As I reported back on May 24, both here and at Truthout, a Department of Defense Inspector General for Intelligence report, declassified only months ago, corroborated the accusations of a former Acting Chief of the Asymmetrical Threats Division of Joint Forces Intelligence Command (JFIC) that his unit was told to stop tracking Osama bin Laden in the months prior to 9/11. But the IG report (PDF) cleared JFIC of any wrongdoing and declared, regarding charges JFIC withheld information when asked, that the intelligence agency had “provided a timely and accurate reply in response to the 9/11 Commission.”
Except, thanks to the former Acting Chief of the Asymmetric Threats Division, who released his original declassified letter of complaint to the DoD IG to Truthout, we can see that he never made a claim about information withheld from the 9/11 Commission. The complainant, who the IG dubbed “Iron Man” to protect his identity, said in his letter (PDF) that the “purpose” of his coming forward was “to formally complain” to the inspector general that “JFIC, when instructed in or before May 2002 to provide all original material it might have relevant to al-Qa’ida and the 9/11 attacks for a Congressional inquiry, intentionally misinformed the Department of Defense that it had no purview on such matters and no such material” (emphasis added).
The Congressional inquiry, published in December 2002 as “Joint Inquiry into Intelligence Community Activities Before And After The Terrorist Attacks Of September 11, 2001″ (large PDF), never mentions the Asymmetrical Threat Division, called DO5 in government documents, or that JFIC was tracking Osama bin Laden, or perhaps most explosively, that multiple briefings were given on possible targeting by Al Qaeda, as early as summer 2000, of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
Indeed, these buildings were considered the top targets by DO5, and the military intelligence analysts considered contacting WTC security and architectural/engineering staff, but held off, as Iron Man put it, “because of a command climate discouraging contact with the civilian community.”
Briefings were given on DO5′s work to other elements at U.S. Joint Forces Command (parent command to JFIC and DO5), to CIA, DIA, NSA, NCIS, and other agencies. Iron Man listed some of the names of who received the briefings in his letter of complaint, but they are redacted in the declassified version provided to Truthout.
The entire story and Iron Man’s documents are the subject of a new article at Truthout, authored by Jason Leopold and myself. Iron Man, a former deputy and then Acting Head of the Asymmetrical Threats Division, came forward for reasons of integrity, both professional and personal. Iron Man wrote to the IG in 2006:
I do believe that knowledge of the work done by DO5 would add to DoD’s understanding of its role in the events leading up to 9/11, and how to avoid future attacks. I have been falsely accused of revealing classified information on DO5′s work, when I am certain that information is not and has not been classified since 9/11, and I do want to see myself cleared of that false accusation. In addition, I and the deputy of that team, [redacted], especially carried the burden of knowledge of how close DoD came to bin Ladin and perhaps being able to reduce the number of lives lost on 9/11. I do not want that burden any longer.”
According to Truthout, both a Defense Department spokesperson and spokespeople for the House and Senate Intelligence Committees did not respond to calls for comment.
Why Does It Matter?
The entire 9/11 field of inquiry has been vilified, poisoned over the years by ridicule, sometimes fantastic conspiracy mongering, and fearfulness by journalists of approaching the material, lest they be branded as irresponsible or some kind of conspiracy freak. As a result, little work has been done to investigate, except by a small group of people, some of whom have raised some real questions, others who were intoxicated by the possibility of some giant conspiracy.
If anything, this story is about an intelligence and oversight scandal. It happens to concern 9/11, a very important and meaningful event in modern times. The official story says that no one knew that Al Qaeda was going to attack the World Trade Center or Pentagon, that there was an intelligence failure. But a whistleblower who was a primary participant in the intelligence work around Al Qaeda, whose department worked closely with the military command responsible for terrorism aimed against the United States (USJFCOM’s JTF-Civil Support), has come forward to say that narrative is not true, and to document how and why.
In the future, I’ll next take a look at the IG report itself, which concentrated on Iron Man’s allegations surrounding JFIC’s cover-up of its activities. The report, titled “Review of Joint Forces Intelligence Command Response to 9/11 Commission,” was either a totally inept job from start from finish — even getting the allegation wrong, as noted above — or it was a suborning of IG function to squelch misdeeds from being reported.
Congress should be looking at this pronto, or it will be assumed that its oversight function is a total joke, and the august Senators presiding over their oversight committees mere stooges.



155 Comments

It is time to take a sober look at the events that are still called upon after all these years to justify the billions spent on the “war on terror”, and at least three wars abroad, and see if what we were told was/is true.
Not speculation, but facts. A new investigation to find out why this information was withheld is imperative. What else do we now know?
And then there’s the point in the story. Do we have Congressional oversight or not? Is there any accountability for lying to Congress?
“We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting,” [Timothy] Roemer told CNN. “We were not sure of the intent, whether it was to deceive the commission or merely part of the fumbling bureaucracy.”
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/02/9-11panel.pentagon/index.html
H/T njdoo7 at Digg
So much discussion today at MyFDL about Looking Backward.
That’s not the program, fellahs.
Yeah, I’d like to believe, a la msofia’s article, that I.F. Stone would have found this very interesting.
But I.F. Stone, he’s so passé, right? The man who said, “governments always lie.”
“It is time to take a sober look at the events that are still called upon after all these years to justify the billions spent on the “war on terror”, and at least three wars abroad, and see if what we were told was/is true.”; way past ‘time’ Jeff.
And the ‘snowball’ just keeps getting bigger as it rolls along.
9-11, One way or another, it was cooked up by the neo-cons using their Saudi and Pakistan mercenaries. Since then the US Government has protected and concealed the crimes of this state sponsored terrorism.
Who told them? Who runs our invisible government that commits terrorism routinely?
Here are a few of our terrorist overlords. Richard Haass, Richard Armitage, Philip Mudd, Michael Hayden, James Woolsey, Peter Peterson, Henry Kissinger, Bill Gates, Cofer Black, Jose Rodriguez and of course their little poodle Barack OilBomber.
Suspects not in favor of criminal investigations. No shocker there.
Ted Bundy didn’t like murder investigations.
Why are WE asking the suspects their opinion on criminal investigations?
Agreed. We must live in the age of understatement.
Who told the unit to stop tracking Bin Laden? I noted that in the earlier article. According to the IG report and Iron Man’s own narrative, it was the Commander of JFIC. Now why he or she did that, I don’t know. But it’s worth getting them before a panel to find out, yes?
I don’t buy the 911 lie.
To buy the lie, turns my whole life into a lie.
U S Steel can’t melt a 4′ X 8′X 5″ thick support columns in an hour with high tech furnaces, let alone the 120 that held the trade center up. In unison, in an hour?
Someone is blowing smoke up our pant leg and telling us it’s sunshine.
There may have been some real honest to god ex-Nazis in the middle of all this.
Hochtief Aktiengesellschaft (officially typeset HOCHTIEF) is Germany’s largest construction company.[2] It is based in Essen but operates globally, ranking as the top general builder in the United States through its Turner Corporation subsidiary, and in Australia through the Leighton Group.[3] In 2010 it employed more than 70,000 employees across five corporate divisions. One of these, Hochtief Concessions, is a major airport operator. The others are involved with construction project planning, finance, construction and operation.[2] Work done in 2010 was €23.23 billion, with more than 80% coming from operations outside Germany.[4]
The company’s history dates back to the 1870s and includes engineering feats such as the transplantation of the Abu Simbel rock temples in Egypt (saving them from the rise of the River Nile caused by the Aswan High Dam),[5] and infrastructure projects like the new Athens International Airport[6] and Germany’s first nuclear power plant.[7] It is also noted for its involvement with the Bauhaus movement,[8] particularly for its work at Zollverein colliery[9] and later the reconstruction of the famous Kandinsky-Klee house in Dessau;[10] both are now parts of World Heritage Sites. However, the company’s reputation is tarnished by World War II, when it deployed forced labor on construction projects.[11] It built the Führerbunker in Berlin, scene of Adolf Hitler’s suicide, as well as Hitler’s Berghof retreat and Wolf’s Lair headquarters.
Hochtief GH bought Turner Contruction right about the time Turner Construction did the Seattle Kingdome.
That’s right. The German Engineering Company that was entrusted by Hitler to build his Berlin bunker, and the Wolf’s Lair, Hitler’s personal retreat (and Easy Co. really captured at the end of HBO’s “Band of Brothers”) That company acquired the assets and the expertise that did the King Dome demolition in Seattle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochtief_AG
http://www.controlled-demolition.com/seattle-kingdome
If you’re looking for people capable of doing horrfying acts, you start with the people you know have done horrifying things.
