Right now on on this web site there are at least two Obama diaries at odds with each other. One skewers Obama, and the other piles on the admiration. The same occurs in discussions about Ron Paul. The comments on each are a fury of emotions. Twenty years of counseling have put me in the middle of this very dynamic on many occasions, so I know the dynamic and it’s consequences very well. But…there is a recovery path to take. What has happened here, happens in many homes.
As the wife of an alcoholic, a trauma survivor myself married to another trauma survivor, let me tell you that there are a host of skills we could be using that would decrease the damage to one and another and elevate the truth. It would require understanding some new terms, practicing some new skills and trying a new paradigm. This journey is the same one taken by families dealing with autism, alcoholism, Parkinson’s, Brain tumors and mental illness. This is a journey we are meant to take. What if the paradox of Obama is not meant to destroy us? What if these very real differences in perception are meant to cause a change in us?
There is very real fear in each side of the Obama argument. The dialectic is a form of argumentation producing a type of logic that is spiral rather than inductive or deductive in nature. The dialectic is currently being used in a therapy called Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT). This type of argumentation helps to confront the double binds of black and white thinking…the kind of thinking fueled by emotion and often found in the destructive threads of these diaries. An important part of this journey would be to understand the emotion behind each side of the argument. Those supporting Obama very strongly are “afraid” that he will not be re-elected and even worse that a republican will be in charge. These folks likely remember the Bush years with terror, and there is truth to that fear. The anti Obama folks have fear too. Both sides fear invalidation and not being heard. Meanwhile the anti Obama folks fear that no one is seeing an erosion of rights, and a support of the corporate corruption being seen as perpetuated or helped by Obama’s policies and behaviors. Both sides fear losing the “American Dream”. When there is strong emotion, there is black and white thinking. There will be more judgments and more theory.
When we work the dialectic we acknowledge truth on both ends of the polar. We make a commitment to the notion that nothing in the universe is truly “black or white”. We accept the journey to synthesis the truth at each end of the polar argument. We learn to find a kernel of truth in each end of every polarity. Just as there is non truth in each end of every polarity. Both sides carry truth, both sides carry non truth.
Obama is not bad or good. He is both. The key to synthesis is to be able to confront, and lay out the truths on each side of each polarity. There are many polarities to be explored here. Corrupt and not corrupt. Progressive, not progressive. Accountable, not accountable. Synthesis requires developing the skills to argue more than one side of the argument. This produces a paradigm shift. It produces the ability to acknowledge an opposing view with respect. It produces dedication and commitment to synthesis over taking a polar stand. Synthesis is about doing what works, in this moment, given the truth and non truths of each polarity.
If we continue to seek “right” over synthesis of truth, we will destroy opposing factions. We will have to destroy or refuse to recognize certain elements of the truth. The key word for using the dialectic is “and”. This argument AND that. “And” replaces “OR”.
My husband is an alcoholic. His childhood had some trauma much like mine. His behaviors while drinking hurt me. And yet, I understood him. Peace came to me, by managing the polarities. The truths. I had to be able to acknowledge the real value of him in my life, and the real cost. I had to be able to balance the real harm of staying with him and the real harm of leaving him. In my case, confronting the truth of each end of the polarity resulted in more effective and honest interaction with his disease. It helped me put an end to denial, resentments and rage. It helped me learn to do what works, facing my fears, my denial instead of trying to change his.
The issue of Obama is much the same way for me. We could likely argue ways that he is the best president and ways that he is the worst. There is truth in each end of that discussion. He is a mixture of both. He has done “good” things. He has done “bad” things. He has done “positive” things and “harmful” things. And the same argument could likely be made about every other president in history. The idea is to avoid an argument about who is “right” or “wrong” and understand that both positions have truth. In this discussion about Obama there is synthesis. We have to accept certain truths. He exists. He is currently in office. We begin with a list of truths…facts. We extend the facts as far into each polar as we can. We look for effectiveness over right or wrong or any polar position. We look for an idea about what will work. He is progressive in this way and not in this way. The synthesis may be different for each person. We don’t all have to agree to interact with these polarities in the same way. We can choose what works for us.
When dealing with alcoholic families or families where there is a severe disability like autism. Oftentimes, the first discussion is about staying or leaving the person perceived to be causing the pain. It is as if these two positions are the only two that exist. We either put him in a home or keep him. We kick him out or keep him. We put him in treatment or keep him. We change him or keep him. In many cases “keep him” requires change him. But in reality what works is to stop needing to change the other person, and to change ourselves to meet the truth of the situation. So with autism it might mean facing a truth about the amount of change that is possible and confronting that truth with more tolerance and effectiveness. With alcoholism it might mean facing a truth about trying to change an alcoholic.
