… it reported a general heated rhetoric with the deeply false implication that hate speech is happening everywhere. The hate speech & false conspiracy has become more mainstream amongst Republicans & social Conservatives though since 2008… NPR is afraid of reporting the truth because the truth seems to ‘have a Liberal bias’.
Yes, that is true with NPR: it’s afraid of losing Republican funding & support so it doesn’t tell the whole truth. Plus, Republicans work there & would hate for their philosophy to get exposed as bad so we hear these nonsense terms like ‘heated rhetoric’ instead of the more accurate ‘Republican hate speech, false conspiracy theories & calls for murder of Democrats’.
I’ve about had it with the Fox News types. Had people not been killed, they would be saying the gunman was just exercising his “rights” according to the 2nd amendment. But, when blood is spilled, they wail and wail about how horrible it all is. All this hand-wringing on their part is total bs. All this channel does, 24/7, is tear down the president in basically every single story. Everything is slanted. The placement of stories is clearly structured to destroy every single democrat in sight. Let a republican do something wrong, and it is given a cursory mention, and QUICKLY buried. Even down to the intonation in the voice of the presenters clearly has an agenda to destroy the president, everything he has done (which is alot), and destroy everyone associated with him. Have a democrat and a republican on their air. The republican is given the kid glove treatment, with very softball questions. One semi-tough question is thrown in to cover Fox’s you know what. The democrat gets absolutely hammered from the first sentence, and it goes downhill from there.
I guarentee you that deep down, Fox executives are saddened, not by this horrible event, but that the flashy graphics they already had in the can proclaiming “Showdown on the JOB KILLING Obamacare,” will have to be shelved, at least for a week. I wonder if the GOP consulted with Fox on the “rebranding” of the push to repeal the healthcare bill. I bet they did.
Marion Milner wrote an interesting book — all of her books are interesting — entitle “On the Suppressed Madness of Sane Men” which addresses the madness that can be found within each of us.
A link to the book: http://tinyurl.com/2v8hzsn
Still, whereas most religiously inclined individuals believe what atheists consider nonsense, they are not alone in their beliefs. It is the shared sense of reality — that is, a functioning human community — that keeps the worst symptoms of mental disease at bay for most who live within that community. A modern, scientifically informed sense of the real is rare in human history. Given this rather obvious fact, it follows that nearly every human being that has ever existed can be considered mentally ill in some sense of that term. But this belief is counter-intuitive. It is more sensible to believe that the term mentally ill is applicable to those who suffer greatly and psychically from being alive or who do not suffer at all from being alive.
Thanks, Margaret, indeed I’m not.
To quote myself from the post:
From an essay by Ted Kaczynski’s brother, David:
I have personal experience, and even testified in the death penalty phase, of a client who was in a folie a trois with two other people, and they killed three people in the SF Bay Area. It was a big story in the paper. I knew this client from my days at Kaiser, and he was a bipolar (probably) individual who was also sociopathic, and hyped up on meth or other drugs.
I learned painfully and at first hand how in a limited number of cases insane people can come together to commit a horrendous crime. I don’t know if that’s the case in this shooting, but the fact there was more than one person involved (if true) doesn’t mean that mental illness isn’t the primary factor here. The background factor — which is still crucial to this story — is the hate speech from the right, as I and others have pointed out. This is not letting people off the hook, but only stating what the state of our knowledge about this appears to point to at this point. Future developments may change that picture.
The truth is no one knows with any scientific certainty what causes such mental illness. The theories run from the genetic to the environmental to the interpersonal to a theory that says there is no “mental illness,” but the latter is simply an ideological way to label social deviancy.
I stay agnostic and open to it. My professional life is partly an ongoing study by clinical means of the effects of living upon human beings in all its manifestations.
exkiodexian appears to be invested in making Loughner into a “right wing nut”, which would really be a stake through the heart of the Tea Party crowd if it were true. But it is my sense that the likely (not proven) state of his illness means his politics were too scrambled to give any label.
The issue of right-wing violent talk and spewing of hate is very real, and IS part of this story, but what place it will take in this story exactly is not yet determined. If there were any more of a conspiracy by right-wingers on this, supposedly directing this young man, then we will see, but given his instability, as I said, it’s unlikely anyone would choose such an individual to rely upon.
I said “interpretation of political symbols and phrases are interpreted in a highly idiosyncratic and irrational way” and you claim that your politics could be conceived in the same way. Well, someone saying that doesn’t make it true. You write, “A politics need not be coherent, rational or overly humane to be a politics.” That is certainly true, and the history of fascism makes that point. While it is a matter of opinion at what point delusions and madness cross the line into something that can recognizably be called politics, I think you’d agree that much of what Mr. Loughner wrote is unintelligible to anyone. He may have a politics, of an autistic sort, as I said, meaning “highly idiosyncratic”, and I mean highly, i.e., it can be only understood by the individual themselves, and is not communicable with others.
