
Leonard Peltier (Image: Peta de-Aztlan / Flickr)
According to the NY Times, after years of requests by Lakota leaders, US Attorney Brendan Johnson has announced that his department will review 50 deaths on or near the Pine Ridge Reservation in the 1970s. Johnson says that he will assign a team of three assistant US attorneys to complete reports on each death, many of which had been determined to be accidental deaths or suicides. If the panel reports that there are enough unanswered questions, he will recommend that the FBI* or other investigative bodies assist his team. Johnson says he wants it done right, and it may take some time, but if prosecutions are needed as a result, he doesn’t care how long it takes, or how old the cases are.
His team has already begun to collect documents for their case files, and they intend to speak with family members soon.
“Many of the dead were associated with the American Indian Movement, or AIM, which was involved in a power struggle with Richard A. Wilson, the tribal president during the 1970s. And much of the violence occurred as a consequence of the conflict between AIM and the Guardians of the Oglala Nation, a paramilitary organization known as GOONs, organized by Mr. Wilson.
The period from 1973 to 1976, known on Pine Ridge as the “reign of terror,” was marked by deadly ambushes at highway checkpoints and gunfights that on occasion lasted for days. Among the casualties during the period were two F.B.I. agents. Leonard Peltier, an AIM member, was convicted of their murders.
The strife also included the 71-day standoff between AIM members and federal troops in 1973 at Wounded Knee, S.D.”
From the AIM-related section of a report on COINTELPRO, with contributions from Robert Boyle, Bob Brown, Tom Burghardt, Noam Chomsky, Ward Churchill, Kathleen Cleaver, Bruce Ellison, Cynthia McKinney, Nkechi Taifa, Laura Whitehorn, Nicholas Wilson, and Howard Zinn) in 2001, and presented to the World Conference on Racism in Durban, SA in 2001:
“Despite tens of thousands of pages of documentary evidence, the idea that the Bureau would utilize private right-wing operatives and terrorists is a chilling, alien concept to most Americans. Nevertheless, the FBI has financed, organized, and supplied arms to right-wing groups that carried out fire-bombings, burglaries, and shootings.
This was the case during the FBI’s COINTELPRO in South Dakota in the 1970′s against the Oglala Sioux Nation and the American Indian Movement. Right-wing vigilantes were used to disrupt the American Indian Movement (AIM) and selectively terrorize and murder the Oglala Sioux people, in what could only be described as a counter-insurgency campaign. During the 36 months roughly beginning with the 1973 seige of Wounded Knee and continuing through the first of May 1976, more than sixty AIM members and supporters died violently on or in locations immediately adjacent to the Pine Ridge Reservation. A minimum of 342 others suffered violent physical assaults. [snip]
“To commemorate the 1890 massacre of Wounded Knee, in which 300 Minnecojou Lakota were slaughtered by the U.S. Seventh Cavalry, hundreds of Native Americans from reservations across the West gathered in Wounded Knee, on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota, during the winter of 1972-73.
This situation was already tense due to a series of unsolved murders on the reservation, and a struggle between the administration of the Oglala Sioux tribal president, Dick Wilson, and opposition organizations on the reservation, including AIM. Wilson had been bestowed with a $62,000 Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) grant for purposes of establishing a “tribal ranger group” – an entity which designated itself as “Guardians of the Oglala Nation” (GOONs). Wilson’s “goon squads” patrolled the reservation, unleashing a reign of terror against Wilson’s enemies. When victims attempted to seek the protection of the BIA police, they quickly discovered that perhaps a third of its roster – including its head, Delmar Eastman (Crow), and his second-in-command, Duane Brewer (Oglala) – were doubling as GOON leaders or members. For their part, BIA officials – who had set the whole thing up – consistently turned aside requests for assistance from the traditionals as being “purely internal tribal matters,” beyond the scope of BIA authority.
On Feb 28th, 1973, residents of Wounded Knee, South Dakota found the roads to the hamlet blockaded by GOONs, later reinforced by marshals service Special Operations Group (SOG) teams and FBI personnel. By 10 p.m., Minneapolis SAC Joseph Trimbach had flown in to assume personal command of the GOONs and BIA police, while Wayne Colburn, director of the U.S. Marshals Service, had arrived to assume control over his now reinforced SOG unit. Colonel Volney Warner of the 82nd Airborne Division and 6th Army Colonel Jack Potter – operating directly under General Alexander Haig, military liaison in the Nixon White House – had also been dispatched from the Pentagon as “advisors” coordinating a flow of military personnel, weapons and equipment to those besieging Wounded Knee.”
Oglala Tribal VP Tom Poor Bear said of Johnson’s announcement:
“It was a good day for us. It was the first time a US attorney who represents South Dakota ever even responded to us on these cases,” [snip]
“I am glad we have new sets of eyes looking at these cases. We have a lack of trust of the FBI. Back then they were accomplices in these murders. We have people who know firsthand the FBI gave the GOONS guns and bullets so Indians would kill other Indians…”
The report describes many of the techniques used by the FBI and even agents within the KKK to neutralize and destroy black nationalists. As you may remember, the American Indian Movement terrified them, so the FBI secret programs led terror campaigns and assassinated leaders, either directly or indirectly by sowing seeds of doubt and blame among different members and factions. It covers a short list of American political prisoners, including Leonard Peltier, who was wrongfully convicted, imo, of the murder of two FBI agents, and has been in prison for over thirty-five years. No evidence ever linked him to the crime. More info on COINTELPRO can be found here and here.
Glen Ford at the Black Agenda Report wants to know “If the Sioux Can Seek Justice, Why Can’t Blacks?” He reminds us that the The FBI’s counter-intelligence program, or COINTELPRO, has not been officially scrutinized since the Church Committee investigations of 1975-76, and asks:
“But who among the Black Misleadership Class is demanding a reopening of COINTELPRO’s reign of terror in Black America? As the Jericho Movement has stated, “dozens of women and men are still incarcerated upwards of 40 years as a direct result of this heinous program.” Scores of Panthers were murdered directly by police, like Chicago Panther leader Fred Hampton; or in disputes instigated by the FBI, like the Los Angeles shootings of Bunchy Carter and John Huggins by the “US Organization.” The Party itself ultimately fell victim to internal discord – a methodical COINTELPRO campaign of destabilization that produced an unknown number casualties. The Church Committee told the world that COINTELPRO was real, not a figment of paranoid radical imaginations – but there has been no serious effort to exhume the full body of the program’s crimes, much less prosecute the guilty, or free the framed, or compensate the victims, or rewrite the lies of national history” Read more here.
Many of the killings during the Reign of Terror are tragic, but two that won’t be investigated are John Trudell’s family (they were burned to death in Nevada, very possibly as a result of his AIM activism). The other is Anna Mae Aquash, who was another casualty of the movement; other AIM members were convicted of her murder, but trial testimony and affidavits seem confused at best, perjury at worst. Suspicions are that her killing may be a result of whisper campaigns by FBI agents. In any event, Larry Long wrote and recorded this song for her; it was part of an album to raise money for the Leonard Peltier Defense fund.