It first means that we must accept what is. What is really true. When we are busy defending a position over seeking truth, we will often times only allow “truth” or the polar truths that support our end of the polar. Leaving or staying is a polarity. So the truth about staying, the truth about leaving will bring an different perspective than…we should stay with Obama or leave Obama. We should stay with Obama AND leave Obama. The synthesis is how we choose to interact with the polarities in an Obama administration. It focuses on what we WILL do in response to the kernels of truth in each polarity. Not on arguing one side over another.
In my work as a counselor, many families have learned to stop focusing on the question of leave or stay, and have found a synthesis for what is. In that synthesis they have found peace for themselves and the family. In my case, my husband drank through almost two years as the family “stayed” facing the truth of his disease. We stopped denying and started dealing with the reality of the disease by seeking effectiveness over leaving or staying. This required learning to do things that were often uncomfortable. Not leaving the kids with him instead of trying to get him to promise to stay sober. Refusing to let him drive the vehicle that was in my name. (no matter how angry he got.) Learning to leave the house to prevent an argument and to do it with my children in mind instead of my emotions driving. So, with happiness, a trip to the store with the kids. (for them) He eventually quit drinking. My work synthesizing the reality of his disease was a lesson for me in truth and consequences. That journey was a blessing while the journey of trying to change him or leave him only produced emotions, chaos and sorrow.
The journey led by truth and synthesis did require my learning new skills but at every level it was obvious that the change required in me was for the best in the long run, not only for me, but for my children to witness. This is what happens when we focus on synthesis over imaginary static positions at the polar end of a discussion.
Many families are facing these types of scenarios. This is part of the design of the human experience. We can let it destroy us, destruct us, cause us to behave in ways we know don’t really work, cause us to act out of emotion, forsaking our rationality AND we can seek resolution, seek truth over righteousness, effectiveness over argumentation, empowerment over destruction.
There is synthesis in those difficult threads. The word “destructive” was used at the top of the page, but as this diary ends, we could instead discuss how these diaries can be “instructive” as well as destructive. Not “or” but “and”.
(Cross posted on DKOS)



55 Comments

Dialectical?
If by that you mean giving the backstabber a free pass on the 50 to 1 ratio of “good” to “bad?”
No freaking way…
In the same manner of not giving your husband the keys to the car with your kids in it, handing him your wallet and then asking him to drop by the liquor store to pick up a bottle of vodka for later that night.
Now if you were talking about the dielectrical approach, wherein electrodes would be attached to very sensitive areas and a voltage applied, I’d have to consider it because of well, you know, and eye for an eye and all that. I have to admit though, I couldn’t go through with it because unlike the facade in chief, I’m not a Pentagon puppet.
I meant to say “bad” to “good”. I should’ve just borrowed Southern Dragon’s “a couple of cherries on a pile of horseshit” expression. That sums up the presididn’t's “contributions” pretty well.
As the parent of a severely disabled child, much of what you say makes sense to me. The weakness that I cannot get past in your exposition is simply that I would not treat an employee or a service contractor the same way I would treat a family member.
Would you be as accommodating of a doctor hired to treat your autistic child as you would be with a spouse or the child himself?
In voting for Obama, I essentially hired him to do a job based on what he said about himself. He has not done the job I hired him to do and in too many cases he has done the exact opposite.
I shall not renew his contract.
Your approach makes sense if you have a relationship that you not only believe can be salvaged, but also believe is worth salvaging. In Obama’s case, the answer is no and no.
Echoing Coach Bill, Obama is an employee who took his paycheck and then stabbed us in the back and robbed us blind.
I’d like nothing more than for Obama to climb on a drone and do his best Major Kong impersonation.
wavpeac, I fail to see how the aim of resolving the problem between two ‘opposite’ views of Obama is to do the least harm to one another – which I gather would be not hurting one another’s feelings, coming away with a ‘middle ground’ assessment which doesn’t damage the relationship we have with one another, that sort of thing.
That’s fine when we’re discussing politics over the Christmas turkey or the New Year’s ham and we don’t want to raise the blood pressure unduly of our elderly relatives.
Very fortunately, that is not what happens on these forums, nor should it. Here, we are respectful, we are polite. We do not back down or concede unless we really see another’s point. This is not about doing damage to a relationship; this is about getting at the truth and there IS truth in this matter.
I had New Year’s dinner at a delightful elderly friend’s house. We all talked politics, and I put in my points, but not as strongly as I do here. I put them in as firmly but gently as I could, the main thing being to be thankful for the generously offered meal. We agreed a lot, but on the one point we did not, and that was pro or anti Obama. I, much as I loved my host, did have to firmly disagree with her opinion, and I think she did not have the advantage I have – she is not a reader here at FDL. I don’t want anyone pulling their punches; rational argument is what is here to be found, opinions based on facts. As per the above.