Crazy anti-Semitism or genocidal politics aimed at Muslims, Tsutsis or anyone else can be understood by others, but are highly irrational and reprehensible, if not mad in their own way, but they are not autistic, i.e., not understandable only to the individual himself.
I think that there is another issue here with Kaczynski that should be taken into account with all of this speculation. If I remember correctly, Kaczynski did not want an insanity defense–he wanted the trial to focus on the politics of what he did. In that case the insanity defense however well-meaning meant that he was not allowed to put forward the defense that he wanted to and to actually stick up for what he thought were his politics. While I don’t know about the case here, we shouldn’t forget that sometimes a mental health interpretation is a way of taking away the actual politics of what someone does. However odious this may have been a conscious act of political violence. Diagnosing him domesticates that.
Here’s example of Mr. Loughner’s thinking, taken from one of his videos, which is circular, syntactically intact, but with extremely opaque meaning, and a kind of glossalia (repeating oneself). The language implies something very profound, which only the thinker understands:
This is not right-wing financial ideology, which some have claimed, but gibberish.
I wonder if Gov Jan Brewer has also decreased funding to Arizona’s AHCCS (sp?) Medicaid program for mental health.
Literal death panels exist in AZ under Brewer.
This is a reason the words ‘A well regulated Militia,…’ mean something. So when a loony wants to buy a high powered rifle there is somebody there to stop him.
Right-wing financial ideology IS gibberish…
I have privately considered the possibility of the involvement of drugs, particularly meth, but that’s very speculative at this point, so I left it out of my article.
Conscious dreaming is usually known as “lucid dreaming”- it is a state in which one is dreaming but self-aware. Schizophrenics may be more prone to this than others, but it is not particularly associated with any mental disorder. In fact Stephen LaBerge has written several books on lucid dreaming, one of which is under my bed (:-)) and has advocated it as a solution to any number of life’s problems by controlling these lucid dream states. There is a drug, known as galantamine, that can induce these states artificially- the drug has FDA approval for Alzheimer’s disease (anti-dementia). It is interesting, but unfortunately
Conscience dreaming may be a pun on that, but there is no school of mental health that i know if that uses that term. It sounds more like a cult/religious term.
Individual vs Population Health
I don’t think that you can diagnose CPS from political web postings these days, because frankly paranoid ideas are widely accepted as mainstream on the Right.
I looked through Loughner’s material, and found throughout that while I could not relate every single filigree and extension of his concerns to memes that are widespread in the current wingnutosphere, we are never far from general themes and thought patterns of the Constitution in Exile folks. They feel that we live, have lived for generations in this country, under the heel of a vast conspiracy of liberals who have systematically deprived us of key elements of our Constitution, while pretending that everything is fine, and the Constitution is still in force. These people appeal to systematic mind control and brainwashing to explain how most people can remain insensitive to this gross and palpable reversal of every value this country stands for.
His two main specific instances of the workings of this conspiracy, the police and “currency”, are concerns he shares with fellow radical rightwingers. Admittedly, he carries both concerns in directions that seem odd compared to the “mainstream” of these radicals. In the case of the police, for example, he ends up honing in on the Pima Community College Police, which seems to be straying off-message from any practical political speculation. But he starts with the idea that this illegitimacy of this particular police force is rooted in the unconstitutionality of federal polce forces, a recognizable tenet of the Posse Comitatus people. Likewise, he seems to go off on a very personal tangent at the end with his ocncerns over “currency”, but he again starts in Ron Paul territory.
None dare call Ron Paul crazy. Well, not anymore. And no one has ever really thought he was crazy in the clinical sense. When we used to think of him as crazy, it was in the sense of someone who believes things that are both strange and far from the mainstream, therefore impractical and self-defeating to harp on. But, you know, the idea that currency not based on gold is unsonctitutional, some sort of conspiracy, is frankly paranoid. As paranoid as any delusion I have heard from individual patients at their level of private concerns.
What we are up against is that, at the population level, paranoid thinking does not require a thought disorder. It’s part of the range of thought processes that we have always accepted as normal. You can think of Hofstadter’s The Paranoid Style in American politics. Or consider the idea, current in many past eras, that there are witches out there plotting evil things against Christian, God-fearing folk, things which they have supernatural power to achieve. This idea was always quite mad, yet once it had whole communities in its grip. In fact, where I come from (South Louisiana), that is still quite common as the leading content of delusional systems in CPS patients, that the people conspiring against them are witches. When many people believed this self-same mad ideational content, and acted to the point of mass murder as these beliefs dictated, clearly they did not all suffer, as individuals, from CPS. Yet, en masse, as a group, societies have believed things, then acted on beliefs, that only people with clear thought disorders would believe and act on when the exact same ideational content was not in general currency.