Embedding has unfortunately been disabled, but this link will take you to the song.
*The irony of the Fibbies being involved in ‘investigating’ crimes they were likely involved in is a bit rich.



128 Comments

The first thing they should do is release Leonard Peltier
Torture in the US Prison System: The Endless Punishment of Leonard Peltier
That’s one of the few reasonable things that I’ve heard of from Eric Holder & Obama. But, since it’s them, it’s likely to be a whitewash, Covering Up the crimes: The timing confirms that it is an election-year ploy. If Obama and Holder had actually gained ethics, it seems that they would have shown it about 3 years earlier.
I’m pretty positive that one’s in the ‘when pigs fly’ territory. Bill Clinton was arguably his last chance for clemency.
I should have kept Hillary’s letter back to me after I’d written Bill asking him to please pardon him; it was a Lulu. Grrrr-plus.
You’re right to be wary, normanb. Oglala Tribal VP Tom Poor Bear is very pleased though. Tribal leaders sent their most recent request for investigations to Johnson in May. Poor Bear says of his announcement:
“It was a good day for us. It was the first time a US attorney who represents South Dakota ever even responded to us on these cases,” [snip]
“I am glad we have new sets of eyes looking at these cases. We have a lack of trust of the FBI. Back then they were accomplices in these murders. We have people who know firsthand the FBI gave the GOONS guns and bullets so Indians would kill other Indians,” (added to post)
That said, OBomba’s having settled the Indian Trust Account for pennies on the dollar to great Librul fanfare…makes a person pretty cautious of much hope.
The Lakota are proving to be some kickass environmental and social activists lately; it’s heartwarming. A group of them even stopped a semi loaded with XL Pipeline equipment from traveling through their reservation recently.
Are we seeing yet another cogitated attempt to look as though something is being done for an oppressed and/or ignored segment of the population? I’m afraid I am jaundiced enough at this point to think trojan horse whenever I see something like this, and even to suppose some backroom quid pro quo in terms of support from media such as Democracy Now, which I remember has featured this subject in the past. (The stunning ‘coverage’ of the latest Supreme Court decision on Democracy Now is for me a case in point.)
We got a bone thrown to the gays, and they snapped it up; then a bone thrown to the students – not so sure about that one, a bone thrown to homeowners, pipeline opposition, etc. etc. It’s not as if this is happening in a vacuum. I do think we have grounds to be sceptical, but thank you very much for bringing this to our attention, Wendy. If something good in terms of righting past wrongs comes about, that at least will be worth the price of admission, and it may stir up the pot – who knows what will float to the surface?
Recommended.
Ah, wendy, so very good to “see” your name on the side-bar.
I saw those photographs and said to my better half that the fire looked to be rather close and I was concerned you might have to leave your home.
Just so you know, I almost always read your diary posts, even if I don’t always comment, for you, along with certain other ones, I count upon to say what must be said, to dare to question those things deserving of such questioning, to stand, fearless, before the mindless manipulations and speak the truth.
As you do here, in this diary post.
More power to ye, lass!!!
;~DW
why am i not impressed? oh, yeah, it’s the holder doj. i will be thrilled to be wrong.
Oh, and highly recommended to the consideration of everyone at FDL, for whatever wendy davis chooses to speak about is always worth my time and consideration … and, I suspect, that sentiment is held broad and deep, by many at the lake …
DW
Long overdue. Worth watching like a hawk.
My prediction. Identified culpability will stop at the reservation boundaries. It will not open the can of worms in the FBI. The ghost of J Edgar will not permit that.
Agree. In all particulars, TD.
DW
Do tell me more about this issue (or others like it) and Democracy Now!, juliania.
Of course it seems like an election ploy, but shoot; there are only 150,000 Sioux among all three family branches. If were all about courting the Injun Vote, they really screwed up (they frequently do). But stopping the Navajo-Hopi water grab, or the increased mining for the coal power plants…or protecting the sacred San Fancisco Peaks area. That might earn them some votes.
Anyhoo, it all may end up causing some heat on the FBI, both their past and present evil deeds in the name of nuking radicalism. Now I’m not reckoning anything like another Church Commission would even elicit any truthful report, but: some pressure and spotlights are never amiss.
Of course, after the Church Committee reports, I think Colby (?) was replaced by…Pappy Bush, lol.
I dunno, j; after following these stories for sooo many years, it’s a tiny bit of welcome news for the ever-beleagured Lakota people (she sayed hopefully).
DECOLONIZE THE FIRST AMERICANS! ;O)
And how nice it is to see you, too, DW, and know that you’re reading, if not commenting. ;o)
We did get evacuated, DW, for 4 nights and 5 days; still oddly pretty traumatized by it all. Bit of PTSD, I reckon. But here we are, and the firefighters protected every house. The northernmost end of Webber blew up big again yesterday, but they brought some of the slurry planes and skycranes back down from Colorado Springs, and just about controlled it.
One of our grandsons was to have come for a couple weeks, and that all killed the plan; but our daughter just called, and she’s on her way now to deliver him. I’m giddy as a schoolgirl, of course.
Do go to my little personal blog; I’ll leave ya a message on the first post, dear.
My guess is that you’ll be 80% right, but even the 20% might generate more demands to investigate more COINTELPRO past and FBI-present deeds.
Same stuff bein’ used against Occupy and internet dissidents, Muslims, etc.
Hope your wrist is healing well, gw.
Figuring that if the FBI would need to investigate…itself, well. Not a bad bet, but as far as I know, this is one tribe whose leaders haven’t been corrupted. They still haven’t touched the massive amount of money being held in trust for ‘buying’ their sacred Black Hills.
So many tribal leaders (and their parents, grandparents) were instructed in ‘doing business’ by corrupt BIA officials. Some learned the lessons far too well. You might get a boot out of watching ‘Powwow Highway’ one day, THD; great Indian humor and politics. ;o)
The corruption of tribal councils began very early with the half-breed offspring of BIA agents, and their progeny still often control tribal government.
I worked for a year on Standing Rock almost 40 years ago, and the tribal chair at that time there was a direct descendant of the first BIA agent for Standing Rock, James McLaughlin. The BIA police chief was the community chair of the community council I was working with, and was so accculturated that he could not speak Dakota; community meetings then had other members of the community council conducting conversations in Dakota as the meeting was going on to figure out how the votes would come out.
With a suppressed culture and bleak economics, behind the scenes politics was the main social activity of the community.
That said, getting land for a kids playground was much easier than in US property law. All I had to do was have the community identify where they wanted it, go look up to see that it was still collective tribal land (they knew, it was), specify the boundaries in Township and Range, and bring the property description to the folks in the community who then pushed it through the community council. Done in two weeks. With a community work day organized by one of the indigenous churches, built the next week.
Would love to see Powwow Highway. Thanks for reminding me of the title.