I don’t find this convincing, especially as it relates to this story. While I am not averse to documenting the importance of Nazi or former Nazi connections to government or industry, there must be some documentary proof that links the latter organs to something nefarious. Otherwise, it’s only speculation.
The fact that much of Nazi Germany — industries, the judiciary, the medical community, the intelligence community, etc. — were never held accountable for crimes, and in fact were integrated into West German society, or in some part, transported to the U.S. or other countries, is well-known.
A book that does document the kinds of ways this affected U.S. politics is Christopher Simpson’s Blowback: The First Full Account of America’s Recruitment of Nazis and Its Disastrous Effect on The cold war, Our Domestic and Foreign Policy (1989). Unfortunately, the book is out of print. See http://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Americas-Recruitment-Disastrous-Domestic/dp/002044995X
Have you gone to the web site I gave you the link to twice?
Oh, how I’d loooooove to see *that* panel.
Yes, I looked at the sites, and the linked video. I am not going to get into a discussion about imploded buildings, as I am not an expert. I stick to what I know. Assuming we ever get to another and open investigation, those questions should likely be examined, if only to put a rest to it one way or another. But nothing that you posted is, to me, convincing about this one way or another.
So this company had a Nazi past. Did you ever hear of Bayer?
Bayer wasn’t personally chosen to build the Hitler’s own bunker and Hitler’s Camp David.
Hitler put his own personal safety in the hands of this Engineering Firm. After the attempted assassination bomb plot just missed.
The day will come when the Treasury can’t pay these legions of spooks and merks any more. That will be the day that everything is revealed.
Who would we trust to conduct an investigation? Is there anyone who is not owned? And why would mass murders suffer honest investigators to live?
Sorry. murderers. Gee – an edit function would be nice.
This whole thing and the war that followed and the war that continues today is starting to look like something really far from the truth.
Oh I don’t know…merks works too. :-)
Recommended and tweeted.
workingclass there isn’t anyone…only when we decide to run these pigs out of office with pitch forks maybe some honesty will come forth from amongst us,ordinary people.
Kurt Vonnegut called 9/11 our Reichstag fire. Gosh, I wonder why?
I won’t get into the imploded buildings. But the commission was obviously a white wash from day one. When both Rice and Rumsfeld tearfully testify that if they knew what the hijackers intended to do with hijacked planes they would have moved heaven and earth to stop them, and NO ONE follows up with the obvious question, you know they do not want to know what was going on.
And no I don’t mean why the hell didn’t you know considering at least one of you was at a conference for various foreign leaders that had anti aircraft guns stationed around the building…No I mean the “Forget how the hijackers intended to use the airplanes, you were warned they intended to hijack planes and endanger American citizens – so what did you do to stop hijackings period?”
Whether the buildings were rigged, those sons of bitches were salivating as they waited for a terrorist attack, that’s why the plans to invade Iraq were on Rumsfeld’s desk on 9/11. They needed an excuse.
There’s so much dis and misinformation about the events of 911… it’s mind boggling. Clearly the official story has as many holes in it as a swiss cheese.
But the truth advocates are infiltrated and populated by all sorts of people and cautious sensible positions are not being espoused.
We need a new investigation. Some independent scientists and engineers are doing what they can… not influenced by the fanatical truthers… or the government propaganda. Will any one listen? Not likely… the well is pretty well poisoned by now.
Don’t need to melt them, just heat them enough to lose their structural strength.
agree on the lack of clear information. i’m no 9-11 truther, but the only thing fairly certain is that we won’t know for a long time.
911 will come to represent a colossal failure of the President Bush to take proper action to protect America when all signs in the Intelligence community knew an attack was coming.
Probably not a conspiracy (that was Bush’s election) – this happenned because he’s an incompetent boob – the peak of perfection for a Reagan Republican President – a clueless incompetent idiot.
Hans Bernd Gisevius started his career in early 1933 as a legal official in the newly-formed Gestapo. He soon had a falling out with the heads of that agency, but he continued to work in internal security positions through most of the history of Nazi Germany.
He eventually became involved in the German conspiracies against Hitler, started working for Allen Dulles and the OSS, and eventually fled to Switzerland after the failure of the plot to assassinate Hitler.
As his postwar book (but based largely on prewar notes) To the Bitter End shows, he was fascinated by the Reichstag Fire, which he was convinced had been set by the Nazis.
After the war, he came to the U.S., and served as an adviser to the newly-formed CIA, Allen Dulles, and Prescott Bush.
This could have been the route by which powerful circles in the U.S., especially in the CIA, became aware of what had really gone on in the Reichstag Fire.
If Bush was not involved in a 9/11 conspiracy, that doesn’t necessarily mean that no one was.
Wrong. You follow the evidence where the evidence lead.
“Cautious” and “sensible” are conclusions, Sander. That’s not where investigations begin.
Susie Dow, who writes for e pluribus media, has written an article concerning this story (or rather the original Truthout article) in terms of the Kirk von Ackermann angle (which I didn’t mention in the article here, but did in my earlier FDL article on the IG report.
Dow has been following the von Ackermann story for about seven years now, and was first to identify the Asymmetric Threat Division, although didn’t name it outright until recently. Interested readers should check it out.
http://missingman.blogspot.com/2011/06/truthout-intelligence-withheld-from.html
Btw, she notes that her research showed her that von Ackermann was one of the most admired men in the intelligence field. “Iron Man”, too, is well-known among his peers, I’m told, and much respected.
I hope readers can look beyond the lurid world of speculation to discern the real story here, i.e., a secretive world of intelligence organizations, which includes people of both integrity and dishonesty, has usurped its function and placed itself beyond civilian oversight. This is a danger to democracy, and its effects upon the society, or on event like 9/11, need to be examined in a way that have not since at least the Church and Pike and Kennedy hearings of the 1970s.
Heh. Must be the whiskey.
You need about 2000 F or more to dissolve the concrete and desks and humans in 12 seconds, forming a volcanic plume.
Is Iron Man LCOL Anthony Shaffer, and is this intel program Able Danger?
I find it very disturbing that DO5 was ordered “to stop tracking Osama bin Laden in the months prior to 9/11″ and, according to the whistleblower, the order came down after “multiple briefings were given on possible targeting by Al Qaeda, as early as summer 2000, of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.”
Who gave the order to stop tracking OBL and why did he do it?
That is a reasonable question to ask and we the people should keep asking it until we get a satisfactory answer.
Bureaucratic incompetence is a potential answer and maybe the incompetence was covered up to avoid embarrassment. It’s possible, I suppose, that someone thought it was impossible to pull that off and a waste of time to keep tracking a man who couldn’t carry it out. After all, Republicans now want to disable early warning tsunami alerts because they deem them too expensive.
Having said that, however, we all knew that the World Trade Center was a target because of the earlier World Trade Center bombing and we also know that the Clinton administration had identified OBL as a serious terrorist threat. Under those circumstances, an order to stop tracking OBL seems incredibly reckless. So reckless that I find it hard to believe that the order wasn’t given with the specific intent of facilitating and increasing the probability that an attack could be carried out successfully, if initiated as the intelligence indicated it might be.
This is where I’m at: Given the recent information, I believe the investigation must be reopened and I think the DoD should bear the burden of persuading the American people that the decision to stop tracking OBL was reckless and not intentional. In other words, I already have ruled out negligence.
This is an ugly situation getting a lot uglier.
“Who would we trust to conduct an investigation?”
I conceive of such an investigation as something akin to the Bertrand Russell-led inquiry of the 1960s on the Vietnam War.
The actual constitution of such an investigation is a matter of political struggle. Ideally, Congress could and should investigate, but we would have to demand no or very limited closed door hearings, and the press would have to be mobilized to do their job as well. And of course, you have to have an active, informed, and committed public as well. All of these things do not exist as yet, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible.
I am even more invested in the idea of an investigation into torture, or even the lead-up to the Iraq War. Many crimes, many questions.
rec’d
nice to see this crucial thing being discussed
Jet fuel does not burn hot enough to cause structural steel to lose structural integrity.
I hope you are wrong, about the poisoned well, I mean.
And to Adam503, any investigator would wish to start off with caution and sensible approach. Perhaps those words have become impressed with the idea of political sell-out over the years.
We should not abandon the language, however. In your case, you have not, in your many comments on this blog posting, made any comment upon the substance of what is written here, or what to do about such information. If you have your own agenda, fine.