It is easy to understand how the affective disorders might have arisen. Grief and guilt play an understandably useful role in a society of thinking and reasoning animals. Within our closest social groups, we would kill each other too readily, because we can calculate an improvement in our material circumstances from such murders, were there not a terrible price in guilt and grief to pay when those close to us die. If we imagine that the biochemical mechanism that creates this normal and healthy grief and guilt could become deranged and overproduce guilt and despair beyond sufficient reason, then you have an explanation for Major Depression.
But where would thought disorders come from? What useful mechanism would they represent a derangement of, as Depression is a derangement of the grief mechanism? How could disordered reasoning processes ever be useful, have any of the survival advantages that alone could see them propagated to future generations?
I think that the only explanation that makes sense is that the thought disorders represent a derangement of delusional, paranoid thinking that whole societies find useful when faced with an external enemy. It can be useful for individuals to stop thinking rationally, and stop projecting humanity, when there is a deadly enemy directly at hand. The normal human feelings that are so important for individuals to have towards members of their own in-group, or society would collapse in a Hobbesian struggle of all against all, would fatally hinder swift and effective violence against the persons of the attacking out-group, were there not some mechanism to produce depersonalization of the enemy, and dissociation from one’s own actions in the course of inhuman treatment of these enemies.
Presumably, the defect in people with CPS is that they have this depersonalizing, derealizing mechanism invoked without the higher threshold and presence of reasonably triggering threat events that are required to invoke it in “normal” people.
And then, on the population level, we can see instances in which the triggers are faked by unscrupulous manipulators, hyped up so that even people without CPS are whipped into a fury directed against some imagined internal enemy, and we get witch hunts.
My point about Loughner, is that I can’t see how you decide simply from his web writings whether he has the individual level disease of CPS, or is one of the victims of the current wave of population level mass hysteria and paranoia being whipped up by the manipulators of our age. In either case, the expression of thought will show derangements indistinguishable at the level of abstractions, such as the legitimacy of the police power and of our currency.
To see if Loughner has CPS, we have to wait on reports about other aspects of his behavior than his political expressions (on his website) and actions (the shootings). Only if the derangements were global should we give him the dx of CPS.
We already know that the US has the disorder on the population level. Ron Paul is no longer thought of as just some crazy nut. Sarah Palin is spoken of as a viable presidential candidate. The idea that the US is in danger of having Sharia Law imposed on it, or that there is an Azatlan that is about to be restored, are no longer well out of the mainstream.
To paraphrase Pogo, we have met the Chronic Paranoid Schizophrenic, and he is us, or US. Whatever.
In the AP story from Jan 8 we have the following which indicates something about his behavior: 1) self-control problems in addition to incoherence [if these are generated by auditory hallucinations that would strongly suggest Schizo.] 2) some drug use (self-medication?)
—-
High school classmate Grant Wiens, 22, said Loughner seemed to be “floating through life” and “doing his own thing.”
“Sometimes religion was brought up or drugs. He smoked pot, I don’t know how regularly. And he wasn’t too keen on religion, from what I could tell,” Wiens said.
Lynda Sorenson said she took a math class with Loughner last summer at Pima Community College’s Northwest campus and told the Arizona Daily Star he was “obviously very disturbed.”"He disrupted class frequently with nonsensical outbursts,” she said.
In October 2007, Loughner was cited in Pima County for possession of drug paraphernalia, which was dismissed after he completed a diversion program, according to online records.”
—
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/01/08/national/w111222S57.DTL&tsp=1 (sorry – don’t know how to embed links in comments yet)
But this is a very selective quotation. Later on he goes on about the necessity of alternative currencies (check the reports about the Virginia representative who wants the state to start issuing its own currency if you think this is not right-wing financial ideology), insists we don’t have to listen to “federalist” laws (granted he should have said federal) and then moves onto not trusting God which is, given the previous stuff on currencies, clearly a comment on “in God we trust” on money. This may be all wrong but it shouldn’t just be dismissed as gibberish. While you may be right that he is simply ill I don’t think we should dismiss the possibility that within his political frame of reference he believed he was striking a blow for his liberty and that unfortunately he is not alone in thinking that. It doesn’t make this particular action a conspiracy. But it does make it terribly scary even beyond the horror of this incident. And that can get lost in the claim that he was simply disturbed.
None of these reports are terribly suggestive of CPS.
If smoking pot were indicative of CPS, we’ld have to put anti-psychotics in the water supply. I don’t think that even a serious pot-smoking problem even raises the probability of CPS even a bit.
Similarly, “floating through life”, and “doing your own thing”, don’t count as even mild indicators of a thought disorder.
We may be on to something with a description of “very disturbed” and “nonsensical outburts”, but a lot depends on what sort of disturbed and what sort of nonsense. Even if the content of the nonsense were paranoid (which can be a form of grandiosity), schizophrenics are not generally very publicly assertive about their delusions. So we would be talking about a manic phase, if we were talking about a disorder at all, which I don’t think we have much to go on from a geberal impression that he was disturbed, and engaged n classroom outbursts.