Whoosh; it hadn’t even entered my mind about ‘BIA officials and direct descendants’. I assume it was the slave-master sort of relationship, or it that too cynical of me?
We’re closest to Ute and to a lesser degree Dine politics, and see the nepotism up close. Now the Hopi and Navajo Tribal Chairmen are selling out their people over water and power plants; so sad to see. Of course, in both those cultures, the idea of a Central Government is antithetical to their clan systems anyway.
How did you come to be working at Standing Rock? And…you might like ‘Smoke Signals’, too. Thomas-Builds-the-Fire is quite the young here. ;o) One of the best developments for Native Americans has been writing, producing and acting in their own films.
Let me see if I can grab a scene about this on youtube. Couldn’t find it, but the theme was: ‘There’s nothing funnier than two Indians watching non-Indians playing Indians on the teevee.’ ;o)
Liberal do-goodism during my “Change the world period” in the 1970s. From 1968 to 1984, I did work on the West Side of Chicago, a white-flight transitioning area in southeast Atlanta, a working class neighborhood in Green Bay, Standing Rock, northside Chicago, rural southwest Georgia, and Appalachian North Carolina. My wife was doing similar work in San Antonio in the barrio before we met in the Dakotas and were married in the community on Standing Rock.
In retrospect, our work did more good to our consciousness of the realities of American life than it did in lasting change in those communities. Poverty was no longer an abstraction. (Still isn’t for that matter.)
I had that experience on Standing Rock. We were at a community gathering watching A Man Called Horse on the TV. One of the community members was an extra in that movie. He got cheers. The rest of the conversation was hilarity at the way the director interpreted “real Indian life”. And this from a director who made an honest effort to understand. In fact, A Man Called Horse, made the suppression of the Sun Dance a religious freedom issues for a lot of white liberals.
Excellent diary. Recommended.
Agreed
Indian humour (here in Manitoba) is extremely dry, and the funniest thing around.
By the way, good book about what the life of Indians in Northern Canada, in the late 1700′s is the Journal of Samuel Hearne his trip from Churchill Manitoba, across the tundra, to the Arctic Ocean.
incredible feats of stamina, ingenuity and bravery. common place to those Indians.
if you’re interested it’s
“Hearne, Samuel – A Journey from Prince of Wales’s Fort … to the Northern Ocean 1795″
It’s easily one of the best books I have read.
Heh; I’d reckoned it was to pay back college loans. That used to be a way to afford school. But how cool of you and your wife. The only vacation our parents ever took my sister and me on was ‘Out West’, lol.
When I saw the visible part of Lakota reservation life near the Badlands…it changed me forever, too.
Yes, that film is iconic Native Americana. Re: real Indians, this scene is up on youtube. I hope you can see it; something’s jerking around my Flashplayer, and I can’t play it. (Hope my laptop’s weirdness doesn’t mess it up for you.)
Ghost Dance flipped out white men, too, speaking of suppression. Brrrr.
Thanks, SD; glad you liked it.
If you are still about wendy, would you do me the favor of seeing if you can connect to Alan Maki’s diary, “Is Obama care good because the right wing opposes it”?
I had been in the process of responding to a comment of TarheelDem’s when Word Press informed me that, under their terms, Alan’s post was “spam”.
I’m curious if FDL is having a “problem” or if Alan is no longer with us as I am informed that “no members were found” … and yet his diary remains listed, I simply cannot access it, so I don’t have a clue as to what is going on …
Thank you, in advance, lass.
DW
I get the same result. I guess that’s what you get when someone hits the “inapprorpriate content” link. Hopefully, the admins will see that it is not spam. I can see how someone could do a lot of mischief by playing differences of opinion that exist on this diverse site. Wonder if the link tags who reported it as spam.
Well, TD, I am also concerned that Alan may no longer be considered a member of FDL … and whether that also attends someone hitting “inappropriate content” link?
DW
It goes to a WordPress ‘spam as per our TOS’ or close page. I tried the ‘Find People’ button, and it says ‘No Members Found’ as it does after a person has been banned.
With that title, it’s hard to think it was offensive to TOS, but a number of posts have been pulled, and folks escorted out the door for reasons I couldn’t grok. So…I dunno; guess we wait for now, see what pops, dear.
Hope you remember how to get to my vanity blogsite; say if ya don’t, I’ll link to it again.
Not to be a blog whore, but I’d hoped Alan might like to read this diary’s news; he has such affinity for First American issues, being a good guy from Minnesota and all.
“… a number of posts have been pulled, and folks escorted out the door for reasons I couldn’t grok.”
Ah, I must have missed too many of those, so I find that to be disheartening news … indeed.
Waiting to see what “pops” …
Appreciation to you and TD.
DW
Manitoba? How great is that, mafr? Humor has been one of the easiest ways for me to gain access to Native people who are naturally so distrustful of me cuz I’m an all-the-way-Whitey. I reckon once their lips twitch a mite…I’ve got ‘em. ;o)
We adopted a Ute babby girl, and that doesn’t sit so well with a lot of Utes, understandably in some ways. But we always connected her to them, their culture, their ceremonies…had some rough times now and again.
We even had a Ute naming ceremony for her; a pretty big deal in their tribe. She’s a bit of an Indian bigot, lol. But she still likes to come here to catch at least one day of their Sundance, does our Supaweya-ma-much. ;o)
Book sounds right up my alley; wish I could still read dead-tree. Love to you in Manitoba; damn: that’s so cool!
x2
Sometimes it’s not the content but the process that is abused. Too many diaries on the same topic with the same arguments can be considered spam. Not that this is true in this case, but on other sites I have seen users misbehave in such a way as to draw a banning just so they can claim to have been “banned by the best”. And the software on some sites is such that a writer can get his own work deleted or flagged as spam in order to feign censorship and stir up a flame war.
BIA…and when I think that John McCain was head of BIA committee investigating Abramoff’s rip off of Indian tribes.Grrrrr!!
I think that at this point we should stop hijacking wendydavis’s thread with this discussion about another thread.
Here’s a really informative site for continuously updated,American Indian news:
Indianz.Com – Your Internet Resource. Your American Indian and Native American news, information, and entertainment resource. Indianz.Com provides up-to-date …
64.38.12.138 – Cached
News
Cobell
Jobs
Trust
Law
In The Hoop
Yeppers. And now McCrankypants and Kyl are arranging to steal Hopi and Dine water rights in perpetuity with Senate Bill 2109. Should be illegal, but…
Fuck him. And them. Decolonize First Americans!
It’s okay, THD; ya never know where a thread might go, and this subject’s important for all of us.
Thanks much, Gitcheegumee; you might like Censored News, too. It’s a superb site, imo, although mine eyes have some trouble with the colors and fonts.
Realitychecker, wbgonne, Cavlan again (I saw his comment on Jane’s post that led to that; it was a bit too cute, although it could have been read different ways: he’s pretty careless about language, as I can be when I’m in a hurry, but still…, in the context…ya could see it comin’), Indyvoternews; that’s all I remember. Someone with ***prsn as a screen name.
