
Dresden after the bombing; from Wikipedia

Charred bodies waiting for burial; from Wikipedia
A brief, and hopefully not too inaccurate history; correct what you will:
During the first week of February, 1945, as Russian forces were preparing to close in on Berlin, Western Allies discussed how they might use massive air power to ‘aid the Russians’ in taking Berlin, perhaps ‘shortening’ the war that was clearly due to end soon.
To make a very long and convoluted story short, a plan was okayed by Churchill and the RAF and USAAF commanders to bomb three cities: Dresden, Chemitz, and Leipzig in order to block German troops coming from the west to shore up the Eastern Front and utterly break German morale.
I wish I could remember which luminaries got wind of the plan, and begged Churchill to spare Dresden, which was an architectural and artistic jewel of Europe. It was known as ‘the Florence of the Elbe’. No matter, I guess; the plan was approved.
During the four days and nights of bombing, British and American bombers dropped over 3900 tons of bombs and incendiaries, mainly white phosphorus, on Dresden and other cities. Apparently, 40% of the American bombs dropped were firebombs, which explosions and resulting fire and smoke so obscured the air that some planes (oops) bombed Prague and other cities in ‘error’.
The Wiki says that the two-ton bombs called ‘blockbusters’ had enough force to destroy an entire city block, blowing off roofs, blowing out doors and windows, allowing the funneling of air that would help spread the fire from the incendiaries (read: white phosphorus firebombs)
Other fuckups caused Meissen and Pirna to be the recipients of ‘accidental’ bombing.
The importance of Dresden as a military target was totally trumped up, and the machinations make grim reading. But make no mistake: it was the first time that bombing massive amounts of civilians was carried out in what was dubbed ‘strategic bombing’, but what was formalized terrorist bombing.
Any inquiries and tribunals were utterly whitewashed; The Truth will never come to light; historians still write of it, whether in utter condemnation or sick justification. Dresden had no military significance, just some big rail yard they didn’t bomb; they never even did bomb factories in the suburbs that might have loosely been seen as contributing to war materiel, or whatever.
Over 90% of Dresden was destroyed; no one knows how many died. Numbers range from 25,00 to Kurt Vonnegut’s estimate 135,000. The city was full of refugees fleeing the Russians from the east.
Vonnegut was captured by the Germans during the war, and was imprisoned under Dresden during the bombing. Vonnegut’s book Slaughterhouse-Five, Or the Children’s Crusade, tells bits of the story as fiction/nonfiction through his hero, Billy Pilgrim. I think I remember Kurt saying that after Dresden, nothing would ever again come out of his mouth that wasn’t funny.
Poking around for more memories of the horror, I found this posted ubiquitously, that The London Times apparently posted in 2008 from papers found after his death, but I can’t find the original source. An excerpt:
“There was no war in Dresden. True, planes came over nearly every day and the sirens wailed, but the planes were always en route elsewhere. The alarms furnished a relief period in a tedious work day, a social event, a chance to gossip in the shelters. The shelters, in fact, were not much more than a gesture, casual recognition of the national emergency: wine cellars and basements with benches in them and sandbags blocking the windows, for the most part. There were a few more adequate bunkers in the centre of the city, close to the government offices, but nothing like the staunch subterranean fortress that rendered Berlin impervious to her daily pounding. Dresden had no reason to prepare for attack – and thereby hangs a beastly tale.
Dresden was surely among the world’s most lovely cities. Her streets were broad, lined with shade-trees. She was sprinkled with countless little parks and statuary. She had marvellous old churches, libraries, museums, theatres, art galleries, beer gardens, a zoo and a renowned university.
It was at one time a tourist’s paradise. They would be far better informed on the city’s delights than am I. But the impression I have is that in Dresden – in the physical city – were the symbols of the good life; pleasant, honest, intelligent. In the swastika’s shadow, those symbols of the dignity and hope of mankind stood waiting, monuments to truth. The accumulated treasure of hundreds of years, Dresden spoke eloquently of those things excellent in European civilisa-tion wherein our debt lies deep.
I was a prisoner, hungry, dirty and full of hate for our captors, but I loved that city and saw the blessed wonder of her past and the rich promise of her future.
In February 1945, American bombers reduced this treasure to crushed stone and embers; disembowelled her with high explosives and cremated her with incendiaries. [snip]
The night they came over, we spent in an underground meat locker in a slaughterhouse. We were lucky, for it was the best shelter in town. Giants stalked the earth above us. First came the soft murmur of their dancing on the outskirts, then the grumbling of their plodding towards us, and finally the ear-splitting crashes of their heels upon us – and thence to the outskirts again. Back and forth they swept: saturation bombing.
“I screamed and I wept and I clawed the walls of our shelter,” an old lady told me. “I prayed to God to ‘please, please, please, dear God, stop them’. But he didn’t hear me. No power could stop them. On they came, wave after wave. There was no way we could surrender; no way to tell them we couldn’t stand it any more. There was nothing anyone could do but sit and wait for morning.” Her daughter and grandson were killed.
Our little prison was burnt to the ground. We were to be evacuated to an outlying camp occupied by South African prisoners. Our guards were a melancholy lot, aged Volkssturmers and disabled veterans. Most of them were Dresden residents and had friends and families somewhere in the holocaust. A corporal, who had lost an eye after two years on the Russian front, ascertained before we marched that his wife, his two children and both of his parents had been killed. He had one cigarette. He shared it with me.”
Dresden survivor Lothar Metzgar’s story is here.
We hope you’ve found some measure of peace now, Kurt. Jeez, we loved you.
There really just isn’t anything more I can say. Feel free to add what you will.



102 Comments




Love the interviews with Vonnegut that Moyers did. Also his columns.
Dresden was retribution for the bombing of London. Nothing more.
I used to have this on my old computer’s desktop, this stayed with me for some reason:
“A number of victims, not killed outright, had attempted to escape through a narrow emergency exit. At any rate, there were several bodies packed tightly into the passageway. Their leader had made it halfway up the steps before he was buried up to his neck in falling brick and plaster. He was about 15, I think.”
Being a good American baby raised in the land of Operation Paperclip, I used to believe in German collective guilt. It protected me.
I think you should add some context, like the fact that many, (almost certainly most), of the people in Dresden supported a regime that incarcerated, enslaved, tortured and slaughtered a significant fraction of it’s population and then went on to conquer many other nations in order to do the same to large segments of their populations. Dresden wasn’t a military target, it was revenge and meant to be a staggering blow delivered to cause the people who supported that regime, if only tacitly, pain and suffering and to make them experience some of what was meted out to the less fortunate in their names.