Now, to be fair, in something like this, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If this behavior (the shooting and the web ramblings) represent his first psychotic break, possible for his reported age, he may have seemed to even people quite close to him to have been quite normal and healthy until just a few weeks ago. There wouldn’t necessarily be anything for anyone who knew him to report until quite recently.
And even during such a psychotic break, most CPS sufferers would just be mostly withdrawn. They might even seem less weird or odd in their behavior to the casual observer than average, because they would not make much of an individual impression at all in their social withdrawal.
As a final barrier to anyone noticing anything, people close to him would tend to be under pressure to deny and/or misunderstand what they were perceiving in his behavior as the changes of a psychotic break unfolded. One of the advantages a clinician has is precisely in not knowing the patient, and therefore not having preconceptions and personal commitments to any version of who this person in front of them really might be.
Sure, we may get some evidence in the coming days that would indicate that Loughner had something like CPS, or perhaps bipolar disorder. But that would probably have to be either the disclosure that this wasn’t his first psychotic break, or his first manic episode, that he already carried a diagnosis, or the account of people who had close contact with him in the weeks before this happened yesterday. The random observations of two people who shared classes with him in college or HS, and a record of legal trouble over drug paraphenalia, wouldn’t really be expected to be revelatory, even if the guy was flagrantly psychotic.
he seems to be expressing, in what seem to be very distorted terms, populist ideas that have historically become most potent in times of panics and depressions. The fact that there is no populism other than right-wing populism makes it hard for most of us, literate in an entirely different kind of politics, to even understand the fact that these ideas have taken root in our culture.
In the quote which Dr. Kaye cites, for example, sense could be made out of it if one had the referents. If we knew who “the treasurer for a new money system” was (Ron Paul?), then in fact, we would be ‘literate.”
It is a fact that our society has a very impoverished view of literacy these days. This cultural impoverishment is making US “autistic,” as we lose the ability to understand what is happening to our country, and is creating the conditions for populist movements whose appeal is precisely that it makes no sense to us.
My point about his thinking, like that of other severely mentally ill with a thought disorder, which I suspect he has (possibly influenced as well by drugs), is that the symbols of the culture are appropriated and manipulated, but the content of those symbols have a very private meaning, i.e., are suffused with the potent anxieties that lie behind mental illness.
No individual can be considered as divorced from their culture, but it is straining at a gnat to find much sense really in what he talks about. The subject matter may have been drawn, in part, from right-wing ideology, and his targets may have been determined from the right-wing hate machine’s rhetoric, but the way he processed that material was not even remotely rational.
Take a look at his “Mind Controller” video.
This is disordered and delusional thought.
It is an extremely odd work. But it’s the soul of lucidity next to “Finnegans Wake” (well that’s sort of a joke, though Joyce did have a daughter with schizophrenia, and he himself may have been so creative because of a touch of the disease).
But watching it, I don’t know it’s purpose. Is it parodic? Satirical? It doesn’t seem tonally like a completely serious work.
For someone going through the hell of schizophrenia, that’s a well organized piece. If I pretended that i were watching that randomly on youtube, without knowing a thing about its creator, I think I would find it haunting, eerie.
But I don’t think I would think its creator crazy.
I think Kaczynski was a different case from this young man, and while he was likely mentally ill as well, the fact he was subject to strange experiments that harmed him, and the fact that his political philosophy was more coherent, marks him as a different case than this one, which appears to be a more classic case of schizophrenic breakdown in a young man.
Yes, when we say “politics” we mean “politics w/in the band of views deemed not crazy by consensus of the population.”
If that entails that your views are non-political craziness, that’s really your problem, not the definition’s problem.
He bought a gun. He was able to buy a gun. I don’t care how you figure his mental state, he put some money on the table, carried away a lethal weapon, and killed people with it. In broad daylight. In front of a Safeway. In Tucson, Arizona. And, it was a beautiful day. And, for what?
It’s the “little bit of money” thing that bothers me.
Do you have hard data on the different rate of attacks by people with paranoid schizophrenia? And this is not a rhetorical question.
I’m a Non-American, and I’m often quite shocked when I hear about the lack of health care, including mental health care, the poorest in American society receive. So I sympathize with the point you’re tying to make.
But sadly people with paranoid schizophrenia often don’t want treatment, because they’re quite distrustful of the health care system. And forced psychological treatment is not very effective.
Two examples from Germany: Ms Streidel, who 1990 stabbed then Chancellor-candidate Oskar Lafontaine in the neck, was several times in treatment for her paranoid schizophrenia after previous incidents (attempted suicide, attempted arson).
Likewise Mr Kaufmann, who also in 1990 shot then federal minister of the interior Wolfgang Schäuble in the back, he actually was in previous treatment during his incarceration for drug related offenses, because he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia in jail.
It may very well be that these type of incidents are more prevalent in the US because of the lack of accessible mental health care, but that point should be made with proper statistics.