And Hell; here I am, and I’m uglier than all of them put together; go figure. ;o)
You’re more about content and not as cantankerous on meta. If you work hard…;-)
Well, I happened to witness Cavlan’s cuteness do him in … in real time.
I did not know about rc and wbgonne, and had been looking for rc these past few days wondering if he were okay … so I appreciate the “news”.
Cannot help but feel that many of us, still at FDL, will miss rc and wbgonne’s presence, here … of course, I still miss Oklahoma Kiddo and his wife, Lahoma …
Ah well …
To the disappeared, where ever they might be, a salute of appreciation, affection, and hopes that they all fare well, Namaste, brothers and sisters, Namaste …
DW
About time such an investigation was done. Worthy of watching closely, although I don’t expect much. (Hard to ignore the history).
Thank you WD, as is the case with your diaries, they always draw my attention and never let me down.
Highly rec’d.
Glad you are home, and things being such that you could write a diary.
Wendy, wasn’t there,somewhat recently, like a billion dollar settlement owed to certain tribes by the US government-has that ever been paid out?
My first thought when reading your headline was about this settlement..my second thought,well,there must be oil/gas/gold under the tribal lands of the beleagured AI being besieged.Just mho.
Henri 3, Le Vet
Sometimes the meta goes like this.
Heh,heh, my memory is better than I remembered~~
bmaz did an incredible post back in 200.Here’s the intro(yours truly posted the final comment…(always late to the party):
Native tears
By: bmaz Thursday August 7, 2008 4:53 pm
Via the Washington Post, the verdict has been rendered at long last in the Cobell litigation
A federal judge ruled Thursday that American Indian plaintiffs are entitled to $455 million in a long-running trust case, a fraction of the $47 billion they wanted.
…
Robertson’s final number is close to government estimates and far from the billions sought by plaintiffs in the 12-year trial. The lawsuit _ filed on behalf of a half-million American Indians and their heirs _ claims they were swindled out of billions of dollars in oil, gas, grazing, timber and other royalties overseen by the Interior Department since 1887.
…
At issue was how much of the royalty money was withheld from the Indian plaintiffs over the years, and whether it was held in the U.S. treasury at a benefit to the government.
…
Because many of the records have been lost or destroyed, it has been up to the court to decide how to best estimate how much the individual Indians, many of whom are nearing the end of their lives, should be paid.
…
The government proposed paying $7 billion partly to settle the Cobell lawsuit in March 2007, but that was rejected by the plaintiffs.
In a January decision, Robertson said the Interior Department had “unreasonably delayed” its accounting of the money owed to landholders and that the task was ultimately impossible. He called the June trial to consider whether money was owed, and, if so, how much was owed.
The class-action suit deals with individual Indians’ lands and covers about 500,000 Indians and their heirs.
Native Tears | Emptywheel
Aug 7, 2008 … The lawsuit _ filed on behalf of a half-million American Indians and their … The government proposed paying $7 billion partly to settle the Cobell lawsuit in March 2007, but that was rejected by the plaintiffs. …. Good question, Rayne re: McCain’s history w/the BIA. ….. The Tribes now will go after the DOI.
emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/native-tears/
Well, I’m about as cantankerous a curmudgeon as may rollick around and about, TD, as you, not doubt, may well know.
It must be my lucky stars or simply superior dumb luck which has permitted my continued presence here … at least, I think I’m still “here” …
Now, I admit to making use of a certain, apparent “politeness”, yet that is owing to my essential perversity, and arises from the fact that I am little moved by what “names” others may “address” my way … as it is the quality of thought, and the absence of deceitful manipulation which I respect and admire in others … and, as you suggest, our wendy doth excel in both. Of course, I think precisely the same thing about rc and wbgonne, so my “perspective” ain’t worth very much … especially not knowing the peculiar particulars of the “situations” which led to their disappearances.
Are we all now well-advised to mind our words and beware the Jabberwokeries?
Recently, markfromireland commented on one of Mason’s diaries that FDL “permits” ad hominen attacks … apparently, and I consider, most unfortunately, that seems to be so … however, I am sore perplexed to imagine what transgressions (as well as against whom or what) led to the loss, for such I consider it, of rc and wbgonne?
Anyhoo, wendy, my apologies for maundering on, so …
It is just, simply, concerning …
Perhaps, I have expected too much from this site, and therefore I must now recalibrate my sense of the role that FDL might play in the struggle for a better, more humane, more just, and sustainable world?
DW
It’s not about courting the Native vote. It’s about polishing some sort of liberal bona fides for the election season in such a way that it doesn’t impact the money of anyone important.
Like I said on the other thread – a passing paternalistic concern over indigenous issues is often featured in the “I’m a hip and urban liberal!” brochures. What better way to make the Democrat who’s party just screwed over their countrymen on pretty much every issue that impacts contemporary life feel good about voting for the party than righting a horrible wrong … maybe … someday … but not in the concrete before election. See, actually *getting* it requires you to send him back to office (now, would those mean old Republicans keep this investigation open for you? well? WOULD THEY!?!1111?11!).
And, with that, I’d like to take this opportunity to announce to all loyal Democrats the formation of a new bridge and beachfront brokerage service. We’ve got ‘em in all the HOT locations; bridges in Brooklyn, oceanfront in Arizona … get in NOW for a low, LOW price – before it’s too late!
Based on the transactions that I saw, what rc did was keep tugging at the same issue like a dog with a bone. He could not just let go. IMHO it was behavior that was his issue. And hijacking threads when the author asked him to cool it.
wd has let us get far OT here, but that is her decision. Most times the bannings on almost every site I’ve witnessed bannings has been for behavior, not for content. Even ad hominems tend to be tolerated unless that is the only message–a form of baiting. Or when it descends into a flame war. And flame wars are what moderators are struggling to reduce because it drives away readers and commenters.
And one thing one nevers knows is what goes on behind the scene with emails.
These judgment calls are tough to Monday morning quarterback when one does not know all of the facts.
In some states, if you’ve got a base vote, large Native American turnout can provide the margin. Both North Dakota and South Dakota have operated that way in the past.
Oh, BTW, Obey … here’s one. This is totally from the Nudge playbook.
Choice architecture.
Perhaps in the past. That is obviously not the case this election – or at least not in the Dakotas.
In what state do you see that being a potential factor?
Those who engage in ad hominen attack, which is a long-despised rhetorical “fallacy”, attacking the person and not the idea, question, or comment, do so primarily to silence those views which they detest, and, as well, to diminish the “standing” of those whom they assault in the eyes of others.
Those who engage in this tactic do so intentionally, not because they are “rude” or lacking in “people skills”, but because they INTEND to do so.
Jane has made clear that she expects FDL to contribute to the debate, the discussion our time and society most desperately needs … presumably, she means it to be, on FDL, an essentially civil and rational debate …?
Frankly, those who stoop to ad hominen attack … have nothing else, no facts, no perspective, no rational evidence to support their position and therefore must engage in the use of fallacious argument.