And incidentally what the heck does the following mean anyway?
“We should stay with Obama AND leave Obama.”
Oh, I see – at least, this is how I interpret it – “We should stay with the Obama we thought we were electing and leave the one we got.”
Okay, will do.
Same here!
You don’t need a relationship we use the dialectic to help people resolve issues with bosses…companies…grocery stores. The idea is to be able to see the polarities in a given situation. Then you argue the truth in each side…it lends to flexible thinking and solutions that are outside of what you could see in your black and white thinking. Truth is that nothing on this earth is black and white or absolute. Even Jeffrey Dahlmer carried a message that we needed to hear. Perhaps Obama is not meant to destroy us but to change us. The idea is to be willing to consider the truth in both side of any given polarity related to Obama. He’s good for the country…he’s bad for the country. He upheld the constitution he changed the constitution…he killed people he saved people. The idea is to get a well rounded view of the truth. It’s not about compromise…it’s about jazz. Unstructured, but structured. Disciplined vs undisciplined. predictable vs unpredictable.
hounds tooth vs…gray..
Find the truth and be willing to argue all sides. If you are not…you will see your emotional attachment…your judgments, your biases.
Attach to nothing…see the truth where it exists… find solutions that are more effective…
not about salvaging…about interacting effectively. What will work…what is effective given the truths on both ends of “he is good, he is bad.” if you can’t see both sides you are missing part of the truth…because you are attached to your emotion.
I’m sorry, but you are confusing me more with each new thing you write.
Are you saying that because Jeffrey Dahmer “carried a message that we needed to hear” that I should be willing to meet him somewhere in the middle in some type of effort at understanding him? Fine. But that doesn’t mean I would have wanted him to be freed from jail where he could ever have a chance of ever committing a heinous act again.
And that is how I feel about Obama. I understand him well enough to know that I do not want to see him get reelected. I’d like to see him in jail, but barring that, I want him on the lecture circuit seeking presidential library donations where he can do infinitesimally less harm to this country and the world.
That is a very effective solution for me.
“…see the truth where it exists……”
I have no opportunity to talk to or reason with Obama. I have no ability to influence him whatsoever. The only person whose actions I have any control over are my own. So I can either vote for Obama or vote for somebody else.
I voted for Obama over HRC and McCain based on what he said. I will not vote for him again based on what he has done. It is not so much about good and bad as it is about trust. I do not trust him.
I always thought that while HRC and McCain had done some good things and some bad things, they had least done some things, but as you say all Obama had done is to talk about himself… he had never done anything. I never could understand how Americans could vote for somebody who had no objective record of ever doing anything. Minds softened by television? Later on when this hunch has proved correct, I wrote the following:
http://seaton-newslinks.blogspot.com/2011/04/fairy-tale-as-grim-as-grimm-could-ever.html
wavpeac, there is no polarity with regard to Obama. Many of us have already admitted sadly that we voted for Obama thinking him to be what he clearly was not. We thought he was good when we voted for him. His actions have shed light upon that mistake. We would be only too happy to realize that it wasn’t a mistake but sadly it was a mistake of grievous proportions.
The only ‘good’ thing about what he has done has been a slick charm with words to bamboozle the ignorant into hoping he means what they hope he means – he does that consistently. There is no real good in that, or we would not have our young (and some way stronger than me old) out on the streets protesting and really putting their lives at risk. This man is not a drunkard with the possibility of reform – he is up to his elbows in the blood of innocents; he has tortured Bradley Manning and wants to be able to incarcerate other Americans without trial – dear God, the trail of tears stretches back and forward as far as the mind can take it.
Please, please wake up. I can’t speak for his personal salvation but that’s not what we are talking about here – we are talking about letting this man continue his bloody binge a further four years. We cannot be responsible for doing that; we cannot!
I think you demean that legitimate effort to have a real dialogue – not dialectic but a confrontational argument with someone who has persistently avoided doing what would benefit the country as a whole instead of the rich few who increasingly push the rest of us around and worse.
Perhaps you could flesh out your idea of polarity – which means to define that good opposite pole we are finding it so hard to envision. What exactly is the good Obama we should be holding onto? The one who presumably is waiting to be born in a second term? In your dreams!
I have a question. Would you have argued the same leniency towards Bush? If not, why not?
I cannot vote for this man ever again.
By the way, I also disagree with your comment that the discussions of this or that candidate’s pros and cons are ‘a fury of emotions.’ I see some rational assessments going on – people who really want to do the right thing and are facing the facts. As Harry Belafonte said when Obama asked ‘Why don’t you cut me some slack?’ The answer is, ‘What makes you think we haven’t?’