And as a person who would surely have been treated in a similar fashion had I been contemporaneous and proximate, I don’t have a problem with it.
‘And…so it goes’. Wow.
” it was the first time that bombing massive amounts of civilians was carried out in what was dubbed ‘strategic bombing’, but what was formalized terrorist bombing.”
The first time? Tell that to the Britishers who endured the Blitz, who had to send their children to foster homes and group homes in the countryside for their own protection.
War has always been about eliminating the enemies ability to fight and its will to fight. Think of the bombing of Dresden this way:
The Allies couldn’t take the residents of Dresden to the ovens of Aushwitz and Dachau, so they just brought the fire to Dresden instead.
“Destruction of cities and civilian populations through bombardment from the air was openly discussed in Britain during the 1920s. There is no more efficient way, quickly to gain an understanding of the pre-World War II “Beast-Man” idea of air terror, than to view the 1933 film by the oligarchs’ front-man, H.G. Wells, The Shape of Things to Come….
It has been argued that the British bombing of German cities was simply retaliation-in-kind for the German bombing of English cities. But this argument deliberately overlooks the fact that the British bombed Germany first. On July 8, 1940, Winston Churchill called for ‘an absolutely devastating, exterminating attack by very heavy bombers’ on Nazi Germany, and he approved the first raid against Germany, which was then carried out by bombing Berlin on Aug. 25. Germany’s bombing of Britain began on about two weeks later, on Sept. 7, 1940.”
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2003/3042shock_awe_wwii.html
“Dresden, a beautiful city, built in the art spirit, symbol of an admirable heritage, so anti-Nazi that Hitler visited it but twice during his whole reign, food and hospital center so bitterly needed now – ploughed under and salt strewn in the furrows.”–Kurt Vonnegut
Yes, Beach; I should have said ‘formalized Allied…etc.’
But no; I won’t choose to think of it that way, with all due respect.
Right? I’m not getting this whole, “the people of Dresden were innocent as new born babes” theory. Germans, including people in Dresden, started the slaughter, not the British, not the Americans. Or are we now going to be regaled with a “the Holocaust was made up bullshit” story? I don’t apologize and I don’t back off, all of the adults in Dresden reaped what they sowed and it’s abominable that children were orphaned, injured and killed and it’s a damned shame about the culture and history that was lost, (my minor in college was fine art), but that does have a tendency to happen in war and if people are too squeamish to experience warfare, then perhaps they shouldn’t wage it.
Another Tit-for-Tat ?
“and if people are too squeamish to experience warfare, then perhaps they shouldn’t wage it.”; yet the U.S. does/has and “we”, the people, tolerate and even applaud the killing of civilians in the name of …… while waging ‘war’. Does that make all of us guilty and deserving of revenge?
War IS hell and that is what I think Wendy was posting about.
And it’s just 50 years ago we decimated SouthEast Asia with ‘carpet bombing’ tactics.
The next ‘blockbuster’ will be Teheran…! 8-(
Oh, and “and finally to rural Cambodia, which was bombed at the stunning level of all allied air operations in the Pacific region during World War II, including the two atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I’m not applauding war but the fact is that if ever there was a war that needed to be fought and fought ruthlessly, it was that one.
Peg, Dresden was merely a prelude to the ever more devastating death and destruction wrought upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and nobody was/is worthy of that wanton, willful warfare…! 8-(
Laos too, Ubet…! 8-(
The recent series on PBS, “World War II in HD Colour”, asserts that the “strategic bombing” of that war was in large part intended to demoralize the German people and induce them to overthrow their government. That reminded me of other attempts in and before various wars to induce “regime change”. Such attempts usually don’t work. I think that their ineffectiveness is an important lesson to recall on this anniversary.
Thank you for working to deflate that particular assumed construct; srsly.
Yes.
Moral equivalence, anyone?
I had hoped that ‘strategic bombing’ would cause people to think of…oh, jeez; those bombings, Tuttle. I am dying here in agony of that human horror…the shadows on the sidewalks…
Thank you.
Sort of like you and me. We are part of a horrid and nasty regime that kills innocents. I guess we deserve to die for what we could not change.
As our friend Mohammed Ibn Laith reminds us that ‘all Americans elected these Masters of War’ (in effect), and we…we…what? Say, ‘Not in our names?’
Thank you, maryccurnin, for speaking to the similar ‘collective guilt of The People’ notion.
@Kelly Canfield February 14th, 2012 at 7:28 pm
I will let him speak for himself, then, as this from cTuttles diary (I went and checked before I spoke):
“What is there to discuss? The Government and people of the United States of America and Israel are determined to open another front in their war against everyone in the Middle East who does not leap to obey them. That’s how expansionist racist settler states behave. There is no difference none whatsoever between America and Israel. This fact is becoming ever more clear to ever more people in the region. For myself I am convinced it is only a matter of time before the Zionist politicians currently running the American outpost launch open military operations against one or more countries in the region. At which point it will be interesting to see whether the tactics my mentors in Southern Lebanon taught me are as effective there as they were for us.
Mohammed Ibn Laith”
Now if you want to say that the situations aren’t the same, in that not all Americans support the actions of our governments, say how it’s different. Please. How can I answer him? Are we all ‘collectively guilty’ in that we never stopped these lovers of war?
And Kelly Canfield; I couldn’t care a whit about your guilt. This diary reflect my pain at the unnecessary horrors rained down on a city/cities that cause untold effects on perpetrators, victims…and the next steps of war that have led us to…where we are now.
One of my uncles was the lead navigator for one of the American bombing wings that attacked Dresden. After the war was over, he went there.
He had a nervous breakdown. He never fully recovered. Before any of you damn him, he was 21 at the time.
They really must have believed in area bombing of cities.
“From March 1945 through the end of the war, many Japanese cities were subjected to area bombing with incendiaries. Tokyo, Osaka, and many other cities were burned out by firestorms that reached over 1000 degrees Fahrenheit. The bombings may have killed as many as 500,000 people.”
http://worldwar2database.com/html/japanbom.htm/page/0/1
The Strategic Bombing of Japan October 1944 – August 1945
This was before Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Over 60 Japanese cities were subjected to the Dresden-style saturation fire bombing techniques. It worked even better in Japan where so many homes were all wood and paper.
So it goes…
You must be fucking nuts!
When we are talking about the deaths at the hands of the German People, yes not just a few lunatic, fanatical Nazi, but the total complicity of the entire German population in the slaughter of 20-27 million Russians, 6 million Jews, 6 million Poles and only god knows how many gypsies and other ‘sub-humans not counting the dead soldiers and civilians in every country Nazi Germany invaded and occupied, and the bombing by Zeppelins of cities in England in WWI, and the saturation bombing of London and Coventry among other English cities, and the total destruction by the Luftwaffe of Stalingrad and Minsk to name just two Russian cities completely destroyed, and you want us to feel bad about the firebombing of German cities to force the surrender of one of the most monstrous criminal states in the annuals of the history of the world, I can only ask:
Are you fucking nuts?