If FDL permits ad hominen attack, then it must also be willing to tolerate those who point out such attacks when they occur, and as well, to remind everyone else, that evidence and facts outweigh emotional appeals and the intentional, direct disparagement of others …
I am somewhat curious as to the issue that rc worried like a bone and who, precisely, took offense at the repetition, TD, not to open old wounds but to understand what happened, and, possibly, why … which you have, in part, already addressed.
If, consistent patterns of “abuse”, of patience or propriety, or even of other persons is the issue, then there must be a coherent consistency in the “punishments” meted out … otherwise, a few are permitted to scoff at the rules and make mock of reasoned discourse with total impunity … a situation which we, as a society are now facing … writ large … with all the consequences which attend …
DW
In this election it could be a factor in the US Senate race in North Dakota.
I would say that deriding someone as an “Obamabot” is an ad hominem attack in the absence of other arguments. I have seen that in comments; I don’t think it is tolerated, but I have seen it enough.
rc was worried about the continuing controversy over the stuff that Jane addressed a week or so ago. I had thought that settled it. But the comments in the thread for that diary seem that folks were still pushing. Causing three rapid bannings. I did not know that rc was caught up in that but I can imagine him not letting the issue go.
ROTFLMAO! Yes, dear, I hear you. As I said above, settling Cobell v. Salazar was heralded by Libruls as ‘a thing worth trumpeting’, even though it was settled for peanuts per billion (hyperbloe, but srsly). Our daughter will get a miniscule portion of it, too. And it’s better than nothin’ for poor First Americans. But nothing like what it would have been if they hadn’t stolen the money.
But as for this review process? I srsly don’t think people give one good goddam, and there are probably a handful of people who know any of this Oglala history. Those who do: we know it well and have been sharing the outrage for decades.
Just googled for hits that picked up the story. Hardly any, not that I’m a perfect Googler by any means.
The facts.
How are we to know them?
Who will share them, the “hidden” facts, the ones we cannot know unless we are privy to them?
Is that not also a problem our civil society now faces, to dire consequence and the destruction of trust? That the people do not know the facts and the government does not want the people to know the facts, which is the whole and entire purpose of today’s “national security state”, is it not?
Trust is hard to regain, once it has been lost … or squandered, whether intentionally or not.
Trust is central to honest and open debate, else there is no point in it, it being merely a sham, a kabuki, intended to deceive and manipulate.
Does that not sum up the behavior if not the “content” of the current political class?
Ah, well …
Perhaps this is not the time or place?
I wonder where and when such a thing might be?
DW
Wendy — glad you’re safe and can imagine how much fun you’ll have with the youngun’.
I am curious, TD, if “Obamabot” is an ad hominem attack when applied specifically to an individual, then is “Fucking Retard” (whatever its present political “currency”), when applies to a specific individual also not an ad hominem attack, quite regardless of context and “other arguments”?
I have seen that term, and other clearly demeaning terms used by a certain front-pager, on more than one occasion. I have also pointed out in real time to that very front-pager that it is not evidence of best practice to do so and diminishes FDL’s reputation for fairness and civility, that it reflects not insight or understanding but a lack of anything of substance to counter what has been offered up by others … despite how tried the “patience” of said front-pager might be.
Frankly, were those behaviors limited to the Fron-Pager’s own threads, as an element of “style” or “humor”, though I see ad hominem attacks and other fallacies designed to manipulate how others think to be neither stylish nor funny, I should be very much less concerned about the “example” being set.
Ah, well …
;~DW
Partly, bootsie, the announcement provided a springboard to let readers know, and check further into at the links, this hideous history so few know. Also, the COINTELPRO info and FBI dastardly deeds, and reminders that there actually was an actual Church Committee investigation, much as there once was an actual Pecora Commission with teeth, broadcast LIVE to let Americans know what was what. And they got pissed, and good regulatory policy came out of it.
That all this is an echo forward is hopefully not lost on readers. If there is one theme I want to hammer home, it’s: We are They now, or at least are nearing that condition.
Thanks for the welcome home; we’re still kinda messed up, but we’re tryin’ to get ourselves straight, and havin’ kids around will help us adjust to The Real, yes?
love to you,
wd
The three-year-old just let me kiss the crown of her dear little head, and Ja hugged the stuffin’ outta me…and I him when they arrived. Gonna be a great visit.
We had irrigation boots for them, and Mr.wd brought home some small shovels; they’re out sttin’ water now, lol.
Thanks so much, Beach. ;o)
Of course, you are correct in your judgement IMHO. But I rarely read that diary unless I’m in a real wanna see red meat attacks on the right mood. Most of the time the issues are trivial IMHO. Your “Ah well” is the right approach to my mind. Nuff said about this.
Ah, wendy, how lucky you ALL are.
May the visit be joyous and ever-lasting in the heart for each of you.
Enjoy, even if you’ve not as much time to spend with the rest us … the usual suspects.
;~DW
This thread’s gettin’ away from me as far as answering comments, so sorry. I need to see if the little uns might take a bit of a nap with me. I’ll see you in a bit (she sayed hopefully).
But ‘Obamabot’ as an ad hominem attack? Yikes!
Have fun today with the grandkids.
Just a pet-peeve. Ad hominem doesn’t mean personal attacks. It means an assertion in debate that because a position is held by a person, the person’s belief (or unrelated properties of that person) implicitly negate the validity of the position.
Saying “John believes that, therefore it can’t possibly be true; he likes country music.” is an ad hominem argument. OTOH, saying “You sound obnoxious as hell, have big ears and are about as dumb as a box of rocks.” is simply flaming someone.
In context:”Obama’s policy is wrong because those supporting it are Obamabots.” Ad hominem …. “You are just an Obamabot!” not.
Like I said. Just a pet-peeve. Carry on.
(Ironically. Another big pet-peeve of mine: grammar-nazis. So, now, I must go find a fittingly self-loathing occupation for a few minutes; ta.)
I’ll take your word for it. Don’t know enough to speculate beyond the presidential outlook.
You are correct. In fact, the context was dismissive of a referenced party not on the thread.
Actually, kgb999, you are precisely correct in your definition of “ad hominem” attack, but name-calling and other such derision is a lesser form, well-deserving, by now, its own pet appellation …
(You see what keeping such “pets” leads to? I have a similar menagerie, and am sometimes short of short leashes …)
;~DW
Great job Wendy, again. Tweeted. Recommended.
Thank you for this important news, Wendy.
FYI, reportedly, The Longest Walk 4 commences on July 15, 2012, from Washington, D.C.
(more info at http://returntoalcatraz.com)
We should remember that the less noted pro hominem is just as much fallacious reasoning as the ad hominem, and perhaps more insidious as it carries the sheen of politesse to paper over its fallaciousness. Through the pro hominem you see bad policy frequently defended (see Obamabot).