The American people have cut Obama slack and then some.
Enough already.
If you remember, David, some reputable folk wiser than any of us were also taken in by this man and supported him at the outset, seeing great potential. He had several things in his favor: his opposition (we thought) to the policies of the previous administration; his work with low income people in Chicago; his qualifications as a Constitutional scholar; and finally very importantly his and his young family’s representation of hope and advancement with respect to the black community. I still have a hard time understanding how he could undermine that latter responsibility, but he has done it.
I understand why it is so hard for some to understand that this is the case even now – they are not stupid. They simply had cherished such great hopes for this man and his potential that it is unbearably hard to give up on that hope. I wish they would not be castigated; it isn’t their fault. The fault lies with the man who has let them down so badly.
It was a betrayal of the first order.
I think by little fable explains it pretty well. http://seaton-newslinks.blogspot.com/2011/04/fairy-tale-as-grim-as-grimm-could-ever.html
Americans have become addle-brained through the celebrity culture.
In short the greatest bait and switch job in the history of marketing.
I’m having trouble seeing what it is you are really saying Can you answer the following questions?
Who should be interacting with?
Why would I want to interact with them?
Who defines this effective interaction you speak of?
Which side is it that I can’t see and what part of the truth am missing?
Barack Obama has repeatedly used hand gestures with regards to the electorate. I see no reason I shouldn’t extend the courtesy and my middle finger towards him as well.
He should have been more careful about punching us “retarded DFHs.”
Look, you demonstrate my point when you say there is no polar to Obama. This is “emotion mind”. You feel strongly but your feelings do not represent the facts. The fact that you are unaware of this…makes your opinions, feelings…once sided…and less representative of truth in general.
There is a polar for everything and everyone on this earth…there is a polar position for med flies, for mold, for bacteria…there are polarities about Obama…which is why there is so much controversy.
Again…you are arguing with a black and white stance. There has been considerable emotion and vitriol on these threads…and there has been considerable rational assessment. There has been both. Not one or the other. Your black and white thinking is showing…and when we think black and white we are thinking with our more primitive brain. We lose the very real shades of truth.
Sometimes my husband will get anxious believing that China is soon to take over our country. He’s got an anxiety disorder and meets criteria for paranoia. Sometimes he is very convincing. The dead give away however, is that he cannot consider the polar to his position. It’s too emotional for him to consider that his truth might not be the only truth. I can go so far as to consider that…there are happy people in china…celebrating births, living life! It’s not necessarily the end of life as we know it even if his worst fears WERE true.
The dialectic takes us out of emotion mind and makes us more effective in dealing with reality.
It’s not about talking to Obama or changing him. We can’t change someone else. It’s about your own journey with truth.
…you are arguing with a black and white stance….
I don’t think we are arguing so much from a black and white stance as we are facing a black and white choice. Next November we get to vote. One vote for one man. I will vote for a candidate that most exemplifies my values or who I think is most likely to advance my agenda.
It will be election day, not judgement day. I am a voter not Obama’s biographer. In the end, we are discussing an action and that action is digital. Yes or no, aye or nay, up or down.
There are many options to influences the political state of affairs besides voting. It’s not a binary choice…it’s not vote for Obama don’t vote for Obama. There are many other options…such as who you fund or donate time to, protesting, trying to change election campaign rules. It’s not as black and white as you are treating it. To behave as if it’s the end of the free world if Obama wins…is only fooling yourself…it’s not reality. There will be more work to do no matter who gets in. We are not done and we should be thinking about more than just voting.
“We are not done and we should be thinking about more than just voting.
You chose Obama as the subject of your article, Many of us have chosen to move on. We are doing many of the things you suggest… for somebody else.
When I read the diarist’s words out loud, these are the calm and mellifluous voices I hear. ;o)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KG270NsYn0&feature=related
My friend (co facilitator) and I used to do them in our groups just for laughs…we would do the schwedy balls skit…
That said..it amazes me how people say they want peace but have a complete disconnect about how to get there. It’s more than saying you want it…it’s learning to live it in the way you think and interact with the world. It’s not a destination but a means by which to get there.
Peace is not a relationship of nations. It is a condition of mind brought about by a serenity of soul. Peace is not merely the absence of war. It is also a state of mind. Lasting peace can come only to peaceful people.
Jawaharlal Nehru
It’s fine if you have chosen to move on…you may not be the only person reading this article…when you say “we” I am not sure who you are speaking for…?? Are you saying your position represents the whole site? Many of us have to decide how we deal with the Obama administration. Your position is one end of the polar…one solution and it has it’s truth, but it’s not the only viable, or intelligent valid solution.