Personal impressions are deceptive, because (naturally) foreign incidents have much less impact, both in the press and in the personal memory.
A note about diagnosis: Loughner’s Youtube postings are tangential, following a private logic undecipherable. Many of his ideas are of influence – mind control, grammar control, brainwashing. These qualities remind me of old writings about Schizophrenia – Victor Tausk, Kurt Schneider, and probably nail the Schizophrenia diagnosis as firmly as is possible from afar. Jared Loughner has a “Thought Disorder.” Unfortunately, the motives of the violent Schizophrenic under the sway of active psychotic thinking are personal rather than political, trying to destroy the source of their own torment.
Thanks for your thoughtful post, and measured conclusion:
“This is not the ramblings of a right-wing crackpot, which some have claimed Loughner to be, but gibberish. This doesn’t take away from the possibility Loughner reacted to right-wing propaganda, but quite likely out of madness, not political motivation, such as we understand such motivation.”
But the consensus opinion found among Americans affirms a politics that cannot adaptive well to the world as it is today, that politics being a compound made up of classical liberalism, Madisonian federalism, a ruthless imperialism, a ruthless capitalism and a religious culture that grew from the seeds planted by Calvin and his kind. I have no trouble claiming that American politics is crazy inasmuch as one can claim that a politics is crazy.
I’ll go with my gut sense on this one.
I suspect that at some point in the future we — i.e. the public at large — will generate enough information about Mr. Loughner and his revealed thoughts to make sense of what his politics was and how it could not cohere in an acceptable way. What all of these thoughts mean to Mr. Loughner cannot be known by anyone but Mr. Loughner. But that point also applies to anyone and therefore everyone.
Finally, I don’t believe I’m completely naive about individuals like Mr. Loughner. I’ve known individuals who experts would and maybe had identified as psychotic in some manner. I also lived in New York City during that time when society saw fit to warehouse some of its deranged citizens on the streets of Manhattan. The problem I have with the emerging consensus judgment of Mr. Loughner’s actions and self is 1) that this judgment will promote the idea that we ought to have psychologists and psychiatrist judge the politics of this or that individual based on their mental state; 2) that crazy individuals, and not movements, institutions, classes, elite fractions, etc., that endanger Americans; 3) that violence is a psychological predisposition and not a social artifact. Finally, I’m old enough to have been an enthusiastic reader of Winnicott, Laing, Goffman, Sartre, etc. — and have retained an appreciation of their work over the years. I thus feel very protective of the severely distressed, especially since I know that but for the grace of God go I.
+1
We are not going to fix murder with more killing.
I agree. I do believe Mr. Loughner’s ideas are scrutable to some degree and can be translated without doing them great violence into an acceptable and even scientific language.
Dr. Kaye’s point seems to be that psychotic anxiety makes Mr. Loughner’s thoughts nonsense. I disagree. His thoughts probably are not utter nonsense. That said, I would not be surprised to learn that Mr. Loughner was driven to kill Rep. Giffords and others by his psychotic anxieties.
If he is housed in an isolation cell, and I suspect he is, suicide is virtually impossible. Were he to be moved to population (unlikely) he could be attacked or killed, yes. I do not think there is any chance that this guy will be in population any time soon, if ever. BTW this is not my opinion. It is my experience. I’ve been incarcerated in isolation as well as in population.
oops, meant to reply to you. not used to the nested format. scroll down to get my comment on jail suicide likelihood.
scroll up? fuck it.
Another great post!
Whenever I hear psychologists or psychiatrists used terms such as “dissociation” of even “repression,” I ready myself for a good dose of psychobabble that is coming. In spite of being around for over a hundred years, these 19th century concepts have yet to achieve scientific validation. They are nothing more than reified psychoanalytic notions used as if there were real.
By contrast, delusional thinking is real and does occur in some mental patients diagnosed schizophrenic. But is delusional thinking what motivated this admittedly strange individual. Methinks that we will have to wait to hear from the experts on both sides of what looks like the basis of an insanity defense. Experts for the defense will claim what this psychologist claims, “paranoid schiophrenia,” while experts for the prosecution will claim the opposite.
Only 10% of insanity defenses are successfully in convincing juries that a crime was due to mental illness, and that a defendant did not know right from wrong at the time, or that he was unable, as a result, to conform his conduct to the law. I don’t know the definition of “insanity” as applied in Arizona, but the probability of a guilty verdict from a jury that hears the case is highly likely.
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Jeff, excellent post, thank you so much.
The wingnuts are trying to paint Loughner as a left wing terrorist. Inaccurate, I know, but also predictable from them.
I hope FDL considers your piece in deciding how to straddle this. I think treating it as a breakdown in public safety/social services works best for reality/progressives/liberals.
All the taxpayer supported institutions designed to prevent this are under attack from the corpratists. Those institutions depend on other parts of the safety net, food stamps, Medicaid, job training, public transportation….
Maybe Obama will reconsider his free trade agreement with South Korea.