Ain’t that a fine one, timesticking? Such a tragedy being remembered and honored. The Indigenous will lead the way out of this hell, imo. And I’m biased, but for years I’ve reckoned that the women will hold the lights the highest. With all due respect to the male gender, of course. ;o)
Wow,dee dub, i got modded for giving you a compliment at the book salon.
When I look at threads from a few years back,and I see so many who no longer post…well, ya know…
Well, thank you; a little bit more cut-and-paste than usual, but I’m playin’ with one brain tied behind my back. ;o)
Stay strong and well, Boo.
p.s. Heh. Boo is our nickname for our daughter. ;o) ‘The Boo’, too.
Yes, I got a wee reminder for responding, Gitchee.
We got each other modded.
;~DW
Well, DW; I say thou art fusty idle-headed jolt-head. Would the fountain of your mind were clear again, that I might water an ass at it, thou dissembling fat-kidneyed fustilarian!
Thou art just fortunate that I adore you, I tell you!
Well good, I like your take much better than my cynical one, Wendy. (Blame it on the heat – a bit better today.) What I can remember from Amy is that she has done stories on these happenings in the past, since that would be how I came to even know about the matter.
I ALWAYS said we would wind up making a helluva lotta mischief together!
Thanks Wendy for allowing some fellowship to shine forth on your thread…
I’d thought folks were gettin’ pretty on edge, too, THD. My guess was that rc’s satirical post on the many Trayvon Miller case posts and comments was what did it. It was pulled, then he was gone; so it’s just speculation.
But I’d thought it was hilarious. In order to get to vote guilty or innocent, ya had band your head on the sidewalk, etc. Someone said he was advocating violence. Beat the hell outta me anyone could see it that way. But not all sense my particular form of humor, either (as I’ve punked you about now and again, lol).
I don’t comment much on the MotherShip posts, but I do sometimes read, and I remember him apologizing for Going Brooklyn a few times.
And by the by: your mother had a smooth forehead. (Klingon insult) ;o)
‘Tis the asphalt, I’ll wager ye, lass.
Clear as mud I be, an open puddle of exposed opacity … subject to the predations of wandering wee or great un-timorous beasties alla time …
Now, shoo, hither thyself yon, as youguns await.
We’ll blabber along quite well, or half-assed, at least, in your well-deserved absence …
;~DW
Not that Amy provided some quid pro quo? Srsly, I’m not objecting to any oddness that she might have been involved with, I just wondered what you might have seen with that Eagle Eye of yours.
And yes; if I’m following your drift, it will be horrid if Tom Poor Bear made some pact that has any hidden side to it. The Times piece said that the most recent letter was sent by tribal leaders in May. Yep, suspicious timing. But if it brings some sunlight, it’s potentially good.
Johnson chairs the Native American issues committee, son of Tim Johnson; don’t remember his politics, or if they matter a whit, really. And: are there really some boatload of Native voters who were polled as Undecided? I could be dead wrong, but they may be as captive to Dems as most blacks are.
Thought I had just posted but I guess I didn’t submit – Wendy, I like your comment better than mine, less cynical! Must be the heat, I guess, though it is improved today.
I just remembered lots of anniversary type following of Leonard Peltier’s case by Amy, knew she had done so frequently, so I went to democracynow.org and found those, a lengthy list. I picked out the following headline from a 2006 show she did:
“And today marks the 30th anniversary of the imprisonment of Native American activist Leonard Peltier. Rallies are being held across the country to call for his release. He was convicted of killing of killing two FBI agents during a shoot-out on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in 1975. But Peltier has long maintained his innocence. This is from an interview in 2000 I did with him from jail. We will post an MP3 of the full interview on our website democracynow.org. In a recent statement to supporters, Peltier said “We are all geared up to file more appeals on new information my legal team has found while reviewing withheld documents. I want you to know that we will continue to fight for my freedom.”
The last story she did was of his being put into solitary confinement because of two minor infractions, an interview with his lawyer who said his 66 year old client was in ill health so this was unfair.
It’s definitely been an important subject to Amy.
I would also say just from my NM tribal contacts that there is a very close bond across the different tribes. What happens from one end of the spectrum to the other does really matter.
Aye, Gitchee, together we could raise a tear (or elicit tears, of one kind or another) … and no doubt, even unknowing, have done so …
Ain’t wendy a peach?
Don’t let on that I’ve said that, of course …
;~DW
LOL!
Ach! They all went to town to visit the storage unit (don’t ever rent one; they’re as evil as everyone warns they are) to find booster seats for the Munchkins, and other little treasures their mama want to take home with her.
But yes; sometimes ya speak in riddles by my lights. But I sure do love thy accent, beastie.
Mum’s the word,m’dear!
Moccasin Telegraph, it’s called. This issue may resonate further than I’ve guessed. I sent it to Brenda Norrell at Censored News; last I looked, she hadn’t written it up. Dunno if that means anything or not. Big doin’s among Indigenous Canadians just now, God love ‘em.
(We won’t let on; shhhhh.)
More of a prune, though, methinks. (Is that an ad hominem attack?) Ack!
No, that was a nasty, unfounded surmise of mine concerning some elasticity in her coverage of the Supreme Court ruling on Obamacare. She spent a lot of time on the official line, so nasty me thought maybe that was a quid for a Lakota quo. I have absolutely no evidence to support that, and as I say, it must be the heat. (I made bread in the garage yesterday and completely forgot till this morning I had done so. Take me with a huge grain of salt therefore! I’m an oldie and not a goodie sometimes.)
Another place you might find some links to the AIM story from a native perspective would be the radio program ‘Native America Calling’.
By the way, I am seeing Alan’s post over in recent diaries. And I really felt that each of the different diaries on that subject looked at things from a slightly different perspective on the ruling, so all were important, even and especially the comments from folk who actually will be helped (they hope) in immediate and life-enhancing ways.
That’s what makes it all so very hard to disentangle truth from halftruth, and with my heat infected brain I think I will just join Elijah in the wahtah. (And for any in the east where we are sending the high as fast as we can push it, a bucket of cold water on the front porch is an amazing refreshment for the feet, believe me. That and taking a cold shower with your clothes on. Of course, it helps to have near zero humidity so they evaporate fast, so maybe that second one is a no go.)
Did yer dough look like Lucy’s when she used 10 cakes of yeast instead of 1? I’ve forgotten, too. Ish; what a mess.
I was concerned about Amy and (shhh: don’t let kgb see this: that nation we R2P’d.)
Nah; you are always wonderful, juliania. And the movie whose name I couldn’t recall was ‘Off the Map’. I swear you’d love it. Joan Allen.
Yes, they were instrumental in keeping the Tarsands pipeline from Canadian ports.
Well, my mistake I guess – Alan’s post is under review.
As to the bread, no, it was okay – I cheat and use a breadmaker – it just thought it had been abandoned, was settling in for the duration. But in the heat, like the Colonials, I cook in an outer building. Got my crockpot out there as well.
Enjoy the lovely littlies – you certainly deserve it!
And lovely to ‘see’ you, DW! It’s always through the looking glass when you’re around.