But I’d like to see you and others address the matters at hand here, which are mainly about intelligence and intelligence failures, as well as revealing details of a highly classified, secret intelligence unit charged with tracking bin Laden and al-Qaeda prior to 9/11 and how its work was withheld from Congress. This is NOT a story about what happened on 9/11.
No to both of your questions.
but Atta s drivers license was intact,or was it the passport?
I agree it’s ugly. But let me say that I don’t know that DoD stopped tracking OBL entirely pre-9/11. But at least one entity was stopped from doing so, and one which had been, apparently, fairly successful, was giving daily briefings, etc.
Maybe it was bureaucratic incompetency, or even rivalry. (DO5 was said to be a DoD version of CIA’s CTC, and btw, according to Iron Man’s letter, which I hope everyone downloads and reads (see PDF link in article), DO5 didn’t think too much of CIA’s efforts re OBL.
Whether it is something more, something more conspiratorial, I think a very contingent case could be made that the hypothesis is worth pursuing. Yes, the investigation should be reopened, and its integrity guaranteed by public oversight.
If a gauntlet were thrown down here, I’d say it’s too Congress and the Fourth Estate.
i wish i could list all the peeps on this site,who would not even DISSCUSS the possibility of an inside job
One of my personal issues is that rat Zelikow blamed the New York Fire Department, for telling the South Tower employees to return to work. Zelikow had no evidence for that slander. It was likely SECURACOM issued that order.
and everything has gone downhill since…bolder liars,bolder thieves
you might want to seek professional help to assist with your delusions regarding structural failures. steel only needs to be heated – not melted – in order to be weakened enough to fail, catastrophically.
i’m sure any structural engineer picked at random from the nyc phonebook could explain that to you. if you can’t find one, i’ll be happy to refer you to several.
having witnessed the implosion of buildings, i can tell you that a good, clean implosion requires weeks of preparation stringing and tensioning cables, then placing and wiring explosives and calculating the timed sequence.
are you telling me that someone spent two weeks rigging the WTC towers prior to Sept. 11?
The long-known Kuala Lumpur and related fumbling also still looks pretty strange to me. Maybe even more so now, given that they took place around Jan. 2000.
The last redoubt of the torturing classes is likely to be that they have been the essential heroes of tragic necessity. One best shot at shaking those walls down would be to expose whatever it is that seems to be lurking about in the shadows of the pre-9/11 story, holding everything up.
Look… did you guys see that whole BP flaming oil mess last summer last summer? You remember that right? Big oil platform on fire. Burned for days.
We’re all going to basic lesson in material science here. My dad got his PhD in Metallurgical Engineering for a Big 10 University. The department has been renamed Material Science since my dad got his degree,.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill
There’s a picture of the Deepwater Horison platform taken on April 21. That oil drilling platform is made of structural steel. All these oil platforms are made of structual steel.
Do you think people like my dad would spend their whole careers making oil platforms, and pipelines, and drill tubes for the oil industry if they there was any chance any burning oil product could melt that steel?
That Deepwater Horizon oil platform was on fire for almost 24 hours when that picture was taken. That structrual steel platform is still holding it’s structural integrity after 24 hours of a pipeline full of flaming crude oil pouring out.
The Twin Towers core beams were between 2 and 5 inches think. The steel beams on the Deepwater Horizon were a small fraction of what was supporting the Twin Towers.
Of course follow where investigation leads. I have been doing research for almost 3 years… but what I find is not sexy enough for the truthers. They want some huge complex conspiracy with the NWO running intel with Mossad and the DOD along with Guiliani and Silverstein.
Stick to the science…
You could just look at the signatories of PNAC and get the full list.
I know what ever single COLUMN was.. and the vast majority of them are not melted or show signs of melting.
Some of the columns… perhaps as few as 12 at the top where they had webs of less than 1/5 inches thick might have been “attacked” with some sort of high temp device… and that could trigger the collapse.
I’ve been an architect for going on 42 yrs… and I have been studying this structure and its weaknesses which WERE what would have been exploited by whomever was trying to take them down.
And my research indicates it was a lot simpler than the truthers want it to be. Why is that?
Highly rcc’d.
Thanks Mr. Kaye n Pups for the additional comments relevant to the diary . . . lots of new info for me to digest on this subject.
As to your last paragraph regarding oversight functions, Congress, stooges?
Been that way since the Warren Commission, and long before.
Like legislated deregulation for any corporate activities be it media, oil, ag, finance/banking, it’s only gotten worse and so heinous it’s plainly out in the open for any fool of we the people to see.
That’s what happens when wealth and power are concentrated in to the hands of too few who own the judiciary, congress and the executive branches.
Not to mention the military.
There will be no investigation regardless of any whistle blowing, that’s a wish and desire akin to pony’s with horns on their heads.
Only the total breakdown of this system will enable change of any sorts.
N that, my dear Pups, is taking place around us daily. and will get worse, in our lifetimes.
Again, great read Mr. Kaye, but any allusions to REAL uncompromised investigations is wishful thining under this system as is, IMHO.
One key issue is that members of Congress know a lot more than the public. Meaning some of the intelligence failures have been investigated only the public has not been allowed to evaluate the information due to classification. For example the intelligence agents involved in al-Hazmi/al-Mihdhar sharing failures (i.e. Blee, Wilshire, Middleton, Corsi, etc.) testified in closed session hearings. The 9/11 Commission MFR’s with those agents are still classified. I think this notion of withheld DO5 information gives Congress a pass that they don’t deserve. Many members of Congress have been active participants in the fearmongering and selling of the idea that the failure to prevent 9/11 was due to the lack of government power. They have been successful in their efforts to justify the powergrab in large part due to the secrecy.
Not much hope for outing the truth, if it’s Congress and the Fourth Estate we’re counting on. I’d say whistleblowers are the better bet.
There’s nothing complex about a false flag attack at all, Sander. It’s turns out they happen all the time
The Maine in Havana Harbor, the Reichstag Fire, Joint Chief attempt to pull Operation Northwoods…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Gulf of Tonkin
I suggest reading all the articles I’ve either written or participated in writing on this.
One important aspect mentioned in the Kaye/Leopold piece — and if you read Iron Man’s letter — is that after hearing from within that JFIC was holding back info to Congress, he went directly to DIA’s Congressional Affairs Office and gave them evidence of DO5′s work he had held onto himself. Yet even then, the information doesn’t appear to have been passed to the intelligence committees.
In the original T.O. story, we made the point that we asked both DoD and the Intel committees to comment on this, and they never returned any comment.
I really should write an entire diary on that, but I don’t know what the appetite is at this blog for such articles.
I generally agree that Congress has failed to do its job. But there’s no denying, from this witness’s account, that DoD, or portions of it decided for their own reasons not to inform Congress when asked. To make matters more interesting, the request was funneled from the Director of DIA, to JFCOM, to JFIC, who answered back in the negative.
The IG report is full of red herrings and mistakes. It’s laughable, really.
We are left with a big Why, another among a group of whys, it’s true, but one that might bring us closer to the heart of what was going on than some others.
Also, it’s a big deal, imho, when someone from inside military intelligence speaks out on this. Will we start to hear more from people who know more, and not just on this, but on a lot of things?
Where is your research?
Got links?
What proof is there that shows with [no doubt] that these documents are legit, if any?
Jeff Kaye, why are you refusing to address all the tools that are used daily handle and process flammable oil products?
The exact same material that the Deepwater Horizon oil platform was made. Structural steel drilling platform was clearly engulfed in flaming crude oil under pressure for almost 24 hours and still retaining it’s structural integrity.
It’s this simple. The whole oil industry is built from steel tools and structures. Go check!
We don’t know for sure there were any actual hijacking. We do know the technology existed to have the auto pilot systems take over control of the planes and navigate those planes by GPS signal, though
The predator drones piloted by remote control appeared right close to then too.
Thank you for mentioning my work at ePluribus Media and the Missing Man. I found the Unclassified FOIA Response attached to your article absolutely fascinating to read. I suspect the subtleties of just what’s revealed in that Response might be easily missed at first glance. Just the teeny glimpse in to the turf wars alone amongst the alphabet soup agencies were stunning.
Re: briefings – I have always been curious to find out if any of the Clinton White House administration remember Kirk von Ackermann from his briefings. At least, I’ve always been under the impression that he actually attended some briefings in person at the White House.
For what it’s worth – I am also under the impression von Ackermann was read into and held higher security clearances than many of his superiors. I can imagine that might not go down too well in an organization as rigid in hierarchy as Defense is. A mere USAF Captain with higher security clearance – and then having the audacity to tell the higher ups where their biggest vulnerabilities were…that must not have been too popular.