Reminds one of the Manson case.
The problem I have with diagnosing CPS just based on someone’s political writings is that many, many people — far more than who could possibly actually have CPS — exhibit thought patterns similarly deranged when talking or writing about politics. Go to any wingnut website and you will find tangential thinking, loosening of associations, concrete thinking, neologisms and terms of reference, paranoid delusions, ideas of influence — not only on prominent display, but as the dominant mode of thought and its expression.
Specifically, I think that if you read much of anything written by Constitution in Exile people, you will find the overarching idea that we have all been the victims of a monstrous conspiracy of mysterious yet powerful influence by the cabal that has taken away our Constitution, and you will also find that two of their prominent particular areas of concern overlap with Loughner’s. The Posse Comitatus people within the broader movement focus on the constitutional illegitimacy of the police, starting with federal police, but working its way down to whatever local police they are having trouble with, based on the rationale that the federal police exert this powerful influence even on police who would otherwise be legitimate. And the Paulites gave Loughner his idea about that “Tenth Section” of the Constitution (presumably Art I, sec 10, as only Art I has ten sections) making anything but a gold standard fiat currency illegitmate, a restriction the cabal has set aside in order to allow the Fed to secretly rule the world.
Disallow ideas of influence and you outlaw the whole Tea Party movement. And while I don’t think too much of the baggers, I don’t think that they represent a pandemic of CPS.
If the baggers do represent an outbreak of the disease, it certainly isn’t the first. Central to the beliefs of organized anti-Semitism and the witch hunters (literal) of history, to take just two examples, has been this idea of influence, that Jews or witches have this mysterious, hidden, but almost irresistably powerful, hold on broader society. Did all of these people have CPS? The judges, juries, prosecutors and citizens in attendance at witch trials? The whole nation of Germany from 1933-45? Whole societies and nations have found themselves at various points in history in the grip of murderously insane ideas of influence, without the indviduals in these societies being the least bit diagnosable with CPS.
The only reason that Loughner stands out for consideration of being crazy, is that he added mass murder to his ideas that you find diagnostic. The ideas themselves are thoroughly unremarkable in the current political culture of the Right in this country. If anything, they’re restrained. Beck makes him look like a piker.
But this one difference that Loughner has from myriad other Constitution in Exile enthusiasts — that he has killed people — actually decreases the pre-test probability that he has CPS. As Jeff Kaye notes, schizophrenics are far more often in danger from others than a danger to others, much more often victim than victimizer.
The fact that he has killed people at the behest of paranoid political ideas puts Loughner squarely in the camp of victims of that other disease, that population level disease that wracks whole societies from time to time. He’s not schizophrenic, he’s our generation’s and our nation’s version of the Good German.
Jeff, can I ask you a question about group psychology: Is it possible for reality to shift for an entire group of people, such that the entire group is, at once, delusional? My Lai on a grand scale?
In other words, individual members of such a group, acting alone, would not carry through with certain acts without the unspoken and ‘understood’ silent endorsement of the Whole.
Is it possible, Jeff, for a group, its members not in close physical proximity, to become sociopathic, delusional, unrealistic or otherwise ‘insane’?
I guess this is a large-group question, not a small (three graduate students about to kill each other over a grant proposal- not that) group question.
If one can not understand what is said, one might think it is gibberish. However, to understand prose, one must be versant in the topics being conveyed.
Might be he is talking about the Federal reserve, why money is illusions (the road to OZ, yellow brick road).
MAybe start off with he might be trying to make a point, rather than summaraily dismissing as lunacy. Yes, he is a sick man.
The police have a photo of the POI taken at the Safeway grocery store, and he is reportedly a white male in his 50s. If such a POI exists, it is an open question whether or not he knew in advance who U.S. Representative Giffords and the Arizona Chief Judge were. The others who were killed or wounded by Jared Loughner could have been collateral damage. Reportedly Loughner has mental issues and a history of making death threats.
Only time will tell whether Jared Loughner was acting as a “terrorist” or rather as a “vigilante”, and those two terms vary in applicability depending on the point of view of the writer or speaker. What is a “terrorist” to the alleged bully power-elite may be a “vigilante” to the non-elite.
Shit, okay here it is: Has the ‘mob’ evolved, with the internet and the media, beyond torches and pitchforks? Any concept or research in psychology (a ‘via-media’ group)?
Links appreciated and will be read.
Can you apply the concept of mob violence, such as the My Lei incident, to hate media and its followers, where hate media promotes/encourages violence and followers take action, even though said followers are not acting together in the same place at the same time?
If there is no research so far (that addresses the enormous cluster-fuck and differential equation needed to get a control group not to mention human rights consent issues) then I have my PhD dissertation proposal all planned.
Just as soon as I get out of this dumpster.