Kurt, I had somehow missed your comment.
I agree with your assessment completely, and note that pro hominem “argument” is, most definitely, on the rise, once again …
DW
Ah, juliania, it is likewise wonderful to encounter your comments, as, for a while, I was concerned about “suggestions” that you had determined not to comment much, any longer at FDL, with the exception, as I understood it, of wendy’s threads.
So, glad and relieved I am to “see” you and not to have to search out rabbit-holes in the hopes of finding evidence of your presence, wisdom, and well-honed wit.
;~DW
Little bird told me about your comment at Book Saloon. Thank you.
;~DW
x2
I don’t know how much of a factor NA votes will be in the election, but Heidi Heitkamp has a good chance of winning.
Ain’t wendy a peach? Ain’t she…? ;-)
Great to see you’re doing well, wendy…! *g*
Mahalo, Tuttle. ;o)
(prune, dear; prune…)
Always trying to put a new” wrinkle” on things, are you then, lass?
(Besides, and egad! We’re talkin’ peaches, not plums … pudding things in “perspective” …)
;~DW
Go to bed, David. ;o)
Night night.
Night, everyone. Stay strong and healthy; love everyone you can.
;~DW (even if I’ve “said” it before …)
Thanks for the diary, Wendy. I think most Americans, particularly the younger generations, don’t even know about this episode, and don’t really understand the entire COINTELPRO thing. They don’t understand what happened to black America (and is still happening). An oppressed people often is at greatest risk of its future generations forgetting the oppression and assimilating to ease the pain. Or just letting itself die off when assimilation is not an option.
What the FBI has done here and in countless other scenarios is reminsicent of the ongoing way that the British government funds paramilitary organizations and gives intelligence reports on activists in Ireland, making it easier for those paramilitary groups to execute the attorney, author, or politician that gets too cozy with non-Protestant elements in the six counties. I don’t know how this probe is going to even begin to make a difference when there are thousands of layers of deceit and intrigue and blood with the US government suppression of the Native American culture and population. It still happens with other population groups and ideologies. Environmentalists, Peace Activists, and even Occupy participants are on the list. Anything that disturbs the authority of the tyrant becomes “fair game” to taken out. Law goes out the window. I would love to hope that this probe is the beginning of real change.
But then, I already blew my change on hope in 2008, and now I’m broke of both! :)
Mornin’, marsdragon; good to see you.
Interesting analogy to the British and the Irish. Bringing up the concept of assimilation has my brain pinging through all sorts of memories concerning, at the core, whether this country is ‘a stew’ (yish on the image) or a ‘melting pot’. The outrage of some who hate the ‘hyphenated American identifications’, ‘get over your (name cultural group) past’, equaling ‘stop being pissed at the American system’.
The early pressure to assimilate must have been so great a generation or two ago that it’s hard to even find Mexican-Americans in our valley who even want to acknowledge their roots. When our kids were small, both Mr.wd and I did a lot of multicultural events for their school to increase awareness that might lead to that sorta hideous concept of ‘tolerance’ for people (esp. kids) of other colors and cultures… It was like pulling teeth on both ends: school administration AND finding parents and other community members to participate in events and presentations.
Sorry to just go in that direction, but I’ve sat here for 30 minutes now lost in memories and snagging onto books I’d read on the subject of multiculturalism. I’ll hang up the phone now; give ya a break.
Thanks for the input.
Decolonize! ;o)
If I make a comment that a post or comment is just plain stupid, and in once case I back it up with a counter-argument, one case I don’t bother, how does that fit into the definitions? And should my comments in either case, be moderated?
I’m pretty sure it was something like those (and if memory serves, it was the former) that got one/some of OFG’s comments pulled on a post or posts, and he vacated the premises over it. I miss his comments, and while I respect his right in asking on one of my threads not to make a big deal out of his leaving, I really am wondering what the thinking on this is. I just can’t get to exercised about it in the scheme of things, having had far worse insults hurled my way over the years.
Ubetchaiam complained that a long comment of his on a fatster thread was removed, and he couldn’t understand why. I got pretty tangled up trying to decipher how he knew that/saw that, but he seems to be gone for now, too.
Please let me be clear about this, wendy, as I needed the night to think about it … you are saying that a satirical piece of writing, a diary, was sufficient to result in rc’s disappearance?
Yet none of us really know what happened? For certain? And all we, you, TD, and the rest of us “have” is the awareness that rc is no longer with us?
What of wbgonne? What did wbgonne do?
Frankly, I am finding all of this “business” to be very disturbing and antithetical to what I have long perceived the aims of FDL to be. That is, to serve as best example as a place where rational and reasonable people might exchange ideas, concerns, insights and hopes, as well as worries, fears, and even despair, as we ALL seek to create, or rebuild, or fashion a better, more humane, and JUST world … as a counter to arbitrary and secret power, to hidden agendas and blatant propaganda.
It is my sense that such is Jane’s vision as well …
However, of late, this site seems afflicted with a seemingly arbitrary “handling” of certain posters, it almost feels like a purge, and I do not say that easily or in cavalier fashion, but simply because it seems not to reflect a site robust in its sense of itself’ but rather one suffering a form of disentegration and dissolution … a disengagement from its former “energies” into something, somehow, very different.
Lest this be construed as attack or assault upon FDL or its management, let me assure everyone that my concerns are not that at all, my concerns, my worries are not that FDL is “bad”, but that it seems, no longer, to aspire to be the best, which also requires both tolerance and fairness, not the appearance of those things, but the substance of those things.
Perhaps, my concerns will get me banned?
I raise these concerns not to “test” that possibility, but because I care, as do many, many others here, that FDL remains a powerful influence in a time of broader dissolution and grave danger, that FDL remain a refuge for the politically “dispossessed”, for those seeking better possibilities in a world where there are fewer possibilities every single day.
I hold that this nation, that is, the civil society and the human beings who comprise that society, is facing its gravest challenge.
And until, or if, we surmount it, any who claim that we have been in worse “places” or survived more perilous times are whistling in the dark and making assumptions about “responses”, courage, and tenacity, that have yet to be fully tested and by no means are certain to “pass” … as, at this time, FAILURE, is, if we are honest, almost as likely as what any of us might call “success”.
The condition of the larger world is depressing enough, that we have no need of despair (and fear of banishment) at FDL … not about the larger world, but about the collapse of this smaller society.
Some may be angry with me for “making waves”, for not being quiet about those things which I do not, which I fully admit, that I do not understand, yet I am of the mind that to fail to speak the truth of what appears to “be” is the greater disservice to a community of individuals, all of whom I respect, and many of whom I truly appreciate and even love, to use a term that some might consider offensive.
Can we handle the truth, all of us, or not?
Understand, in the larger world we are told, “No, you cannot handle the truth, so do not be nosy, respect your betters and trust their judgment, for they know things you don’t know, and they have your best interests at heart.”
I think very few of us find that perspective acceptable.