I have no insight as to what happened regarding the disruption of tracking bin Laden pre-9/11. I do wonder what part vanity and hubris played – and whose vanity and hubris was involved of course.
Keep up the great work!
I don’t believe in coincidence theories anymore.
When a busloads of people connected to the George H.W Bush’s little corner of the CIA start falling out of the sky landing in and around the World Trade Center offices starting a little less than a year before the whole damn thing blows up, and one of the building falls apart without a plane even hitting it, I note that fact.
I refused to cover my eyes and pretend “such things don’t happen here.”
Silverstein bought the WTC 6 months before 9/11. That’s significant. His last name is not significant.
“Stick to the science”?
1500+ architects and engineers are doing exactly that, and none of them have posited “some huge complex conspiracy”. Quite the contrary. This a huge body of professionals willing to put their reputations on the line, not some nut like Orly Taitz claiming a piece of paper doesn’t exist.
http://ae911truth.org/
What does your research say regarding molten steel pouring out of WTC2, pre-collapse?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d5iIoCiI8g
..and no, its not aluminum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxFXFkN6FaI&feature=related
This is the proverbial smoking gun of 9/11, proof of thermitic material cutting perimeter columns pre-collapse.
What else do you want, Trusters?
Adam, I already told you. I have zero expertise on the subject, and while you and others spout who’s the expert, I have no way to evaluate these claims at this time. I suppose I could take the time, but I barely have time for the things I do anyway. This is fairly technical, and I don’t have the ability to go there.
There are plenty of other pieces of evidence that need scrutiny, no matter what your bent. Let me ask you, what is your evaluation of what I’ve presented in the article presented above (or at Truthout).
I understand you deeply believe you have something important to say, but why don’t you spend your time writing and documenting something that would convince a layman? Otherwise, what’s the point?
There were many ways to check the authenticity of what was written in the article. If they were not authentic, you’d think that DoD would have told us by now.
In the end, any news reporter has to trust his or her source. These documents are authentic. I’m not going to go into the ways I used to assure myself of that, because, in part, it could hurt the confidentiality of the source, who asked to be kept private for the sake of his family’s privacy.
Have you found something in the article that is not true? If so, please report that to us. In fact, it would be your duty to do so.
Sander… what does the CIA do for a living?
Covert Ops… like blowing shit up secretly.
Thinking someone who was CIA Director… the guy who was in charge of blowing stuff up secretly for the US might blow something up secretly.
Stunning.
the most compelling piece of evidence that the WTC were rigged with exlosives is the fact that the buildings fell from start to finish in about ten (10) seconds.
do the calculation for yourself: t = sqrt(2(height)/g)~sqrt(2(420m)/(10m/s2))=sqrt(820m/10m/s2)=sqrt(820)s~ 9 seconds.
the buildings fell at the same rate as a stone falling unimpeded from about a quarter mile up.
tell me about your structural integrity.
corrected:
the most compelling piece of evidence that the WTC towers were rigged with exlosives is the fact that the buildings fell from start to finish in about ten (10) seconds.
do the calculation for yourself: t = sqrt(2(height)/g)~sqrt(2(420m)/(10m/s2))=sqrt(820m/10m/s2)=sqrt(82)s~ 9 seconds.
the buildings fell at the same rate as a stone falling unimpeded from about a quarter mile up.
tell me about your structural integrity.
correct:
the most compelling piece of evidence that the WTC towers were rigged with explosives is the fact that the buildings fell from start to finish in about ten (10) seconds.
do the calculation for yourself: t = sqrt(2(height)/g)~sqrt(2(420m)/(10m/s2))=sqrt(820m/10m/s2)=sqrt(82)s~ 9 seconds.
the buildings fell at the same rate as a stone falling unimpeded from about a quarter mile up.
tell me about your structural integrity.
“In the original T.O. story, we made the point that we asked both DoD and the [Congressional] Intelligence Committees to comment on this, and they never returned any comment.
I really should write an entire diary on that, but I don’t know what the appetite is at this blog for such articles.”
Indeed, Jeff. FDL already seems to be heading quickly into mindless-mocking mode as it obligingly covers the (still-way-too-early) presidential primary “debate” season, this time featuring, of course, only Republican candidates. I should say, rather, featuring Republican personalities, because the ‘passionate distraction’ of the media-driven, personality-based “presidential race” coverage is what regrettably still seems to attract the most attention, comments, and clicks from readers, here as elsewhere across the media landscape. In comparison, substantive coverage of Congress doesn’t seem to stand a chance – so much less exciting, and much too dull without the games of Party conflict, particularly now that even Congressional incumbents hardly bother to go through the motions of being a legislative body anymore… The Party Is All.
So let’s see:
Veteran military intelligence analyst “Iron Man” filed a formal complaint (in part classified, in part unclassified) with the Inspector General of the Department of Defense, on May 8, 2006. Four months later – on September 11, 2006 - “Iron Man” filed a Freedom of Information Act request for public release of the material that he had filed with the Office of the Inspector General (OIG) in May of that year.
It then took four and a half years, until April 8, 2011, for Alesia Y. Williams, Chief of the Defense Intelligence Agency’s FOIA Staff, to respond to “Iron Man’s” 2006 FOIA request for his own submitted complaint, with a cover letter stating, in the first sentence:
And:
[This FOIA request was submitted by someone who knew that particular documents (with a modest page-count) existed, knew when they were filed (less than six months before the request), and to whom they were sent, yet still the DOD/DIA was purportedly "unable to locate" this unclassified formal IG complaint, which was officially requested, under FOIA, only four months after it had been received by the DOD OIG (and, as it turned out, before the OIG had even opened an investigation). Contrast that with all the FOIA requests that are submitted to the DOD without specific knowledge of what actually once existed in the department's files...]
For its part, in response to the formal May, 2006 complaint sent to it by “Iron Man,” the DOD’s Office of Inspector General didn’t get around to completing a (classified) report in response to “Iron Man’s” concerns until September, 2008. In the interim, the DOD OIG apparently lost the unclassified complaint itself, only to receive the complaint a second time, after “Iron Man” resubmitted it in October 2007, this time to the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which forwarded it to the DOD OIG (specifically, to General Claude Kicklighter) in late November, 2007. In the process of its belated, year-long formal investigation, the DOD OIG (specifically, its deputy inspector general for intelligence) managed to completely overlook and ignore (or, charitably, to misinterpret) a core component of the 2006 complaint (which was intended to address the DOD’s dishonest response to a request for documents from the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, which was channeled to the DOD through the DOJ). Finally, the IG’s resulting classified 2008 report was only made publicly available – as the result of a FOIA request made by Steven Aftergood of the FAS – in 2010 (which, however, was more than two years faster than it took DOD to file its response to “Iron Man’s” 2006 FOIA request for his original IG complaint, which had led to the 2008 report).
No wonder that Senator Chuck Grassley and his staff have been trying to ride herd on the DOD Office of Inspector General – for years now – in an effort to remedy the DOD OIG’s culture of rank incompetence and/or deliberate failure to perform, at least as regards its audit reporting, in connection with DOD spending. Which, as it happens, Chuck Grassley discussed in-depth on the Senate floor just a week ago:
[Thank you, Iron Man, for speaking out, and Truthout.org, for helping Iron Man to do so. You've helped to expose a system so self-bound by excessive secrecy - including in the way it intentionally, with few repercussions, cuts Congress out of the loop to avoid accountability - because of self-defeating overclassification and "compartmentalized" sprawl, that it almost seems inevitable that whatever valuable pre-9/11 intelligence did exist, in closely-held quarters deep in the bureaucracy, was never acted upon in time, or even known to those responsible for knowing and acting.]
That’s the thing, my feeling is presenting this information about structural steel beams in the World Trade Center is an example everyone can understand.
People know what a steel beam is. The minimum standards for steel beams used in US construction just do not vary a whole lot. All these materials are tested and inspected to ensure they meet the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel
Here’s video of another oil platform disaster that makes my point even better. Piper Alpha in the North Sea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhZO4YFq68E
At about :40 sec. the explosion starts
(part of comment cut off)
…But at the 2:30 mark on the video you see the next day a good 1/3 of that Piper Alpha drilling platform is still standing.
It should be clear to any layman after seeing that video a no building made with 50-60 structural steel core beams 2-5 inches thick is going to fall apart in an hour in a jet fuel fire like is claimed the twin towers did.
“the buildings fell at the same rate as a stone falling unimpeded from about a quarter mile up.”