You bet your fucking ass. All of Germany should have been reduced to a desolate, salt encrusted landscape with a fence along its border warning those who enter that “Arbeit Macht Frei”
Yeah, right: I’m sure a snarky post on their blog would have been much more effective.
Look, war is about killing people and destroying things, pummeling the enemy until he surrenders or simply can’t fight anymore. It bites and I pray my grandkids will know it only from history books, but it is what it is and it’s far from gone. I’m being absurdly optimistic when I say grandkids rather than great-great grandkids.
Dresden was especially bad, Tokyo was worse, neither holds the record in the horrors of war department. Yes, it was horrible, but Margaret is right: wars are fought not only between professional armies but also in the “hearts and minds” of the civilian population.
You know, I’m generally supportive of your diaries, and many of your comments.
This particular comment? FAIL. You simply cannot speak for or paraphrase Mohammed Ibn Leith to score some point. Only he can speak for himself.
He has a training and intelligence grounded in orthopraxy and examines questions on a case by case basis.
Now, I’ll speak for myself.
I don’t feel one jot of guilt for events that happened before I was born, and I cry bullshit on someone who asks me to do so.
I feel an obligation to be educated about history, and to act today, but no way do I bear the sins of the past, nor would I shame or ask other individuals to do so.
So you can put guilt mongering back in your catchers mit – that ball fails to cross the plate.
“…all of the adults in Dresden reaped what they sowed and it’s abominable that children were orphaned,…”
Margaret:
You have once again earned my respect and admiration for saying it the way it really is/was.
The sad but true reality is that we didn’t let the Russians visit on the Germans that which the Germans visited on the Russians first.
In the time I had, Barbarian, I did try to find some pages about the lifetime of trauma those pilots and support teams experienced after knowing what they had participated in. Didn’t didn’t anything, but we know it’s out there.
Mebbe the same for those who bombed Viet Nam, Laos and Cambodia with Monsanto’s Agent Orange, or Shock-and-Awed Iraq.
I am so sorry to hear your uncle was a victim of the firebombing of Dresden, too. And assuredly, all those of you close to him.
What do we do with the knowledge that George W. Bush’s grandfather did business with the Germans during the war? Is our country now being run by the same kind of criminals? How many millions have died because of our aggression and subversion? Please tell me, was 9-11 revenge for what we had done to innocents in oil producing states? Are we any better than the Germans? Are you a murderer because of Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan and soon, Iran? Do your children deserve to die because they live in a state that murders for greed?
Thanks for this FDL Diary wendydavis — it is a worthy diary. recc’d
While WW2 was a terrible explosion of human cruelty and death/destruction dealing it also was a creature of 20th century expansion of weaponry and the means to carry and deliver by air massive attacks on military,industrial and civilian targets.
The Germans may have started WW2 but the British were not without a record of inflicting British Imperialism around the world at swordpoint or with guns and bullets etc. to subjugate lands and peoples ( See India. See Middle East. ) and to be able to do Empire.
During WW2 Russia took massive punishment and infliction of war horror. Japan did as well. The Americans while getting a taste of air war at Pearl Harbor were for the duration of WW2 not to see aerial attacks on New York City,WashingtonDC or Chicago — three possible major American attacks for the Germans to have attacked by air if such a thing had come to be possible. Had Japan been able to mount naval or air attacks on LA,SanFrancisco or Seattle very likely they would have. American civilians populations were spared this. Japanese civilian populations however were not during WW2.
One can suppose that if the people of Dresden,Tokyo,Hiroshima or Nagasaki in late 1944/early 1945 had been given terms for surrender by WashingtonDC or London they may have. Had they been able to actually tender surrender to such terms these same civilian populations would have had to then endure/survive what their own leaders and governments would likely have done to negate any such surrender conduct.
Killing German innocents/children in Dresden was not about defeating Hitler or his warmaking minions. It was about sowing horror,terror and utter despair amongst German civilians.
Killing Japanese children with LeMay’s firebombings across Japan or then proceeding to drop atomic bombs on two Japanese cities with no prior provision for any surrender made possible by either of these largely civilian targets or likely possible even if terms had been advanced points to the Americans doing it because they could and wanted to do it. Dropping atomic bombs on Japan during the summer of 1945 was a massive infliction of extreme warmaking on a land and people already largely defeated and incapable of altering this fact.
What the Americans did to SE Asia during the American War On Vietnam failed on ethics,morals,measured mercy or compassion. It is incredible that Vietnam defeated the USA despite the obscene amounts of killing,bombing and ecological/social fabric wanton mayhem the Americans brought to SE Asia. Americans deserved victors justice from the Vietnamese which we never had to take or get.
In Iraq since 1990 the Americans have been killing,destroying and sowing environmental/social mayhem that when compared to what the Germans or Japanese did during WW2 does not gain or deserve pardon.
Americans have become quite alike Good Germans.
Truth and fact post WW2? Americans are now the WarBastards.
Will ten or fifteen million Americans who do not want to attack Iran be able or allowed to stop WashingtonDC or the Pentagon/CIA from doing so? The answer to this premise is very knowable. Look at what happened to Bradley Manning or is being done to Occupy.
Killing civilians,children and innocents is now commonly done by the Pentagon/CIA in pursuit of American hegemony/war victory goals. Barack Obama appears to be signing off on this being so often judging by what he does not say or do week after week,month after month,year after year.
Plenty of Good Americans will vote for Barack Obama in November 2012 to keep him POTUS. Good Germans = Good Americans. Seemingly so.
Some would suggest this is not on Barack Obama — suggesting it is our M-I-C/CIA Dark Lords “doing” it. What can Barack Obama do? So who ran for POTUS during 2008? Barack Obama or M-I-C/Pentagon/CIA?
I’m hoping MarkfromIreland and Mohammed will pop in on my latest and greatest, wendy…! ;-)
The Syrian Abyss…
thank you.
“the total complicity of the entire German population”
How do you know this?
As I told Kelly Canfield, doremus, I don’t care a whit how you feel, or what you believe about the history, or even if you care to pretend that the bombing of Dresden was necessary. I don’t eve care if you want to justify dropping atomic bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and name some number of American or Allied soldiers whose lives might have been spared.
This diary reflects what I feel and believe, and that I see it as the beginning of the trend to unleash more and more destruction against civilian populations, while making a pretense that we are The Good Guys. That’s pretty much it.