Wavpeace
I am in recovery. I understand what you are trying to say. So let me tell you “my truth” in what you are proposing.
You are proposing that people who suffer from BPDS Battered Progressive Democrat Syndrome should give their abuser a break. Some “understanding” where he comes from. That we the battered should return to our batterer who has shown nothing that he has changed.
Oh sure, now that he needs us we get nice words, flowery rhetoric and even a few nice baubles. But we all know this cycle well do we not? Once the tension mounts (arrghh look Rick Santorium) then we shall be told, yet again “shut up bitch, can you not see the pressure I am under? Then a slap to keep us in line.
So, if an abuser has proven he can and will change, then there is “hope and change” (sounds familiar?) However, if the abuser does not change and in fact shows signs of the opposite, increasing his abusive behavior, would you recommend the abused one stay? In real life?
Or would you recommend she leave her abuser and build a new life, free from the toxic environment of shame, neglect and abuse? Where she may even find a new person to make her life happy?
So why are you trying to make progressives stay with this abuser? Seriously, I strongly recommend that you yourself take a long look at yourself. Or if ya like, Doctor, Heal Thyself.
Fuck Obama and his Democratic Party
Rocky Anderson for president
I believe you said that already, Dave, and offered the same link.
I do love how you sit in Spain and judge us, though. Pretty neat gig if ya can get it.
Nope…not at all. You totally misunderstand. You are stuck in flat land…and the earth is round. I am not at all defending Obama or his policies. I am suggesting that this thread is full of comments that are emotional and biased…primitive in nature. I am encouraging a visit to the frontal lobe with those emotions. I am suggesting a process. Argue how horrible Obama is…fill it with facts. Then argue the value of Obama. Fill it with facts. It’s the process in the brain that creates the change in paradigm. The unwillingness is fascinating to me.
It’s experiential in regard to what it does to your brain to be willing to consider opposites sides of an argument. Then you look for synthesis…what is effective. I can assure you that attacking people, calling them names, using power and control…has it’s consequences. (for Obama and you).
I am writing this for the folks who don’t see exactly the way you do. I am writing this for people who are willing to try a different perspective, a more peaceful one. This might not speak to you…which is fine with me. But I am guessing that many people don’t feel comfortable commenting on threads where this kind of bullying behavior goes on. It’s the antithesis of peaceful. It has it’s value, but it also has a chilling cost.
If you are in recovery…then you would understand that resentments are the fuel for the disease. Seems you are full of resentments. Have you ever thought about how all that black and white thinking and resentment affects your life and the way you see it?
The disease is a disease of black and white thinking…this is one of the biggest symptoms and this symptom is what causes resentments to build up and to eventually lead to relapse.
Serenity…is a non judgmental dialectical place.
I can see that the “dialectical” approach is a valid and valuable way of treating people that are suffering from severe mental problems, but I am not really sure that a sitting president of the United States is a suitable subject for therapy… or if he or she is, whether he/she shouldn’t be “unseated” first. We are talking about the job where famously, “the buck stops here”, so the person, if any person is, should be judged totally responsible for their acts.
Wavpeac if your husband was abusive to you or your children and exhibited dangerous behavior, you would have to leave him, dialectic BS be damned.
This President is abusive. He is lying. He is an operative for the MIC. His appeals to progressives are disengenuous bait and switch schemes. This is emotional BECAUSE it is true, it is not “painting a picture” because of emotion. YOU HAVE IT BACKWARDS.
You refuse to look at yourself and your own behavior. Looking at yourself, taking responsibility and changing is the essence of recovery.
Whether you want to admit it or not, you are attempting to get people (progressives) re-involved in an abusive relationship (Obama and the Dems) Perhaps you can’t even admit it to yourself.
If people want to stay with their abuser, that is fine. They will continue to make rationalizations as to why. Far too many women do stay with their abuser. However, a brave few do. They have the internal courage to leave him, develop a new path free from the destructive relationship.
Those women (and men) are my heroes. My mother was one of them.
Wavpeace. With all due respect I have met people like you my whole life. You are very nice and well meaning. You also have lots of your own unresolved issues which is why you look to help others deal with theirs. It is classic co-dependent behavior. The very best way to not look at your own issues is to lecture others on theirs.
However, in this case it is also destructive. You are actually encouraging people to stay with an abusive relationship. In fact you have obviously decided to stay with the abuser (Obama and the Dems) yourself. Which is why you are so hyper-sensitive. Again classic co-dependent and symptomatic of PTSD.
Dear Doctor- Heal Thyself. Sorry to be so harsh.
But tough love is like that.
Or as asked, would you or did you recommend this during the Bush years? Simple and direct question.