That assertion isnt true at all. The videos of the collapses show that they did not fall at a free fall rate. Each building fell at different speeds. And each building fell in unique ways. In fact none of the buildings including wtc 7 fell anything like how controlled demolitions fall.
“Have you found something in the article that is not true? If so, please report that to us. In fact, it would be your duty to do so.”
Interesting its “my duty” yet your duty allows the protection of an informant. Exposing this alleged informant would do more for your cause then protecting him. Seems rather convenient.
Until there is proof that this material is real there would be no reason that the DOD would need to even bother. And logic says that this informant would be in the same danger as they are now. It would be to obvious who it was based on the documents alone.
Good try though it worked on the believers quit easily I see. But us real skeptics will just wait till you provide a shred of evidence to your claim.
BTW a little advice: Only truthers refer to the date and the events as “9/11″. lol ooops didnt think of the obvious did you?
One more try at playing Bill Nye to try demonstrate this…
What temperature does your oven at home go up to?
The mepetroleum.com jet fuel page says the open air burning temperature for jet fuel is “260-315°C (500-599°F)”
http://www.mepetroleum.com/jet_fuel.htm
jet fuel open air burning temperature: “287.5 °C (549.5 °F)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel
Go set your oven to 550 degrees. When your oven reaches 550 degrees, put a stainless steel utensil in your oven. Knife. Fork. Spoon. Whatever. Set it inside.
Wait.
Tell me when your stainless steel utensil melts (or warps enough to lose it’s structural integrity and falls to the bottom of your oven)
Nothing happened yet, huh?
Go to bed. Leave it on. Check it in the morning.
Nothing happened overnight either, huh?
What is your oven made of, by the way. Probably steel, right? So did your oven melt when you set the temperature to 550 degrees. No, huh?
Are you now starting to get yet how ridiculous it is to claim jet fuel melted the twin towers.
I hate to stir the conspiracy people but…
A friend of mine’s child spent her college career just preparing to be an FBI agent. They made it 6 months before 9/11. They quit 3 months after 9/11 because they witnessed everyone at the top worried about what where to put Bush on 9/11, 2 weeks BEFORE 9/11. Bush wound up near his brother…you know the rest.
This is very similar to the story I heard from a family friend that worked in Roosevelt’s Whitehouse before Pearl (which has long since been confirmed).
Assuming this is true (I know it is, I know the father, but I do not consider it provable to others with any safety for those involved), this puts the whole scenario into a believable position. That is, that the Gov. operators (CHENEY) knew it was coming and allowed it to happen. That, IMO, is much more believable than doing it themselves, etc., etc..
As an engineering kinda’ guy, I have no problem otherwise understanding why the towers fell (many correct answers given above as rebuttals above). Also I was watching the History channel about building failures long before 9/11 that showed a similarly constructed building that collapsed during construction, in exactly the same way. This one due to insufficiently cured concrete.
Now couple this with all the advantages to these evil creatures that got hold of our government and you get a much more likely “conspiracy”.
“Whether it is something more, something more conspiratorial, I think a very contingent case could be made that the hypothesis is worth pursuing. Yes, the investigation should be reopened, and its integrity guaranteed by public oversight.
If a gauntlet were thrown down here, I’d say it’s too Congress and the Fourth Estate.”
Yes, I agree. Unfortunately, however, I don’t believe there is any chance whatsoever that Congress will do anything except abdicate its responsibilities. As for the Fourth Estate, with the exception of independent journalists like you, I don’t believe there is any chance it will do its job either.
Please keep on persevering until the walls come crumbling down and the truth is exposed for all to see. You and others like you are our only hope.
Hi Jeff… I have been an advocate for 9/11 Justice for almost 9/11 years. Maybe this information will help you and your readers out.
http://911truthnews.com/jon-golds-official-911-justice-start-up-kit/
“The entire 9/11 field of inquiry has been vilified, poisoned over the years by ridicule, sometimes fantastic conspiracy mongering, and fearfulness by journalists of approaching the material, lest they be branded as irresponsible or some kind of conspiracy freak. As a result, little work has been done to investigate, except by a small group of people, some of whom have raised some real questions, others who were intoxicated by the possibility of some giant conspiracy.”
I am part of that “small group of people.”
9/11 years? 9 years.
Thanks for the great reply, and the Grassley comments.
The whole affair with the IG is like an opera buffa. What is a different matter is how DIA Congressional Affairs Office handled the complaint (in essence), when it first came to them, not as an IG complaint, of course, but as a request to forward evidence.
Either they blew it or Congress got it and suppressed it. I tend to thing Congress never got it, but I could be wrong.
Iron Man’s letter *is* a must read. Startling.
Its been going down hill since JFK, RFK, and Martin Luther King.
You don’t turn buildings into tiny bits of dust from a fire.
Go over to september clues and read a little.
Summed up my feelings nicely. I, too, don’t wish to get into the issue of possibly imploded buildings. I think that’s a waste of energy at this point and not worth pursuing.
The *real* issue is that the W Bush Admin was planning to attack Iraq almost no matter what. Richard Clark has well-documented the fact that W, Condi, Romney, Cheney, et al, were duly warned to be prepared for this kind of attack… and soon. And they basically blew off Clark & told him to go away; they had it “covered.”
Did the CIA or some other spook outfit actually train the 9/11 terrorists and buy off their families for these men to basically commit suicide? Also possible but I think another blind alley not worth pursuing too much. Waste of time & energy, even if quite believable.
I say: stick with KNOWN FACTS, as those are quite incriminating in and of themselves. Stick with that, and the arguments become easier and clearer … and less prone to looking “kooky” and “fantastic.”
JMHO, but that’s how I see it. The W Admin *planned* to go to War, Inc (mainly to make money), and that’s ALSO why there was a coup d’etat to get W in office, even though Gore won. The PTB wanted to *make money* offa WAR, Inc. Period. The end.
yes
You mention the Warren Commission, and that’s my thought exactly. Nothing will ever *truly* be revealed. Just like JFK, we will never know what really happened. That’s my take. Albeit, investigation, research, etc, is fine by me.
“All of these things do not exist as yet, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible.”
Agreed. An honest investigation is needed. It just can’t happen while the perps are still in power. I follow your posts on this subject and admire your work. May the force be with you.
Agree with you. I think it’s much more cogent to focus on the W Bush Admin, rather than get into arguments about whether the WTC towers could collapse due explosive devices, etc. *Maybe* the explosive devices set by insider spooks is possible (I don’t doubt that the PTB are vile & evil enough to do something like that), but I say: stick with FACTS that are easily verified.
IF other info comes to light: fine.
But I think the main issue is that the W Bush Admin deliberately and with malice aforethought *planned* to go to War to make money and used whatever avenue that presented itself… to the detriment (on so many levels) of the US populace. They are both venal CROOKS and treasonous Traitors. That’s enough for me.
I think that getting bogged down into other arguments just weakens the whole position of questioning what happened on 9/11. And frankly, imo, that just inures to the benefit of the CROOKS who perpetrated this unmitigated and *ongoing* disaster/quagmire on US citizens.
JMHO, of course, but just saying…
Nice character assassination.
You can’t heat 5″ Steel used on vertical columns in an hour to the point of weakening, period. they were a closed end “E” on top of it or an I beam with three plates instead if the normal one center plate.
video link showing all the ways it doesn’t look like a controlled demolition please? Every cnn, etc news feed I saw, well they did look like that..but I don’t know anything about the process really..just saying they looked like it to me..a novice.
Btw, the “need to consult w/multiple offices in the agency” may have been because Iron Man listed what looks like dozens of analysts names, including possibly heads of departments, in the complaint, as I noted in the article. The names, though not the agencies, were redacted.
Still, four and a half years is ridiculous.
Meanwhile, my humble request for a copy of the DoD IG report on use of drugs on detainees is about to go into its second year of waiting……
Thanks, Susie, and also for your hard work on the subject, which was very helpful in orienting me when I first came across this material, i.e., the IG report.
The response to the open records request reminds me of some responses to my own open records requests when stuff is being hidden: ‘We cannot at this time find blah blah blah…’
and ‘If you are unsatisfied with this response you can blah blah blah.’
Plus any sane person concerned about their life wouldnt run to a very discredited website for help. Its the equivalent of going to the National Inquirer to announce a presidential run.
http://www.debunking911.com/freefall.htm
This article explains it rather well.
And just how do you heat it so precisely in the right places that the building collapses symmetrically into its foundations?