And again: the firebombing of Dresden did NOT force surrender; read the history books.
You go, Girl…! ;-)
You didn’t tell me anything – at least yet. I see no reply to me at my Kelly Canfield February 14th, 2012 at 7:28 pm
You can put as many spins on the topic as strikes your fancy.
You can call all Americans today, including yours truly, butchers of children throughout the world and you would be absolutely correct and for that I apologize to you and the universe, and I tell no lie.
But with over 45 years of study of WWII; intimate contact with the survivors of the death camps while teaching in Israel; and lecturing on comparative religion and the Holocaust at the university level, I can state, even handicapped with the sub-standard level of knowledge that I admittedly possess, that I will certainly burn in hell for what my country has done in my name;
however, then again,
the Germans ( 1933-1945), the good, the bad, and the ugly, to them Dante’s hell will be but a dip in a glacial pool, and only the incandescent wrath of ‘god’ will wash the stench of their foul sins from the nostrils of the human race.
Otherwise dear compatriot, have a very Happy Valentine’s Day, honest.
Books.
Must have gotten rather close to the truth to rile you up so much.
Happy Valentine’s Day!
Oopsie, up thread just above your comment to me that starts, “You know, I’m generally supportive of your diaries, and many of your comments.”
There weren’t any reply boxes left, dear, so I opened mine and added the @Kelly thing, thinking you’d see it.
I was simply flipped out to see you doing another version of ‘Bomb the shit outta them and turn the desert to glass’ stuff. As I said, you are welcome to your version of the truth, but I don’t at all subscribe to your point of view.
And your passive aggressive stuff is not welcome. Srsly.
@doremus35 February 15th, 2012 at 6:28 am
This was passive-aggressive, IMO, after going to great lengths to imply that my moral compass is seriously skewed; “Happy Valentine’s Day!” (Speaking of Veritas! Veritas!)
This is a tough paragraph to look away from, shootthatarrow:
“Killing Japanese children with LeMay’s firebombings across Japan or then proceeding to drop atomic bombs on two Japanese cities with no prior provision for any surrender made possible by either of these largely civilian targets or likely possible even if terms had been advanced points to the Americans doing it because they could and wanted to do it. Dropping atomic bombs on Japan during the summer of 1945 was a massive infliction of extreme warmaking on a land and people already largely defeated and incapable of altering this fact.”, especially the part I bolded.
Didn’t we learn recently that Japan had actually surrendered after the atomic bomb threat, and the message was either garbled, or too late, or something like that? Oh, if I had a memory…
I don’t have any guilt for one. I am not determined to open another front for two.
To conflate these things is in my opinion, stupid and useless. Do you feel pain for the losing armies and the atrocities in the Iliad or the Anabasis? No, you don’t. Those humans didn’t have any less of lives or feelings.
I mean how far back do you have to go to be free from association of atrocities?
To my mind what is important is now; today you’re alive, and today, what can you do to oppose?
If one opposes war today to the extent one can – you’re all good. If one doesn’t oppose – then they’re not good.
You can pretend you weren’t going for a guilt play, but that would be that – pretending.
New info to me, hpschd. Does that mean ‘harpsichord’? Thanks for the link. ‘Strategic bombing’. Makes ya wonder about the purpose of General Everyday Bombing.
I’m for bed; see y’all in the morning, and thanks for a most interesting comment stream. ;o)
wd
I wonder what the toll of death was throughout the 20th century due to war? All told. Everywhere. Both civilian and armed forces of all sides and in all wars? And how many were left alive, but maimed, crippled, orphaned, or severely impacted psychologically, financially, socially, such that a “normal life” was an impossible dream? How many treasures, such as Dresden before the war, were irreparably damaged or lost forever during the 20th century? How many treasures, such as each individual is, were lost because of the impact war and all that it entails, had upon them? War includes the killing of parents in front of children. It includes the raping of women in front of their husbands and fathers and brothers. It includes the wiping out of whole towns and villages – poof – they are gone. And is this which we, as a global community,(I say this with full knowledge that we, as a nation, are the leading war makers and suppliers of weapons) wish to repeat in the 21st century? If it is, then we need to do nothing for we are well on the way of continuing such losses and “collateral damage”. If it is not, how do we end this? How do we say “no more”? How do we protect and defend that which is too high a price to pay for whatever the reason is for war? We are a nation that has been engaged in war (rightly and wrongly) for decades, can we change our focus and point of view? It has been done before. Centuries ago Tibet was once the “biggest, baddest dudes on the block” and then they changed. Tibet became as we know them now. Can we change? Can we turn this boat around? Being the cockeyed optimist that I am, I see evidence everyday that, indeed, such a change is underway. It is growing and expanding, this push for change. Not as fast as I would like, but it is coming. Dresden. Such a loss. Hiroshima. Nagasaki. The unnamed soldiers. The John Does. The children who were raised in a household held in the grip of a father with PTSD before it was called that. Or the wife, widowed, impoverished and abandoned by her community. All deep losses and no less than Dresden. The change must originate first with us, the U.S. For if we do not change, no one else CAN. Change is afoot although the crest of the wave (tsunami?) has yet to make landfall, it is heading straight for us.
hpschd is the title of a John Cage piece for 7 harpsichords, 51 computer-generated tapes, and 2000+ projected slides. Each harpsichord has a separate score played repeatedly for 3-4 hours. The attendees were encouraged to wander around among the instruments during the performance. In the original performance (May 16, 1969 at the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign) the biggest problem was keeping the performers from taking cigarette breaks at the same time.
We were involved in the second full performance (since the ’60s) here in Toronto.
Cage was quite a character and I was lucky to have spent some time with him back then.
hotflash and I build harpsichords. I perform ocassionally.
Back OT: “Hiroshima” by John Hersey was a major revelation to me at age 14 and made a permanent change in my attitude about war.
“make harpsichords, not war”
Wendy, I’m with you on this. There was no need to bomb Dresden and it is questionable that strategic bombing anywhere ever accomplished anything but killing people. Any damage to factories was repaired in a few days.
On 14 November 1940 Coventry was fire-bombed by the Germans. It seems certain that the British had advance warning – having decoded German communications. No defensive measures were taken so as to avoid letting the Germans know that their code was broken. 600 died and 1000 injured.
I think that the guilt for not warning Coventry poisoned many and may have had something to do with Dresden, ridding themselves of the taint.
Hell of a read and comments covered possibly all angles that COULD be covered.
N that’s all I got to say . . . it all brings up disturbing memories and points to disturbing present reality.
Life today is quite disturbing on these levels past and present.