Wavpeac, I seriously am worried that you are numbing yourself into a vegetative state.
There is a lot of gray in the world, but guess what, there is also black and white. If a hammer is descending rapidly in an arc toward your thumb on the table, you can either move it and avoid the smashed digit, or you can imagine how the throbbing might actually have some positive effect on your life, like I don’t know, imagining there is a finite amount of the pain in the universe and you’re voluntarily taking a share of the burden. But that would at once be both emotionally-based nonsense and incredibly stupid.
Take our thumb out of the way, please.
@wavpeac
I didn’t bring the Schweddy on purpose; grossed me out, to say the truth…
“To behave as if it’s the end of the free world if Obama wins…is only fooling yourself…it’s not reality. There will be more work to do no matter who gets in. We are not done and we should be thinking about more than just voting.”
Strawman hyperbole here: ‘end of the free world’. We can still safely name the present state of our civil freedoms, increased indentured servitude to the plutocracy, though, and to what degree Obama has been a key author.
It might be said we survived a Bush second term. It *can* be said that many may survive a second Obama term.
But what we can also project is how many *will not survive* it. The ever-burgeoning homeless population, the million with no or inadequate access to healthy care, the seniors whose Medicaid is being slashed and whose pensions have been decimated, the hundreds upon hundreds of thousands in home foreclosure, whose values were their sole economic futures to fund their retirements or end of years care. And that’s just in this nation; I won’t list the (mainly) brown people around the world who won’t survive his next term.
But your second and third sentences there are spot on. Do you sincerely not see what the democracy movement is about? It is all about standing *outside* electoral politics, and learning and teaching and service and community-building and love, if not peace…at least building consensus where possible.
Change ourselves to change or ‘salvage’…Obama? No.
I sincerely believe that we need a shift in consciousness, but I submit one is happening, and that many more will awaken in the spring…and we will forge ahead with people-power, beginning to trust that many of *us* have better solutions than *they* ever will again.
For far too long, the Good Guys have been afraid of power, abjured it for fear of becoming *Them*, using it poorly or for self-aggrandizing or self-enriching purposes, or for the sheer avarice of power over others.
And it really is pretty funny that Obama is one of the authors of the awakening. Only a Democratic President could have gotten away with betraying us and our Constitutional principles this far without a strong kick in the ass, which rightfully should have been the job of other Democrats. But no; far too many have aided and abetted him for various reasons, and they will also pay the price in the future.
Yep; we have lots of work to do, but a lot of us here are in the process of doing it: building the Occupy movement, rejecting capitalistic greed and the acquisition of material goods, cooperative business models, learning more about sustainable energy and agriculture and water use…so much more.
And not one dot of it requires us to imagine your ‘polar Obama’, which concept seems silly; there are no end to the metrics you can judge anyone by.
So yeppers; a lot of here will simply set the man free, hopefully to do us, our children and grandchildren no further harm. Most all of us will vote, and either vote our consciences or our pragmatism; but boatloads of us will keep working to make others realize that the present form of corrupt electoral politics are increasingly irrelevant, if in fact they aren’t already.
The worst thing my father could say about a thing or person was “it’s no good”. He would then add “that means there is no good in it”. That’s the way I see Obama. I see a torturer, a murderer, a war monger, a liar and a traitor.
I too am “in recovery”. I know I can’t change Obama. And I have learned to think and feel at the same time. If my polar view of Obama was causing problems in my life I would know that what needs to change is me.
You have discovered some tools for healing personal relationships. I have no personal relationship with Obama. Your essay may be a bridge to far.
wavpeac, you say to me:
“Again…you are arguing with a black and white stance. There has been considerable emotion and vitriol on these threads…and there has been considerable rational assessment. There has been both. Not one or the other. Your black and white thinking is showing…and when we think black and white we are thinking with our more primitive brain. We lose the very real shades of truth.”
No, wavpeac, I am not using just my ‘primitive brain’. I am using all parts of my brain. I make a judgment to pass over that aspect of posts which express emotion and vitriol, bearing in mind that when people are hurt, they react with emotion. For me, it is the reasoned argument reaching beyond emotion (but including emotion) that wins the day – along with compassion, which is present in many of the comments here.
You seem to have a dogma that is getting in the way of sensible conversation. It is causing you to make judgments that are not correct. For instance, I have a hard time understanding your use of the term ‘dialectic’ in tandem with ‘polarity’. I relate the first to Platonic dialogues, which travel through conversational byways in search of philosophical truths. The second term, however, seems to contradict the first, being an imagery of the very ‘either-or’ which you seem to decry. So, it’s confusing.
Also, you say:
The dialectic takes us out of emotion mind and makes us more effective in dealing with reality.”