Actually, researchers have, over time, figured out a lot about what must have happened in the JFK assassination. Read the five-volume Inside the Assassination Records Review Board: The U.S. Government’s Final Attempt to Reconcile the Conflicting Medical Evidence in the Assassination of JFK, by Douglas P. Horne, former Chief Analyst of Military Records for the Assassination Records Review Board, a congressionally established body that had subpoena powers. The key turns out to be the falsified evidence, especially the falsified medical evidence, and what can be concluded about how and by whom that evidence could have been falsified.
Don’t you think that it’s part of their planning to include within their plans details that are so incredible that they can accuse anybody who does manage to figure out what happened of being nuts?
So two weeks before 9/11, insiders in the administration were able to plan on when it would occur?
I wonder when the plotters decided on the 9/11 date.
powwow, your commentary is fantastic! What you have laid out is a story in and of itself and I am very appreciative you took the time to further inform people here. Would love if you could leave this same comment, if it’s not too much trouble, on the Truthout story page as it compliments our report.
Thank you!
what a ridiculous, ludicrous, completely irrational statement. The documents are real. It’s listed under the FOIA release index issued by DOD. Jeez.
It is so disturbing to me to see the “truthers” hijack this story, no pun intended. What a shame.
Agree strongly. The scoop on IronMan and his letter is getting totally lost.
What part claiming jet fuel, which is really just burning kerosene, melted the twin towers is not sinking in, onitgoes?
The temperature jet fuel/kerosene burns is just as verifiable as the temperature water freezes and boils! What’s not sinking in here?!?
Got any links to that?
To Adam 503
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/0112/eagar/eagar-0112.html
“A basic engineering assessment of the design of the World Trade Center dispels many of the myths about its collapse. First, the perimeter tube design of the towers protected them from failing upon impact. The outer columns were engineered to stiffen the towers in heavy wind, and they protected the inner core, which held the gravity load. Removal of some of the outer columns alone could not bring the building down. Furthermore, because of the stiffness of the perimeter design, it was impossible for the aircraft impact to topple the building.
“However, the building was not able to withstand the intense heat of the jet fuel fire. While it was impossible for the fuel-rich, diffuse-flame fire to burn at a temperature high enough to melt the steel, its quick ignition and intense heat caused the steel to lose at least half its strength and to deform, causing buckling or crippling. This weakening and deformation caused a few floors to fall, while the weight of the stories above them crushed the floors below, initiating a domino collapse.
“It would be impractical to design buildings to withstand the fuel load induced by a burning commercial airliner. Instead of saving the building, engineers and officials should focus on saving the lives of those inside by designing better safety and evacuation systems.”
This site impresses me with its clear explanations of the structural design of the towers and the physics of heat/burning, including the fact that temperature and heat are two different kinds of measure (something new to me as an English major), and of the collapse (the buildings were so heavy and dense in materials (though relatively light weight compared to conventional buildings) they had too much inertia to do anything but fall straight down. The author stresses the light weight construction of the towers, each one modelled as a large cantilever vertical column, so that “In essence, the building is an egg-crate construction that is about 95 percent air, explaining why the rubble after the collapse was only a few stories high.”
Also the thrust of the article was not defending TPB from conspiracy theorists but how to prevent such a high death toll in the event of something like this happening again.
The bottom line for this discussion: it was not necessary for the fires to cause the steel columns to melt. Simply the fact that the chaotic fire heated some of them to different temps along their lengths caused them to lose structural integrity and to buckle (see the article for details on why), causing a few floors to fall which then triggered the whole collapse.
A very discredited website that has been breaking news about these and other hot-button issues for quite some time and, in addition, showcasing Jeff’s groundbreaking work. That Iron Man decided to reach out is simply recognition of that fact. No one else in the media is covering these issues. They’re too busy with Weinergate.
My point is that in order for anyone to take these documents seriously more concern needs to be made in promoting creditable sources and present the information in a way that doesn’t just appease the believers.
If you think that my observations are harsh, then you are correct. I make harsh accusations to bring forward individual thought rather than perpetuating a theory without most people really giving any critical thinking just following something that fits in with their own theories.
Wow! This is what I miss for deciding to take a break for a day!
My point is that in order for anyone to take these documents seriously more concern needs to be made in promoting creditable sources and present the information in a way that doesn’t just appease the believers.
If you think that my observations are harsh, then you are correct. I make harsh accusations to bring forward individual thought rather than perpetuating a theory without most people really giving any critical thinking just following something that fits in with their own theories. And if you criticize their theories in any way shape or form you will be accused of being an Government shrill. If that attack gets flack then they retreat back to the ‘your a rightwinger’ attack.
They are completely and pathetically predictable.
Something can be listed but what is the actual content? The index doesnt prove the content. And wheres that link to an .GOV site to back your claim anyways?
Just stop
Stop.
I already have checked with a whole bunch scientists and engineers. Lots. Bunches. Hoards.
More than 1500 highly trained scientists, engineers, architects have signed the petition at Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth for a new independent investigation of the events of 9/11.
http://www.ae911truth.org/
No… people probably started thinking the World Trade Center was more of a liability to them than an asset about the time they found out it was going to cost close to a billion dollars to pull out / retrofit the asbestos fireproofing that was originally installed in the twin towers.
I just follow evidence as it gets collected and go where it leads.
Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld claim kerosene could disintegrate the twin towers into fine dust in less than an hour, and then have Building 7 fall to dust 8 hours later.
That’s just too much nonsense to swallow whole.
People started calling the World Trade Center a white elephants late 80′s when they found out it was going to cost around $1 billions to remove the asbestos fireproofing from the Twin Towers.
The asbestos removal work was approx. halfway done on the morning of 9/11
Professional help like my father’s PhD in Metallurgical Engineering from a Big-10 University. (since renamed materials science)
I could spell molybdenum in 4th grade. Go away.
lysias…
Take a look at the page about the demolition of the Seattle Kingdome (particularly the concrete roof)
http://www.controlled-demolition.com/seattle-kingdome
It’s not proof anyone did anything, but does prove people knew exactly how to do that
Lool I count 5 Socks in this thread maybe more. One must wonder why one or more of you think it is necessary to create a puppet to pad your stories.
Well thats awesome 1500 so called experts that cant even figure out simple physics. But they sure understand economics well.
Heres some critical thinking that seems to elude you: It will be the ten year mark soon on the 9/11 attacks. I guess no ones taking all those experts seriously. But lets just say for argument sake that they succeeded in getting an new investigation. What good would it do? You guys didnt believe the first one. And assert all kinds of reasons why the first one is invalid. Do you really expect a Government like what you are asserting would have an fair investigation?
Its completely hypocritical to tell us that the country is a dictatorship than turn around and demand it to do something responsible.
Plus how long are we to wait for the experts to file a case? Another decade or two or three? By the time you all get around to doing something everyone that your accusing will be dead of old age.
http://youtu.be/aJS_Mdb5_-k
BTW I count 5 or more SOCKS in this thread. One must wonder why their story needs SOCKS.
Thanks for that name :)
Tip for the day. Have you tried the new app Evernote.
Photographic memory in an internet app. It’s awesome.
One button. Your whole paragraph there went with index tags for 9/11, Dulles, Reichstag Fire.
http://www.evernote.com/
That article was thoroughly debunked itself years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbY5_qtz83M
Looks like you’ve got homework to do.
That’s not just FAIL. That Red Card Penalty Shot FAIL.
New poll released THIS month by Siena College.
http://www.siena.edu/sri/research
The May polling of 643 New Yorkers (including respondents in all of New York City’s five boroughs) by the independent Siena Research Institute shows meaningful levels of doubt and concern regarding the truth about what happened that day, with only 60 percent of New Yorkers ready to “move on”, and 48 percent in favor of the Manhattan District Attorney or New York City Council opening a new investigation into the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7.
The poll finds:
• 1 in 3 New Yorkers were unaware of Building 7’s collapse (the skyscraper was not hit
by an airplane; it collapsed seven hours after the Twin Towers), only 25 percent have
ever seen video footage of the collapse, and 86 percent were unable to name the building;
• Of those aware of Building 7’s collapse, 24 percent believe it was a controlled
demolition that brought the building down, 23 percent are unsure, and 49 percent believe
it was caused by fires;
• 36 percent of all respondents are inclined to believe critics who argue against the
government’s explanation that the collapse was caused by fires, including a group of
1,500 architects and engineers who say no steel-framed skyscraper has ever succumbed
to fire. Forty percent are inclined to believe the government’s account, and 23 percent
are unsure;
• 48 percent of those polled are in favor of a new investigation into Building 7’s
collapse, compared to 44 percent opposed and 8 percent who don’t know or refused to
answer.