Like Orwells 1984, the disturbing shit seems to go on and on without end or resolution. . . hand in hand with all the deceit required to perpetuate it.
The 1% are killing us, then, now and it seems, for ever.
LeSigh.
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How many people in the world would like to do that to us now?
Our spread sheet numbers are probably a lot higher.
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Why aren’t you doing more to stop our wars? If you don’t vote for Ron Paul you deserve Austin to be reduced to rubble.
I thought we let the Russians do it.
That’s bullshit and it’s about the most dishonest argument that anyone can make for Paul. You think that he is some kind of pacifist or something and that’s just delusional. BTW mouth:
A) you don’t know what I’ve done to stop Bush’ and now Obama’s wars.
B) the last time I looked, Austin wasn’t being bombed by Iraq but if it was, it would be a fair target for waging aggressive war.
C) you can hardly compare the two. How many times have you heard about Iraqis enslaved, put into camps, experimented on and slowly starved to death?
I’ll wait while you make more ridiculous shit up.
If that’s the case then I’ll vigorously oppose it and even be arrested for it if that’s what it comes to. Like some of the brave Dresden residents did when they opposed Hitler’s policies. But you can’t equate the holocaust with a possible, (but so far fictional), war crime in Iran
But apparently people who disagree with how you think and feel aren’t allowed to post their opinions here… Maybe you should have put your screed up on your own blog where it wouldn’t be adversely commentated on.
Except we weren’t talking about Japan. YOU brought up Japan and LeMay in order to defend Hitler. Because that’s exactly what you’re doing, all bullshit aside
Kelly is absolutely spot on. You’re trying to make me feel guilty about something that happened before I was born, though as I’ve said, if I was alive at the time I would have been a supporter of whatever it took to end that regime. Wendy and her supporters want me to hang my head in shame over something that happened before I was even alive but I’m not going to do it. We even have one commentator who insists that I’m steeped in blood if I don’t vote for Ron Paul. Campaign by blackmail. How very American!
One of the few things Conservatives get right is the penchant for some Liberals to reflexively blame American society for everything. But I have no guilt or remorse over what happened 16 years before I was born and that guilt isn’t mine to bear. Nor have I ever owned a slave, participated in the capture, transport, sale or exploitation of a slave but if all things were the same and I was alive back then, I would have been opposed. Until somebody invents a time machine, all of our opinions regarding the guilt of our forebears are moot.
Good read, well put.
Next to go is the “honors” bestowed on the “heros” who do the killing for the masters.
@ Kelly Canfield February 14th, 2012 at 8:50 pm
“You can pretend you weren’t going for a guilt play, but that would be that – pretending.”
Call me naive, but it wasn’t intended to be a persuasion piece, I hadn’t even spent any time considering that the retelling of this barbarous act wouldn’t be almost universally condemned here. Oops; looks as though I got that part wrong.
I wrote it because I couldn’t NOT write it, though I tried for a good part of the day not to; the images in my head would not be banished. So perhaps I wrote it more of a reminder that even in what are seen as ‘good or necessary wars’, there are acts that amount to crimes against humanity, and we shouldn’t forget them, and see them as some touchstones in the history of war, and allow us to ask ourselves to consider a phrase like ‘winning by any means necessary’. Dresden fails on all counts to me. Had the ‘investigations’ after the war led to that conclusion, I do wonder if such atrocities would be going on now.
And I confess I lost a lot of sleep after reading in the back pages of the Denver Post that our soldiers buried Iraqi soldiers alive with bulldozers as the war there was winding down, and the Republican Guard had been…annihilated.
As for “I mean how far back do you have to go to be free from association of atrocities?”…
My goodness, Kelly Canfield; many of us here had fathers, uncles, neighbors who fought in the war, and many of those experiences changed them forever. Robert Dumas has told us his father helped bombed Dresden, and how it affected him for the rest of his life; Ohio Barbarian’s uncle, the same.
Many of us, being the precocious little things we were, steeped ourselves in the literature and history of the Holocaust, or heard first hand accounts of fleeing the Nazis and coming to America, and it shaped our lives and worldviews.
And then later we may have read accounts of events like Dresden that seemed just plain dead wrong, and caused us to tweak our moral compasses a bit to be able to see that.
I’m not sure why you say I want you to feel guilty; it’s just not the case. Srsly.
Can’t see where you’ve gotten that idea, Margaret. I admit when I read your first comment, and the personal reference, I blinked my eyes hard a few times, maybe my mouth even fell open.
But it’s not like I have an issue with people expressing themselves on my threads, but when I disagree, I’ll often say why. ‘My screed’; now see, it’s you condemning me for my presentation, no?
Yep, what you referenced below about someone saying that unless you voted for Ron Paul ‘you’d have blood on your hands’, that’s just vicious hyperbole, IMO. I do think you and a couple others are taking all this more personally that I would have pictured, and projecting some of your reactions onto me, especially that I intended to make you feel *guilty*. Nope, just assumed, as I said, that we could all *condemn* this barbarity. Not so much, it seems.
@ Margaret February 15th, 2012 at 3:15 pm
Gotta be tomorrow, margaret. Darth headache tonight. At the bottom of the thread.
Hundreds of people log in and place comments on these FDL comment threads every week Margaret. I have been doing so for several years now and for the most part have been treated respectively and most often with common courtesy.
There are exceptions.
Looks like you want to be one.
When I log into my FDL account I am not required to clear my doing so or clear any comments I make here at FDL with you.
You enjoy the same process likewise.
I did not see any notice at the top of this comments thread that I was not part of the collective “we” nor that I should not/could not comment freely or reference relevant historical/political points. It is called Freedom of Expression and supposedly is an American political right for which U.S. Armed Forces fight to defend? For which you indeed appear to have joined U.S. Armed Forces to do? Correct or not?
Frankly I did not and had not commented directly or indirectly about any comment you have placed on this comments thread. I have never addressed you on any FDL comments thread to the best of my knowledge. I did review your FDL comments history prior to putting this comment up. FDL being a big place I see you frequent some parts of FDL I tend to not visit very much or most often simply do not visit. Part of this due to my expressed aversion to pointless R vs. D endless laps around a oval racetrack. In other words — going nowhere fast.
My comment seems to have hit a tripwire with you and the above comment reads/seems quite heated. Especially the YOU featured in it and that entire last sentence– Exactly? Really? So you are able to read my mind and claim this to be “exactly” so?
You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to dismiss it.
Perhaps one day if and when you purchase and own FDL you then can install Dkos styled HR practices and censorship thuggery here at FDL. Until that day gets here however or until FDL management empowers you to do it you do not get to do so.
Nor do I. FairPlay.
shootthatarrow
I’ll add my information.