This is not what Platonic dialectic does. It takes us, rather, through the emotional mind and brings that along with it into other explorations. The emotional mind is not something to discard but to control. It, according to Plato, has positive aspects which strengthen the mind as a whole. While it may be ‘primitive’ as in ‘primal’ meaning first, what attends it, which is desire is something the human mind cannot do without. In fact, emotion has a very important role on the philosophical path of enquiry.
Interestingly enough, there is a threefoldness to the mind, not a polarity at all.
I will not vote for Obama again. That is my mindful responsibility as a citizen, not an emotional reaction, not a fearful one, and not one that is unaware of his personal attributes. He did have potential; we saw it and we voted for him. Then, the ball was in his court.
We should have a high bar for the presidency of this country – I don’t meet the qualifications either. I sure hope we can find someone who does before this year fraught with problems and promises ends.
Well said, wendy. Thank you.
No one is telling you to vote for Obama..It blows my mind that in a discussion about the dialectic…my diary is being treated as if this is what is says. I can only imagine…that the reason you keep “hearing” me arguing with your desire not to vote for Obama is because you are coming at this from a black and white position. Not sure where you are getting a Platonic dialectic…that’s added by you, not me. Yes, their is a polarity between emotion and reason. And a dialectical synthesis would be to bring reasoning to the emotional reaction. The idea is to be less mood dependent…to use emotion more effectively. Primitive does refer to primal. No one said we didn’t need emotions…but somewhere you assumed this is what I am saying. The idea is to not get stuck one end of the polar…because the far ends may contain truth, but they are not truth. Truth contains both sides of the dialectic. You choose to completely dismiss the truth in the other side of the dialectic. Which is your right as a human being.
I have simply pointed out where you are being black and white. Judgements are theories…when we stick with a judgment or theory and treat it as fact…we are in emotion mind.
Black and white does not exist in reality. Nothing on this earth is only good or only bad. Only right or only wrong. Only important or only unimportant. Only proper or only improper…
We can do this all day. The facts, science does not support the proposition that you can make a judgment about something on earth as if it sits on the polar end of reality and that this makes it truth.
It’s can be scary to give up on treating judgments as facts. It changes the world view…this is for sure.
All presidents are dangerous. All presidents are not dangerous. All human beings are dangerous. All human beings are safe. Obama is only dangerous…Obama is only safe.
Believe what you want…but you are demonstrating emotion mind…not wise mind (which would be a combination of both emotion with reasoning having confronted the judgments of the emotional part of the brain).
wavpeac, we each come to the conversation using the tools with which we are familiar. The origins of dialectic in Platonism are as I have explained them to you, hoping that would broaden the discussion, not box it in. Not intending to blow your mind whatsoever, in fact you have raised an issue which is important to us all. I was explaining the dialectical course of my own mind-travelling in order to answer your ‘black and white’ charge.
You say:
“Truth contains both sides of the dialectic. You choose to completely dismiss the truth in the other side of the dialectic.”
So, I ask,
What is the truth in the other side of the dialectic which I am completely dismissing?
I think I’m zeroing in on the thrust of your diary; two sentences/assertions/assumptions pinged a bit ago. You said:
“That said..it amazes me how people say they want peace but have a complete disconnect about how to get there.” and:
“Serenity…is a non judgmental dialectical place.”
I can’t even think why you think *peace* is the goal in these discussions.
*Peace negotiations* among nations or factions require beginnings, like ‘What can both sides agree upon?’ and then use those commonalities to build upon. Sometimes *peace* requires Truth and Reconciliation processes to move forward.
*Familes* can use different models, even transactional analysis, there are plenty out there, and defining roles, etc. can be useful…
But if *serenity* is your goal, then entering political discussions may not be for you. I agree with Juliania: emotions and cognitive function are not, nor should they be, separate. Without feelings of love, caring, empathy, anger at injustice, the theft by criminals of our financial futures, the rape of our planet…many of us would not have been political activists for our entire lives. And we have.
It’s kinda sad that some neuro-scientists armed with their fMRI data have leapt to conclusions about who uses which brain parts to inform their thinking, and whose dopamine levels show this or that…it’s all so new, and while there are correlations, they don’t prove causality, IMO.
I agree that some of the comments on threads don’t allow for nuance, and especially consider the messenger over the message; that’s not very rigorous.
But that said, I think your polarity model fails, and it *was* you who said above that *we need to figure out ways to deal with Obama*, or something close to that. You keep movin’ the goalposts, IMO.