What meds was he taking? That’s the question that always pops up in my mind now days. Every rampage type killer in the last ten years plus that I’ve investigated were all doing some sort of prescription medication i.e. Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, etc…
The pharmaceutical companies are to blame as are the doctors who never cure anyone whom repeatedly claim “they got to us too late”.
so do I :)
Steven Lee,
What you said is actually a true statement. Sad, isn’t it.
Drugs that are supposed to help by interfering with brain function often interferes in an unpredicablr manner. But of course, it’s not the drugs, is it? It’s the person’s responsibility even if they were told those drugs were safe, hard to prove otherwise. The pharmeceutical companies will defend themselves with untold millions, supported by the FDA studies that they themselves funded and directed.
‘….Well…he’s never done this before…but he says I can knock a hundred dollars off that Tru-Coat…’
I agree parsnip.
If conspiracies do exist, which I do believe many that the media ridicule are true, then the pharmaceutical companies and their pocketed doctors are the enforcers for the conspirators.
read http://freedom-school.com/the_wizard_of_oz.pdf
Chronic paranoid schizophrenia is very clearly not a communicable disease. There is a fairly strong genetic component to the risk profile, but it doesn’t spread from one person to another.
There is the idea of the “folie a deux” (or trois, as Jeff Kaye alludes to, I believe in a comment on another thread), in which two (or three) people who already have some inherent tendency to disordered thinking (CPS or mania, or even a personality disorder), validate each other’s disordered thought. But this isn’t a prominent or common phenomenon. Schizophrenics are inherently mistrustful of others, especially when it comes to their delusional content, and perhaps more so, they tend to have a proprietary feeling for their delusions, a sense that only they have the special intuitive ability needed to appreciate their inner truth. The agreement of others would normally tend to not be validating for them, but, if anything, devalidating. At any rate, speculation about mechanism aside, you don’t see shared delusions beyond two or three. You certainly don’t see mass movements that should at all be attributed to some sort of mass outbreak of CPS.
But that doesn’t get rid of the fact that we do indeed see mass outbreaks of thought disordered along lines that are indistinguishable from the pattern of thought distortion seen in individuals with CPS. Whole nations and societies are wracked from time to time by waves of hysterical, quite delusional, fear of some completely mythical threat that somehow, quite inexplicably, exerts a powerful control over the world. Imagined conspiracies of witches, and imagined conspiracies of Jews, are two of the more frequent entries in this category, and two examples of mass delusions that have had practical results on the more extreme end of the spectrum of murderous disaster. We see lesser examples all the time, with results not clearly (yet) of nearly the same caliber, such delusions as the idea that the Cosntitution is in Exile, that the Federal Reserve is the tool of some massive conspiracy controlling the world, that Azatlan or Sharia Law are about to take over the US. All of these ideas are every bit as delusional, rely on fantastic ideas of influence, as those of the most extreme schizophrenic. But they are shared by far too many people, who do not display a thought disorder globally, in private aspects of their lives, for it to be at all reasonable to attribute their currency to pandemic CPS.
Sure, we can agree to some notional or metaphorical diagnosis of these people as suffering from a population-level CPS, or call it “mass hysteria” or some such. But those aren’t real diagnoses. One practical difficulty is that the people whom we can clearly see suffer from one or more of these mass delusions, are quite convinced that it is our side that is deluded. No one who attempts to be a “mass psychiatrist” to these people would ever be able to form a therapeutic alliance with them. That’s hard enough with actual CPS patients.
Actual schizophrenics are able to see, at some level, that the therapist represents some sort of valid reality, even if not the same, even if not in some hard to define way as good or real as the private reality that only they can perceive. They tend to get that they at least have to learn, for entirely practical reasons, to accommodate this alternate reality that the therapist and other conventional people are stuck in.
But these “mass hysterics” get too much validation that their way is the only way from fellow True Believers in a faith that already has our number, that has already seen through our claim to a reality basis. They tend to the belief that they are of sufficient numbers that, no, they don’t really have to learn to accommodate our version of reality. They have, as at least a potential remedy, the plan of just getting rid of us. “Don’t retreat, reload!”, as they say to each other in their groups.
That’s the question about this Loughner character. Is he one of those rare CPS sufferers who actually are a threat to others? Or is he some sort of vanguard of a movement to solve the problem of variant perceptions of reality in our society by getting rid of our side? If the latter, will he and McVeigh be the high water mark, or just the beginning?
I thought above you were saying that you weren’t making a diagnosis? Given how little we know at this point it seems unlikely that we can make that distinction.
This may be tangential to the arguments being presented here about mental instability vs. political ideology, but I take to heart the point that everyone has elements of instability under stress. For instance, a person can be quickly made irrational by the loss of sleep. I’ve experienced that myself.
I’d like to segue from that to the current state of political dialogue in this country. Both the ‘right’ and the ‘left’ are arguing on an artificial playingfield which is the money game. There’s no conversation in the public arena that isn’t mindbogglingly directed by the need nowadays to conform to what the money providers wish you to say – if you want to remain in that political arena. Listening to those superficial and equally false ‘arguments’ is a bit like not being able to get healthful sleep – it can drive anyone right off the edge.