In 1940 the Germans, the Nazis, were successfully bombing airfields in the South & East of England as the precursor to their invasion.
This was their military strategy.
Churchill made the decision to bomb Berlin to provoke Hitler into Bombing London and other English cities (Coventry). This strategy succeeded, and the focus of German bombing moved for airfields to Cities, because Hitler overruled his senior military advice.
A necessary and difficult decision by Churchill. If not made the British would not have succeeded in the “Battle of Britain” to fight off the German invasion. There would have been few operating airfields.
Y’all can second guess decision made in War from a distance of 60 years. I choose not to.
As an aside I will add these 20th century wars impoverished Europe, as are now the imperial wars of the US impoverishing the US. After WW II The Germans directed their efforts into building a better society, and I can remember reports of the “German Miracle” in the’60s, as their economy grew, and the British economy stumbled from crisis to crisis, under its traditional leadership. Today we have the “Chinese Miracle” as the counterpart to the US’ empire.
The British Economy was miserable up until the recovery of the ’80s, a bright spot. It appears the British economy has returned to the austere, grim, cold and grey misery of the ’60s and ’70s. A period I remember very well.
Passive aggressive?
Hardly! I am actively aggressive about your attempt to ask us to pity the fate of the aggressor while not balancing your statements with a few paragraphs about the slaughter of millions of innocent children (1.5 million Jewish children alone were gassed or shot and burned or just buried alive or wrenched from their parents arms and then had their heads bashed against a convenient wall), women, and men and why the allies took the steps they did in the hope of ending one of the most destructive wars in the history of mankind.
And name calling is below the dignity you have established for yourself and your work.
Veritas! Veritas!
It helps if you know that Margaret would have likely been condemned as an untermensch in one of the many concentration or death camps scattered throughout the German and Polish landscapes.
Hitler didn’t just kill Jews, you know.
He also killed gays, Gypsies, transgendered persons. To name a few.
The fact that LaRouche and Ron Paul are cited by the Hitler apologists should tell us something.
And the fact that they try to claim Nazi moral superiority because the Brits allegedly drew first air blood. Yeah, tell that to Coventry.
Reminds me of the cherry-picking and contortions Nicholson Baker did in order to try and make Hitler out to be a good guy in Human Smoke.
It reeks of what Nicholson Baker was trying to do in his last book, Human Smoke:
I don’t think it’s an accident that the Allies reserved their worst bombing attack for what may have been an anti-Nazi city. Nagasaki, similarly, was a Christian city in Japan, clearly not part of the Japanese Imperial cult of bushido. I remember seeing an Australian film, don’t remember the name, in which an Australian military officer is dictating a dispatch in which he says “ironically, Nagasaki was a Christian city” and then corrects himself: “drop the ‘ironically.’”
Are you forgetting about the Nazi saturation bombing of the Spanish city of Guernica on April 26, 1937, during the Spanish Civil War (commemorated by Picasso in his famous painting)?
Are you forgetting about the Nazi saturation bombing of the Spanish city of Guernica on April 26, 1937, during the Spanish Civil War (commemorated by Picasso in his famous painting)? (Sorry, I posted this reply in the wrong spot earlier).
Never heard that theory, twocents. Yeah; that wasn’t gonna happen, was it?
Thanks for the harpsichord vignette, hpschd; glad I asked. ;o) And that you and hotflash make the instruments is srsly cool, as is that you were involved in the second performance. Also nice to know you’re in Toronto; I have a good blogging friend there; he works for the G on sustainable energy issues.
Love: “make harpsichords, not war” ;o)
Haven’t seen any ‘Hitler apologists’ or claims of Hitler moral superiority on the thread, PW. I do see people honestly trying to get at some truths that didn’t make it to the concretized narrative after the war.
This diary was about Dresden, and a little bit about the birth of Allied strategic bombing. And it’s likely we all know why Margaret sees that she would have been a victim as transgendered.
What some of us attempting to do is step back and look at the intentional conflagration of 130,000 people and a city dedicated to art, and measure that against any pretense or reality that it was…necessary or moral.
I agree with much you’ve written, walkinboots. For me, one of the changes we can help is to stop painting every citizen in a country, or of a particular culture or religion as either Good or Bad, and cry foul at killing civilians either intentionally, or with cavalier disregard, for a start. Tough gig, apparently. ;o)
Wow Wendy, what a firestorm of projected emotion you’ve unleashed with your piece that merely evokes REFLECTION on the insanity of war.
The people accusing you of trying to evince some guilt from their obviously sensitive consciences are just lashing out. Don’t take it personally. I enjoyed the post and understand what you meant by recognizing the anniversery and Vonnegut. As to the people of Dresden “deserving” what they got, if that isn’t gazing into the abyss, I don’t know what is.
LOL! Looks like it, hotdog. And surely ‘firestorm’ was an unintended pun, yes? ;o)
But no, even though some of the comments are pretty high-octane and personal, it doesn’t mean that I have to *accept them* personally. One of the great things about posting diaries that bring push-back is that we all get to really sift through the chaff, and get to the wheat of our beliefs and even the metrics of our morality, if that isn’t putting it too crudely.
I did spend more time than usual in bafflement, then tried to see which of the comments seemed to not reflect much of what I’d actually written. Once there, it wasn’t much of a leap to see that different projections might be at play. Sort of silly of me that I hadn’t anticipated it might be such a contentious issue, but…there it is.
I enjoyed the thread, all in all. As with the one I did on nonviolence v. diversity of tactics, there was plenty of high dudgeon, but also plenty of reasoned discourse; I liked it a lot, too. Seems as though there are plenty of conversations we need to have.
Thanks for allusing to the Nietzche again, dear.
Edited to include: You mentioned James Baldwin on another of my threads. I went to my Posterous recently, and saw I’d use this quote there, lol!
” People who shut their eyes to reality simply invite their own destruction, and anyone who insists on remaining in a state of innocence long after that innocence is dead turns himself into a monster.”
~ James Baldwin
Au contraire.
My wish for you to have a Happy Valentine’s Day was sincerely stated and considering some of the details of your life that you have shared with me, I wish for you and your family, all of your family, the very best that life has to offer.
You have your way of seeing the world and I have mine.
Moral compass?
I have no idea what such a device would look like and therefore would not presume to be a judge of yours or anyone else’s.
And once again I say may love and peace be your companions through the travails of your life.
Shoot That Arrow.
Best response-ever.
Wendy, I am horrified but not at all surprised by this story and the responses to it.
It is exactly the kind of self justification for the unjustifiable that I have come to expect from Democrats and their legions of apologists and appeasers.
And by the legions of Democrats and their apologists and appeasers, I mean people like My fellow Minnesotan, Pheonix Woman.