• 28 percent — more than 1 in 4 — believe the Twin Towers were brought down with
explosives or some other demolition devices in addition to being hit by airplanes.
• In sum, 36 percent say they are “not satisfied that we know the whole truth about that
day, and it is time to get to the bottom of what happened,” versus 60 percent who ten
years later say they are “satisfied that we understand well enough what happened and it’s
time to move on.”
ARGGG!
Steel SOFTENS at much lower temperatures! I’m not a mechanical engineer (obviously either are you) but I am pretty sure it’s a relatively linear progression.
Please stop using “sound bites” (incomplete information to the point of inaccuracy) as physical “facts”.
That doesn’t mean they knew exactly what was going to happen or where, (they would have just moved him somewhere in DC or the suburbs if they did), they just knew when.
Yeah, engineering and physical science is really dictated by laymen polling.
If the physical world was so responsive to public opinion, then why didn’t the world end a few weeks ago when so many people believed it would?
That we eventually learned as much as we have about the JFK assassination is the result of Douglas P. Horne being a leading staffer on the Assassination Records Review Board, the third official investigation, created by an Act of Congress 29 years after the assassination, and concluding its work 35 years after it. Horne’s five-volume work, detailing his evidence and conclusions, was published 46 years after the assassination.
If they knew WHEN, that means they probably knew a lot more.
I find it truly bizarre that you dare to speak of “rampant conspiracy mongering” in the face of the conspicuous and blatant lying about 911 that has gone on for a decade now, as if to shift the blame from those who lied to those who sought the truth. And what horrible, evil and monstrously irresponsible “conspiracy theory mongering” did you have in mine? Are you referring to extensive evidence of explosives in the WTC and controlled demolition? Or are you thinking of more surreal notions, such as small nuclear weapons having been used in the towers? And how bizarre is such a theory, in fact, when the US military establishment has been pursuing the holy grail of small nukes for decades now? I say YOU are the bizarre one, if you claim that the idea of small nukes having been used is just beyond any rational consideration. In fact, I believe that such notions, while probably wrong, are not witless at all, in view of reports of sustained EXTREMELY high temperatures in the WTC basements for weeks. Or is it the claims that remote control might have been used that you find so horrific and reprehensibly clownish? REally? In the era when warfighting is increasingly done by drone, you DARE claim that the idea of remote control of airplanes is insane – if that’s what you are doing?
No, seriously, what are these KRAZY theories that you say have been “mongered”? And how exactly are they more insane than the official story? I think YOU need to overcome your reflexive need to believe what authorities tell you, and I find it shameful that even a supposedly cutting edge ‘truthtelling’ reporter like you sucks up to authority and bashes truthers.
Yeah. We missed you.
“That article was thoroughly debunked itself years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbY5_qtz83M
Looks like you’ve got homework to do”
That didnt debunk anything. But it was expected that you would go there with Griffins pseudoscience.
BTW I did my homework and turned it in a long time a go.
http://www.pwri.go.jp/eng/ujnr/joint/35/paper/71sakumo.pdf
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-3DDraft.pdf
http://www.civil.umaine.edu/cie111/images/steel.gif
http://www.civil.umaine.edu/cie111/tension/
“Fires are another cause of failures in steel-framed structures. If the steel framing is not protected by fire-resistant materials, heat from the fire will raise the temperature of the steel above its yield point. Once the steel yields, it will no longer be able to carry the loads it was designed for, and deformation or collapse of the structure will occur.”
snip
“Steel frame construction can be damaged by explosions that are within or without the structure. In this case, the cause of the structural damage can be from the blast shock waves or from flying debris. These are usually significant events where the cause of the structural failure is known.” http://www.donan.com/steel-frame-construction-failure
Everyone saw the explosions. There was obviously enough force in those explosions to remove sprayed on foam insulation.
“1.1.6 Behaviour of Steel Structures in Fire
As previously mentioned, steel loses strength and stiffness at high temperature levels just like any other building materials. Although the effective yield stress for design purposes, generally is taken as zero at 1200 0C, in actuality the yield value does not fall to zero unless the steel reaches its melting point, 1550 0C. This melting point hardly will be reached in building fires. Although the steel is a non-combustible material itself, it has a high heat conducting value, which adversely affects the structural performance during a fire exposure. That is why it is important to create a fire design for the steel buildings.”
http://www.livingsteel.org/structural-safety-3
Video from the collapse of WTC 1& 2 shows plainly that the upper portions above the impacts broke off and fell onto the lower still standing structures. This fact cannot be disputed. The combined weight of those falling upper floors above impact far exceeded the design constraints of the remaining structure’s.
But the tops need to first break off. And it has been well established that the integrity of the steel itself was compromised. But to prove my point even further heres some more of my “homework”.
“1.3.2 Design of Steel Member Assemblies Exposed to Fire
Related code regulations necessitate structural members to have a sufficient fire resistance. There are two approaches used for a fire resistant building design: prescriptive and performance-based systems. The prescriptive approach defines a fire resistant design by using the materials and geometric shape of the building members, composition and the thickness of the protective materials, the member assembly details and so on. In general, the design code recommendations are prepared in relation to previously performed fire tests which work very well for most of the cases concerning static building loads. However, this approach has some restrictions regarding some detailed architectural applications. On the other hand, performance-based applications are effectively used, especially concerning the lateral loads caused by wind and earthquakes. Regarding this method, structural performance of the building members are tested and measured under the effect of a fire in order to observe the capacity of the structure to resist the acting loads during the fire. Although it is primarily aimed to have a well-done structural fire design that will enable the whole structure to resist flames, it is not possible to isolate a fire-exposed, and thus excessively heated, structural member from the other building parts with which it is interconnected. Therefore, it is an important issue to evaluate the fire resistance of a structural building assembly correctly. Fire resistance tests, heat simulation models, critical temperature methods, approximate calculation models and use of design tables and empirical approaches are examples of the evaluation methods used for steel building fire design. Standard fire resistance tests are conducted over the structural assemblies, while loaded with design building loads. It is an observed fact that a critical temperature can be reached between 450 0C to 650 0C. Various software programs also can be supplied and used in fire related structural design that conduct thermal and physical simulations which consider different failure modes in relation to various fire scenarios”
5. What is the behavior of structural steel under a fire effect?
“Structural steel loses strength and stiffness at high temperature levels, like any other building materials. Although steel is a non-combustible material, it has a high heat conducting value, which adversely affects the structural performance during fire exposure. The structural strength of steel decreases by as much as half at temperature of 600 degrees Celsius. That is why it is important to address an effective steel building fire design.
1.5 Related References and Fire Safety Codes
EN 1993-1-2 Eurocode 3 – Design of Steel Structures – Structural Fire Design.
EN 1994-1-2 Design of Composite Structures – Structural Fire Design.
worldsteel Publication, “International Fire Engineering Design for Steel Structures”, 1993
ECCS Publication, “Calculation of the Fire Resistance of Centrally Loaded Composite Steel-Concrete Columns Exposed to the Standard Fire”, Publication 55, 1988.
ECCS Publication, “Calculation of the Fire Resistance of Composite Concrete Slabs with Profiled Steel Sheet Exposed to the Standard Fire”, 1984.”
http://www.livingsteel.org/structural-safety-5
DO you want me to prove your wrong even more? I could go on and prove Griffin wrong point by point if you wish.
So at about 1,112 degrees Fahrenheit steel looses half its strength. Aluminum’s melting point is 660.32 °C (1,220.576 F)
It was observed and documented that there was liquid aluminum flowing out of the impact site. So the steel was less then half its designed strength. Those are facts that cannot be disputed. The fact that Griffin misses this simple logic of physics disqualifies him as an expert on this subject.
Like I said I already handed in my homework. But you havent yet. You only linked an lecture that lacked any real science.
Griffin just went on and on parroting conspiracy theories he never even touch the subject of physics. All the lecture was is him saying ‘I am an expert believe me!’. I guess he learned that when he was studying theocracy.
“No, seriously, what are these KRAZY theories that you say have been “mongered”?”
Just pick any theory past or present that the so called truth movement promotes. Or it could be the theories about nuclear explosions aliens or flying spheres or my favorite faked broadcasts.
Heres the rub though. You dont need any theories to argue for another investigation. You only need to disprove enough of the original investigation to warrant an new one. But there lies the truth movements problem, they havent proved enough to warrant an new investigation. Instead they go on about silly theories that have no science to back the theories.
In fact the truth movement has been stagnant from its conception.
Douglas P. Horne didnt change the official account of what happened to Kennedy in any way shape or form.
The homework you turned in is a proven LIE!