Many of us do, in fact, seek ways of regaining some measure of peace once we have chosen to be part of the process, but that’s (at least in my case) because part of our chosen jobs is to bear witness to what our wars have done to our brothers and sisters around the world for insane goals often based on utter lies. And we bear witness to the very hideous processes of our federal (and often state) governments, so we know what needs changed. And sometimes we discover too much to remain *serene*, so we take breaks to go find some equanimity, then come back to fight for our futures. And yours. We pick a side.
Works for me. ;o)
;o) You, too, Juliania.
“The Truth Is Out There”…..and sometimes none of it lies in the polar opposite. ;o)
“Many of us do, in fact, seek ways of regaining some measure of peace…”
Nothing has made me feel more peaceful in the political realm than rejecting “lesser of two evilism”.
Obama’s story is very simple: http://seaton-newslinks.blogspot.com/2011/04/fairy-tale-as-grim-as-grimm-could-ever.html , it was an enormously skillful bait and switch operation perpetrated on a people whose minds have become confused, addled perhaps, by endless “story telling”. Now people have awakened and discovered they have been had. Probably the best attitude to take is that of a woman from Trinidad who lost a lot of money in a swindle there, she reportedly shrugged her shoulders and said, “Is what does cost the intelligence.”
Keep picking sides…it was my diary…the idea was to find a more peaceful approach to discussions about Obama…less black and white. More respect for truth. It didn’t happen on this thread. The dialectic works but no one here was interested in trying. It worked really well on another site. Oh well…I live and learn. It works really well when trauma survivors and addicts want to change the chaos in their lives. I didn’t move the goal posts…it was all stated in my post. This thread got reactive at even the thought of finding positive in Obama…no positive allowed. Only negative. Got it. You don’t want to play. That’s ok. It is what it is.
When the revolution comes, will you choose a side? Or pout that we didn’t ‘play’ however you wanted us to ‘play’?
This is not a parlor game, and we are not all addicts and trauma survivors. Your comment on another thread made me think that is your lens, and see all humans through it.
We are not in chaos so much as this country is; you could have said ‘within every yin there is one dot of yang and vice versa’. You went with polarities, and seem to blame commenters here for rejecting your model and premise.
And these are not even the commenters (in the main) you find on the flame-war threads over Obama and Paul. Some of see merits in Pauls issues, even while we would never vote for him for President.
‘More respect for truth’ seems to equal what *you* regard as truth. Can’t tell how we were supposed to ‘play’, really. I might say, “Well, the man seems to love his daughters.” That sorta thing? Who cares? *Father* was not the job we hired him to do.
Glad for you it worked on the other sites. We are bad ‘uns, ain’ we?
Thank you.
“What is the truth in the other side of the dialectic which I am completely dismissing?”
From the diary:
“He has done “good” things. He has done “bad” things.”
I think that wavpeac is saying that the discussion at MyFDL is almost exclusively about the bad things. On that narrow point, I might have to agree – I can’t think of much written here about the good things that Obama has done. Therein lies the weakness of wavpeac’s approach.
Some time ago this site included a list of Obama’s 200-and-counting antiprogressive policies and actions. People here would discuss his progressive actions if there were some. In fact, Firepups actively supported Obama’s health care proposal right up to the bitter and disappointing end. The reason that the talk here is lopsided is that Obama’s actions have been remarkably one-sided. Furthermore, while this diary advocates looking at both sides of an administration, wavpeac offers no examples of Obama’s progressive actions.
There must be a few things about the current administration that progressives can like, but those things are vastly outnumbered by the administration’s troublesome actions. That’s why the discussion here seems to be about only the black parts. In that sense, wavpeac is right; it’s not a black-white thing. It is, however, about an administration that is very,very,very dark gray.
A further problem with the good-things-bad-things approach quoted above is that it seems to imply that the good and bad are somehow equal. They are in the case of the Obama Administration not equal, but the implication of equality suggests a compassionate understanding of human frailty and fosters a sense of forgiveness. “Does Obama like indefinite detention without trial? Yes, but he has done other good things [which are unspecified], so we can’t be too hard on the guy.” The next thought from this line of thinking is “He’s not perfect, but we have to get him reelected.”
The horror of what the presididn’t has/has not done is the cause of a lot of emotion. Sure, I get emotional about the abuse of power, law, citizens, non-citizens, the environment, trust, (we could do this all day, and yes I am mocking you) this person you are trying to apologize for has PERSONALLY caused.
My emotion is not the basis for my decision.
There is black and white, stop and go, off and on, yes and no. If your husband was driving your child around while blasted out of his mind, and you did nothing about it when you knew you should have, and your child was hurt in an “accident,” you’d know black and white. When the confusing gray cloud of nebulous maybes suddenly condenses and your conscious mind has to make a decision about what to do to prevent a catastrophe, that’s black and white. Don’t pretend all things are equal. We have to take some responsibility.