By the way just so that you all know. Myself and Alan Maki posted some comments on one of Pheonix Womans articles. Kind of debunking the principle of her article.
Her response? Deleted the comments. Which is exactly what I have come to expect from Democrats. They do not engage in fact driven debates. Instead they hide from them.
Pheonix, you will not be able to delete comments here.
FYI:
Constantine Pleshakov in his book ‘Stalin’s Folly, The Tragic First Ten Days of WWII on the Eastern Font’,Houghton Mifflin, 2005, states that in the first ten days of Operation Barbarossa the German’s killed over 400,000 Russian soldiers and an unknown number of civilians.
He also points out that the Luftwaffe mercilessly bombed and strafed the massive number of civilians on the roads seeking refuge in the East of Russia.
He stresses out that when the individual German fighters ran out of bullets, they killed civilians by striking them with the wheels of their aircraft and many survivors had black bruises the entire length of their bodies from where they were struck by the wheels.
Thought that might be of some morbid interest in the midst of this morality play.
On the subject of the firebombing of Japan:
After successful US airstrikes at concentrated munitions plants the Japanese government dispersed armaments and defense manufacturing operations to thousands of small shops and homes doted throughout virtually every major or semi-major city. Lots of assembly and sub-assembly work was done in these shops, on everything from weapons and ammo belts to first aid kids, land mines, airplane guages and electronics, etc.
I distinctly remember that explanation from the TV series, but proof requires rewatching episode seven. The series seems not to be available on the internet (http://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/world-war-ii-in-hd-colour/videos/348778).
Your opening paragraphs summarize the Wikipedia article quite well, and the idea of regime change or inducing the German government to collapse is only sorta there. So I withdraw my remark.
Your reminder of the horrors of war is appreciated, even if the ensuing discussion seems to have taken a different direction.
If ya like history, I’d be really interested what you think about Niall Ferguson’s ‘Wars of the World’ if ya ever get a chance to see it. His conclusion was that all of the 20th century wars (that never srsly quit) were mainly based on ethnic disputes. Pretty interesting, and he can sorta make the case, though I may just be gullible. That said, Ferguson’s economics suck, IMO. ;o)
Thanks, Beach.
Yes, O Master of War Porn; sooo helpful. You seriously do not understand the point of this diary.
Ya know Wendy, I like and respect you, though I can’t say the same for some of those you apparently like and respect but that’s all good. To each his/her own but the one thing I can’t abide is intolerance, which always leads to discrimination, frequently to official oppression and in the case of Hitler’s Germany, to torture, enslavement, vivisection, medical experimentation and slaughter. Do you agree those things occurred in Nazi Germany? If so, what, in your opinion, should we have done about it if anything? These are honest, non aggressive questions. As for my use of the word “screed” it wasn’t meant as a disparagement but rather as a descriptive. I frequently call my own writing “screeds”.
Looking forward to a response.
Really not interested in your opinion of me. It’s entirely irrelevant.
P.S. Please point out where I have commented to you on this or any other post to justify this sentence:
Seriously. What the fuck are you talking about? When did I suggest you or anybody else wasn’t free to comment?
What a goddamn blowhard you are.
All your sweet talk about how all Germans should have been killed, and the level of hell they’re all to be sent to… and then further down the page here you’re babbling on about how all Americans are going to hell to, and then I see in your next diary commented upon, you wept your eyes out for the death of your dog. I quote,
“Jane, a little over a year ago my Tibetan Terrier who was my best friend for sixteen summers was diagnosed with advanced lymphatic cancer and I signed that dreadful piece of paper and weeping like a child I hugged him for the last time and said goodbye. I have tears in my eyes even now as I share this with you and extend a soft shoulder and my heartfelt empathy to you and yours. It was the hardest thing I have ever had to do.”
Some people so lose touch with their humanity that they condemn tens of millions, en masse, to death, salted and unsalted, and an eternity in hell.
And then weep for the dogs.
You’ve become a fool.
Yeah, just like you knew the polling on how the people of Dresden felt about Hitler.
Talk about making shit up.
And if ever the Earth had a blowhard people who loved to lecture the world on the necessities and nastiness of wars, then it was the Americans.
People who sweet fuck all about it, other than the liquid hell they dropped on others.
And of course, you’re too big and bold and brassy to ever “apologize or back off,” so how about this:
You and your ilk killed millions of Vietnamese – to say nothing of the Vietnamese – and so when the fire comes raining down on you, I expect you to stand outside, reach up and embrace it.
Another big-mouthed American.
Why, I’m just in shock.
Wow. You’re sick.
Seriously, that’s deeply sick.
I mean, the Germans we know TODAY, with all the good they do, and all the good in then, are ONLY alive because the Russians – and ourselves – did NOT kill all the Germans.
You have no idea the consequences of the shit you’re talking now, do you? You’re just talking Old People Revenge Talk. Which is another term for… big-mouthed punk.
You, go, Quinn. This ‘kill zem all’ schtick is seriously troubling.
Well we meet again. I thought after this war, in the Warsaw Pact, or something of this nature, that War as we know it, was outlawed. Meaning any of these attacks on Iraq / Iran or other under the covers shennanigans is “illegal.” Therefore throwing out any argument aimed at defending the US position in any other country besides our own.
Simple question. Have you talked to anyone from Iraq? Afghanistan? Pakistan? Any of these countries? Anyone? How can we assume we are better than “Ze Germans” in WWII? Because we don’t gas them after putting them in camps? Are we really calculating the fact that Hitler killed 6-7 million people and what? We have “only” killed a mere 200,000 or so? Or whatever the “real” number is? Are we really comparing numbers here on human lives? I thought 1 life was enough?
I have a friend from Iraq. She lost her mother, dad, and uncle the same day while they were driving down a highway in Baghdad. An army force opened fire on her and her family. She was given a piece of paper, a “claim,” to $2,000 for her “loss.” No reason as to why they opened fire on their car on the highway. Not that this needs a reason, the truth remains, and the longer we continue to circle this BS propaganda machine, the longer we will continue our silence and conformity.
I believe the troops will ultimately stand up. Stop in their tracks….feel as though this isn’t “right,” and truly ask the right questions, for whom are we protecting? Why again?
A beautiful piece Wendy, as always, all the love to everyone on here.
We must search for beauty within us and let this light shine through.