We need to get money out of politics, and we need to do it right away. People need to be able to hear the truth from their candidates, not what will please the oligarchy and keep it in power.
Has this not already happened in countries where genocide or massive ethnic cleansing has taken place? Large-scale paranoia, violent acting out in ways that wouldn’t otherwise ever ordinarily take place by “normal” individuals? (as in Rwanda)
Indeed, there is a thin line between the irrationally held beliefs of a society at any given time, and the passage over to large-scale delusional acting out. In this country, the wide-spread paranoia over “commies” and “brainwashing” in the 1950s, or the anti-Muslim hysteria of today, are examples of wide-spread paranoia. The passing over into sociopathic acting out (pogroms, or genocide) is a rarer phenomena, but there are too many examples where it is proven to occur in supposed “civilized” countries, Germany in the last century being the most notable case.
To give a sense of the extreme narrowness of these changes or the values behind the sensibility of these actions, consider war. How delusional were those in the U.S. who backed the war against Iraq? How delusional were Germany, France, Russia, Italy and the U.S. in WWI?
Human beings are largely irrational creatures, and you could read human history (and today’s news) as one long struggle to tame this irrationality and its violent expressions and move to a more rational mode of thought and behavior.
I would add that demagogues and government bureaucrats will manipulate fear and whip up irrational anxieties for purposes of their own (exploitation and power). The spillover into violence, as in this case, is rarely enough for them to change this MO. In this sense, I have spoken of the responsibility of the right-wing hate mongers in this case, just as the feds use fear to whip up support for aggressive and criminal military policies, or use of torture, etc.
Thank you Nathan
“Whole nations and societies are wracked from time to time by waves of hysterical, quite delusional, fear of some completely mythical threat that somehow, quite inexplicably, exerts a powerful control over the world.”
Well put.
Informative and disturbing post, thank you.
Folie a gang. How the hell can one determine that your case was mental illness, and the Manson case was not? Can you really tell the difference from mania and a Meth high? Doubtful.
The point is that the COMBINATION of vitriolic/violent right-wing propaganda AND paranoid schizophrenia leads to assasination.
I remind everyone that psychiatrists saw fit to preside over torture at Gitmo.
I know where this road leads.
Psychiatric diagnosis is a moving target, pun, I suppose, intended.
The combination of vitriolic/violent right wing propaganda and literally anything at all can lead to assassination, and a gun makes it much much easier.
But the pharma cos. will love your formulation.
Seems like a huge problem is that the more paranoid a person is, the least likely they are to seek treatment since they will often see mental health system as part of whatever conspiracy they fear. I understand that there are reasons for the stringent requirements when it comes to involuntarily committment and there have been plenty of abuses in the past when the requirements were less strict. But it seems like the current system isn’t doing the severely mental ill any favors by overly respecting their freedom. And indeed, the end effect of that system is often that the severely mentally ill usually end up losing their freedom anyway by going to jail for petty nuisance offences. Except in jail, the aim is punishment, not treatment.
I’m not a psychologist, but I found his youtube videos and rants–from a psychological point of view–very interesting. I have slight aspergers and have written / drawn things in my past that made total sense to me (at the time) but were strange-looking to the outside world. For instance, when I was young I memorized numbers by connecting the lines on a clock so all my numbers just looked like scribble. I can see a little bit of that attitude in Jared’s ramblings which makes me think it’s not just “rubbish,” but rather controlled rubbish. As though in his mind he is taking notes solely for himself.
As an example, his youtube vid talks about the year BCE 987,123,478,961,876,341,234,098,601,978,618. I tried looking for the source of this number for a while. Was there a pattern? Was there a meaning behind it that meant something only to him? Was it perhaps personally random?
After playing around with it for a while, I figured something out. This number is pure expedient rubbish. Not controlled at all. What he did was left his left hand on the number row (not a number pad) and typed numbers puncuated with commas. The comma is on the right which forced his right hand to move down and keep re-finding the number row. (which is why there’s 6′s AND 0′s). However, he never moved his left from the keys they were on (which is why you never see a 5). This number was just hastily written, he actually just rolled his fingers across the numbers six times, alternating the right hand only when he went to hit the comma.
Why is that significant? Because it shows that although there seems to be some sort of structure, there’s nothing behind the scenes–no research went into pulling that BCE date. Instead, it was expediency to get the message out and he typed it as fast as his fingers could.
But if the message wasn’t actually about the date, then there had to be another reason. I think the message was actually about the message. The fact that it was weird, but controlled (and put on youtube instead of some private diary or something), says to me that he was waving a flag asking for help in the only way he knew how. The flag he was waving said, “there’s an intelligence here that knows it’s getting trapped in a personality it hates. It wants help, but doesn’t trust anyone it knows in person to help.”
Paranoid is correct.
…just my 2 cents.