Fires Have NEVER Caused Skyscrapers to Collapse
Excepting the three 9-11 collapses, no fire, however severe, has ever caused a steel-framed high-rise building to collapse. Following are examples of high-rise fires that were far more severe than those in WTC 1 and 2, and Building 7. In these precedents, the fires consumed multiple floors, produced extensive window breakage, exhibited large areas of emergent flames, and went on for several hours. The fires in the WTC towers did none of these things….
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/fires.html
Fires Have NEVER Caused Skyscrapers to Collapse
Excepting the three 9-11 collapses, no fire, however severe, has ever caused a steel-framed high-rise building to collapse. Following are examples of high-rise fires that were far more severe than those in WTC 1 and 2, and Building 7. In these precedents, the fires consumed multiple floors, produced extensive window breakage, exhibited large areas of emergent flames, and went on for several hours. The fires in the WTC towers did none of these things….
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/fires.html
For the ungodly one, NISTs 8 stories freefall is no theory. It is official record. Molybdenum microspheres@5000˚+ is no theory – LEE or FEMA or Geological Survey recorded them. Evaporated and vaporized steel. no theory. FEMAfact. Molten pools. Any eyewitness testimony AT ALL discussing explosive events redacted not included in any official report…that’s no theory.
Within the ‘sophisticated skeptic’ responses of our day, argument tends toward JUSTIFYING the conspiracy commission theory one way or the other, in a ‘It never Happened’ reality reversal epitomized by agent Frields in the Behrooz Sharsar Testimony.
WRONG!
Steel does NOT soften at 550 degrees F. That’s a lie. I already cover that upthread! READ WHAT IS POSTED! If steel softened at 550 degrees the doors on your oven at home made out of the exact same steel would warp get stuck every time you used it.
Jet Fuel/Kerosene burns at 550.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene_lamp
People used them as reading lamps in the late 19th and early 20th as reading lamps in their homes.
The molybdenum microspheres finding is what turned me from a skeptic to a true believer.
As I mentioned up thread, my dad made designed specialty chrome-moly alloys for a living. I joke about being able to spell “molybdenum” in 4th grade
By the way… I had lost the favorite links I had on the Federal sources for the molybedenum found at ground zero in a hard drive reformat I had to do.
If you still have the links and could post them, that would be really awesome. :)
“Excepting the three 9-11 collapses, no fire, however severe, has ever caused a steel-framed high-rise building to collapse. Following are examples of high-rise fires that were far more severe than those in WTC 1 and 2, and Building 7. In these precedents, the fires consumed multiple floors, produced extensive window breakage, exhibited large areas of emergent flames, and went on for several hours. The fires in the WTC towers did none of these things….
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/fires.html”
And none of those examples meets the criteria to be a comparable event to any of the WTC collapses. The building materials and building techniques were hugely different.
Nice try but no dice.
“The homework you turned in is a proven LIE!” The links I provided excluding the extra credit NIST report were not realted to the investigation OF the WTC failures.
Do you remember that overpass in Oakland that collapsed? Well guess what? It was fire that was the cause.
“2007-04-29 18:03:00 PDT OAKLAND — Huge leaping flames from an exploding gasoline tanker melted the steel underbelly of a highway overpass in the East Bay’s MacArthur Maze early this morning, causing it to collapse onto the roadway below and virtually ensuring major traffic problems for weeks to come.
The elevated roadway that fell carried eastbound traffic from the Bay Bridge onto Interstates 580 and 980 and state Highway 24. It draped like a blanket over a roadway below, a connector from southbound I-80 to I-880 that also was severely damaged” http://articles.sfgate.com/2007-04-29/bay-area/17239903_1_tanker-truck-roadway-firefighters
SO lets see steel melted from the intense gasoline fire.
Now lets look at the WTC. We have all that Jet A fuel which is a type of kerosene based fuel. There is such a thing as ‘kerosene blow torches’. Now we have a giant hole in these two building the elevator shafts permanently opened and a natural wind blowing and boom you have a huge ‘kerosene blow torch’. On top of the jet fuel there were other materials in the building to burn. Add it all together and you have heat. This heat was directly on the core supports and the outer structural parts. It wasnt just a few minutes. How much did the floors above the impact zones weigh?
Come on you can do better throw something hard at me lets try those metallurgy topics. Yes I challenge you to explain what it would take to collapse the WTC buildings with fire.
Dont comeback with that silly ‘but these other buildings didnt collapse’ they are irrelevant since none were hit by jets. Which added much more of an volatile fire situation then a normal building fire.
But The Windsor Building Fire did collapse. Not entirely because of the different building techniques. But LARGE portions indeed did collapse.
“Steel does NOT soften at 550 degrees F. That’s a lie.”
Damn you use a lie to argue something you call a lie.
Steel looses its tinsel strength as temperatures rise. At 550 degrees F steel has lost near a third of its strength.
Stop making up shit to suit your claims..
Every oven in every apartment/home in America can be set to 550 degrees F.
FACT.
The vast majority of household oven in the USA are made of steel.
FACT.
Every single one of those steel ovens all across America holds it’s structural integrity at 550 degrees F every single day.
FACT.
Every single one of those steel ovens is fitted with a DOOR.
If steel’s structural integrity could be effected by 550 degree F temperature, the steel doors on those steel ovens all across America would get stuck either open or closed when that steel started warping.
FACT.
You are clearly not a mechanical engineer, John.
FACT.
What part of an highway overpass looks like a skyscraper to you?
Anybody who thinks Douglas P. Horne didn’t depart from the official account of the JFK assassination must not have read his work.
And how much weight is the oven itself inside of the insulation supporting?
You are not addressing the physics at all. Ovens are designed to to allow for the metal the expands and contracts. You should do some research on why metal expands and contracts.
“You are clearly not a mechanical engineer, John.”
You John no nothing about metal. The hinges for one are outside of the oven and like I said there is no load or stress on the metal inside the oven.
Your grasping at straws and showing that you have no knowledge of what you are talking about. Matter of FACT you seem to know nothing about metallurgy at all.
You have discredited you entire argument by not understanding the basics of oven manufacturing. This on top of basic basic understanding of metallurgy and the well known and documented fact the steel looses strength with increased high temperatures.
You seem to be asserting that steel stays the exact same strength up until it melts. This is just plain ignorant to go against known metallurgic basic of all basics.
BTW I am an master welder and a Blacksmith (lol among other things) you are way over your head. Try taking out the inside shell from an oven heat it to 500 degrees F. then place 200 pounds on it.
But I am convinced that you dont care about what the reality of physics dictates do you?
You failed please retake this class when you are better educated in metallurgy…
How convenient. I dont believe you since griffins site has about 20 links to the pseudoscience that he was involved with. There is an complete PDF there as well.
BTW my uncle flew helicopters but that doesnt mean that I can.
And if you were really knowledgeable about metals than you would understand how those spheres were made.
First the ‘story’ was that it was just thermites. The ‘story’ was shown that even if it was thermite that never in the entire day would it cut through the beams. So out came the nano-thermite story. But there isnt any proof of nano-thermites at all.
So the conundrum for the truthers is to keep parroting the ‘story’ and just act like it is real. Or to move on to the next ‘story’. I have noticed some elements of the truth movement distancing themselves form griffin as of lately.
BTW I debunk truthers for sport. But I needed something more challenging than a bunch of parrots with no real brains of their own. Extra credit if you can name which subject I moved on too.
And you really need some extra credit after failing my class
Try harder Adam503 Make Oregon proud :P
If your uncle threw you out of his helicopter without a parachute from 1000 feet, something which, by nature of your responses he probably considered, the speed your flapping useless body fell at would be the SAME speed as building 7 for exactly 2.25 seconds. Freefall. 2.5s actually, but NIST gets given a quarter second bone.
NO RESISTANT freefall.
That behemoth had 81 vertical columns, a complex network welded bolted beam and girder into a steel MASS totally built in RESISTANCE to freefall.
Of which eight stories ALL had to be removed at ONE instant to allow it. Now. Ask around. how such a mass of steel can suddenly ‘not be there’ in a second to allow that drop to occur.
Explain how those micro spheres were made! Explain how those microspheres got there in such QUANTITY. Keep it short to satisfy the parrot brains, but substantiate your claim.
The PROOF of the nanothermate is IN the PAPER.
Until YOU or anyone cojones up enough to produce a paper by the SAME scientific/academic PROCESS – open to further peer review in an open science journal countering the SCIENCE saying the Thermitic material WAS PRESENT., which will then be subject to science peer review itself – until then the Paper STANDS and nothing you say about it means a damn.