For Margaret, offered with love from your question above:
Well, Margaret; as my old grandpappy used to say: “Half an olive branch is better than none.” ;o)
Of course I believe those things happened in Nazi Germany. As I hinted to Kelly Canfield, I was steeped in stories from family friends who’d fled Czechoslovakia and Hungary and came here to escape the Nazis. And I spent my sub-teen and teenage years and later reading accounts of the death camps, and Zionist quasi-fiction…I was a regular little Zionist shiksa, enough so that it was hard for me to grasp the horrors Israel was inflicting on Gaza and West Bank citizens. (A dearth of news in this backwater didn’t help, but still…)
I’d quibble that intolerance doesn’t *always* lead to discrimination, but that’s not what needs addressing here, so I’ll skip over that bit, and get to the ‘what…should we have done about it?’ part to start.
You may want to remember that Kristallnacht in Germany and Austria was in 1938, and the systemic pogroms kept on; the Warsaw Ghetto was built in maybe early 1940, etc. And FDR never denounced Hitler, a fact which many Jews and others decried then…and do today. Many writers say FDR either didn’t, or chose not to believe, stories coming out of Europe of Jewish incarceration, wealth seizures, firings, etc.
But do remember that ‘we’ only got into the war after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, and some of *that* history is a bit murky as to who-knew-what-when, all that… (Lend-lease did get signed nine months earlier, which was very supportive). But the debates on the history about US involvement having much to do with the death camps (and I used to be able to name twenty off the top of my heard, Margaret) isn’t as clear as we might like it. Immigration policy, arrgghh…it’s got my head swimming… Nope, not gonna argue it here; we all might have some position staked out on that one, just like secession and the Civil War; srsly. And what was going on at the time with *our ally* Stalin against whole swaths of his people at the time is another whole interesting subject I’ve just been learning about….
Again to the ‘what should we have done’, makes me think of the Quaker response to the question: “We would never allowed any of it to get that far”, which is a curious thing to say, and almost a dodge. But then, if you think of how many American (and other countries’) MOTUs were complicit with Hitler’s policies, and others that allowed all this to happen, it forces you to approach the question far differently. Yet it’s incredible to me that so many Americans still buy the ‘We’re the Good Guys’ bogus narrative, and disregard so very much of our original sins of NA genocide and slavery, and many, many other Imperialist crimes against humanity. Anyhoo…
Your fist comment to me implied somehow that I should have put Dresden in context of what the Nazi regime did; are you kidding that you think there’s one person on the boards who doesn’t know all that??? I was just bumfuzzled, but then figured that it was just a technique for you to excuse, maybe embrace, the firebombing, which…it was, as we learned later. Doremus, too, whose statements literally fried my brain with their genocidal exuberance.
One of the touchstones that you used for your opinion about Dresden was that people like you would have been sent to the ovens, and you’re probably right. Lots of us would have, but for different reasons. But what you’re doing is projecting yourself back into that time, and building on that outrage, and preventing you to examine these Allied atrocities with anything like clarity, imo.
You know how much I admired your piece ‘They forgot the T in DADT’, and we all know, and PW referenced again yesterday, as a Key Reason that informs your endorsement of Dresden. And I’m going to risk saying to you that even though what the Navy did you, and many others have likely done to you over time…should not allow you to see yourself just as a victim of sick, bigoted people and policy, Margaret. Christ; you’re smart, strong, talented, a great and creative worker from what you say. You’ve developed a strong and supportive community that has your back, and my guess is that in many ways you’re empathetic and giving to those others.
But the way I see it, you’re projecting yourself back in time, and feeling a justifiable outrage prevents you from seeing that not all Germans were the same as Hitler and his minions, thus declaring that the civilian population deserved what they ‘got’. And yep; the dominant narrative goes that way far too often. We accept and applaud Nuremburg trials , and love the Nazi hunters going to the ends of the earth to rout out the assholes, , but forget to ask why ‘we’ were never held accountable for what we did in Dresden, or Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and more. Again, I’d argue that this is much of the reason we find ourselves here today, acting as terrorists, not even in the name of stopping more genocides, but in order to secure resources and promote American hegemony, most frequently allying with brutal dictators, and only over-throwing the ones that the MOTUs find inconvenient to our aims.
When I think of the Joseph Mengeles, Don Rumsfelds and Dick Cheneys of the world, it’s a cinch that I can imagine putting my hands around their throats and ending their lives; no problem. Forcing myself to step back, though, I see how wrong it would be; I don’t have to explain that further to you, I’m sure. But when that plays out on a macro level, and revenge and outrage become justification for too many inhumane behaviors, we have situations like present day Israel becoming their own worst enemy, and treating the Palestinians like the sub-humans the Nazis treated them, and the way that the US has treated yellow and brown people and some black people all over the world, while…pretending otherwise.
So each time we can step back from our feelings engendered by our reptilian brains, and find some measure of higher consciousness to guide not only our perceptions, but our actions, both as individuals and a nation…it’s a victory, imo. And a big part of that victory is that we don’t become the same monsters we fight; without that, we will always tacitly accept that ‘humans will always be at war’, and that truth is always the first casualty of war is a huge truth, imo. Like the one cited here so often: ‘All Germans supported the Nazi regime’…which is a very powerful narrative we grew up with, and absorbed too easily, myself included…for far too long.
Jayzus, this is turning into a damned book, so I should end it soon. But I do want to say that my aim with diary wasn’t to guilt-trip anyone. I had no idea that all of us wouldn’t have already condemned our barbarism in Dresden and other cities in nations, and was blown away to read much presented here. I WANTED YOU TO FEEL OUTRAGE; THE SAME OUTRAGE WE FELT FOR NAZI THE NAZI ATROCITIES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.
I know I’ve left some things out I’d thought to say, but clearly, I must have had a bit too much coffee, and I really did think you deserved a response. Hope you can accept it in the spirit I offer it, Margaret. You’re worth far more than what you presented here; far more.
Love and strength to you.
wd
‘Allo, ‘allo, dear chebetts! How in the hell did you dig out this dead thread? So glad you did, and added your comment and brief and sordid tale of your friend receiving that check. Two grand for three loved ones. Staggering.
Though few of the 1.3 million (most recent figure I’ve seen) dead’s relatives in Iraq would have received anything, so… Whoosh.
Dunno which ‘war no more’ agreement you might be referencing; the Warsaw Pact was formed to counteract NATO’ looks like that didn’t work out so well, at least now that ‘NATO/GCC/AFRICOM is on the march. More to come…in countries like Mali, west of Niger. OMG.
I appear to be, luckily for ya and others, outta words. Kinda spent far too many of them below, as you’ll notice. ;o)
Love to you, you wife and new babby; I hope for The Light, too.
Well, I’m glad we got that off our collective chests. If I may sum up: Killing sucks. Self-defense is necessary. There’s a whole lot of tough choices and decisions in-between. I hope we can all remember that the enemy today is the corporations and their minions that seek to own the world and all of our futures.