Now, at FDL there are no “betters” and none who are “less” …
That suggests that the truth and actual facts are a “currency”, here, are valued and respected above manipulation and appeals to unthinking emotion and that the truth and facts are shared, not to the “advantage” of some or a few, but to the advantage and advancement of each and every one of us who is a member of this community.
Now, there is a range of “people skills” among us, but if there is not a fundamental respect of each member by every other member, then we are right back where we started, on the outside looking in …
That is a lonely place to be.
And it destroys community.
Alone, we may accomplish little, no matter how skilled and wise we may be, while together, we can change the world.
The truth matters, facts matter.
Their absence leads to speculation, to worry, to distrust.
I know, I seem to harp on this “trust” thingie.
Trust, my friends, is a basic human necessity … it is not a frill nor a luxury to be reserved for special occasions …
Trust is the measure of individuals AND institutions.
Its lack is the collapse of civil society and a descent into barbarism and blatant manipulation.
(I shall have to reconsider the satirical diary I have been contemplating this past month … as a sense of humor seems to have wandered away from this place and even the most gentle of deprecation arouses, so it seems, as I have observed, annoyance and disgust …)
Frankly, I expect no “answers” … no clarifications, no address of the issues which I consider I have fairly, thoughtfully, and compassionately raised (although I am prepared to be surprised), wendy, on this thread of yours, presuming on our friendship and mutual respect. I apologize to you if that connection should cause you grief in future.
My sincere appreciation and great respect to everyone at FireDogLake.
DW
Always good to see your fonts, DW – and I have missed them, for they have been scant of late. Although, I do confess, I understand.
Just as in a greater society, as a whole, when one sees one’s neighbor “disappeared” and one knows not the why’s, the how’s or the wherefore’s, one becomes, in a self protective way, more guarded, more filtered in their responses. In the larger society, the use of disappearance is a time worn, time tested and effective means of silencing all voices – not just those who dissent. Everyone speaks and acts through a filter. That filter being the only means of protecting oneself, one’s loved one’s, etc. Having no “facts” (stones in the stream) for the “truth” of things to be carried over and thus to be understood (the water itself) all along the “banks of the stream of communication” become confused. Understanding is a key element to all forms of communication, because without it, said filters become more pervasive and more difficult to pierce.
Trust, as you say in your comment above, is a necessary cornerstone for all human interaction. Without trust – there can be no truth and facts become bludgeons, instead of support for truth.
WD – because I so enjoy your writing, your point of view, and your gift for bringing aspects of the larger picture that otherwise may be missed, where else do you post your musings? I am missing too many whose “voices” I once found here. And I would not like to miss yours as well.
Ah, walkinboots, you have, most eloquently, laid out the “consequence”, for it is that self-imposed “filter”, that guardedness, which first afflicts words and then, if it continues long enough, the very quality of thought itself …
It is most exquisite poetry you have used to describe the “process”, the “drift”, and the downstream result, which is nothing less than unreasoning fear, for such it most assuredly becomes and is.
Such fear benefits not the many, ever, but always the few, and it stunts growth and possibility … it robs us of our birth-right as free and responsible beings and shunts any celebration of life to the side, allowing rigid control, brutal manipulation, and blatant confiscation to hold unchallenged, unquestioned sway.
Thank you, walkinboots, for understanding my concerns and for daring to share, with your beautiful command of words and images, the human truth of things.
Namaste
DW
No, no, DW; I simply said it was my guess, and tried not to jump to:
‘Post hoc, ergo propter hoc’. There are other possibilities, for sure, or a combination of all of them. All of this can knot my forehead. You may have read my concerns, too, about ubetcha and OldFatGuy that they expressed on some of my posts. ‘Suck it up and comment’ didn’t seem to work as a response, lol!
DWB – in response to your query: here is a link to a further discussion/explanation of the events that led up to RC’s banning.
http://www.kgblogz.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=251:a-case-study-in-absurd-hysterics&Itemid=1#comment-3243
He has moved over to another site where some of us have been blogging for awhile. hope you will find it helpful in understanding the basis on which he was banned, and so make your own evaluation of the merits (or demerits) of that move on the part of FDL management.
Best regards,
Obey
got it WD, and I do thank you.
Indeed , We Are the They they speak of…
I notice I figure prominently in rc’s comment. If rc wants to put me in the role of a heavy here, fine with me, I don’t give a rat’s ass.
Got it, wendy, and thank you!
As I say, none of us really know what “happened”, all we know. for certain, is that certain people are now gone, disappeared, removed from our “small” universe, here.
And I do not consider it presumptuous, disrespectful, or destructive to this site to ask why we don’t know and why there seems to be neither clarity nor transparency about certain disappearances.
I happened to be “present”, though NOT commenting, when OldFatGuy stated that he intended to “remove” himself, from further participation, after a certain “kerfluffle” …
Are you now telling me that ubetchaiam is also no longer with us?
My mind reels and my heart aches if this is so …
And forgive me, but I wonder why all this is happening … yet I am becoming increasingly concerned that so many here seem not only unconcerned but inclined to behave as if nothing untoward is occurring, that nothing of moment or significance is reflected in these “changes” and “actions” … that it is no one’s business or concern … that, “response”, I find chilling and, most definitely, disturbing.
Perhaps the “wisest” thing is not to care?
I do not think I can, in good conscience, do that.
Why? Because if I were disappeared I would want someone to care, to wonder and even to question what had occurred … and why … foolish, naive, idealistic little ole me.
As you know, wendy, I am not good at biting my tongue, at seeing something disturbing and looking away … I do try to maintain a semblance of respect for others, and a patience with the diversity of response, in fact I take pleasure in that diversity, which is in itself a perversion, perhaps?… yet, I am feeling a deep disquiet in my bones and soul and an unwillingness to ” … suck it up and move along because it is just a thing …” because “it” is people whom I care about and the “process” of their disappearance ought to be open and forthright, and perhaps it is, and I am simply not sufficiently intelligent or informed to grasp it?
I like to imagine that I actually have something of value to offer to others at this site … yet I consider that the “disappeared” also had and provided, so far as I am concerned, insights and understandings of great value, at least to me.
It would appear that those with power, here, disagree with that assessment … and have “done something” about it.
I do not know what happened to rc, to wbgonne.
I do not know why, or for what reason, Alan was disappeared, whether it is permanent or only temporary.
Not knowing, not having any means of understanding what seem, from my perspective, to be arbitrary and capricious decisions is not a good thing and I sincerely hope that someone in management will take it upon themselves to consider taking the time and making the effort to help all of us understand and thereby allow the rest of us, those who are concerned, to decide what that might mean for our future attendance and “contributions” as a commenter on these threads and as a member of this community.
It may be, that as a private site, though one connected to the “commons” of the net, that FDL feels no obligation to “explain”.
That is this site’s “right”, if it so chooses.
In which case, silence will “speak” much more loudly than words, at least to me.
I await further “developments”.
DW
Thank you, Obey.
DW
Two nights after we got Home, I had a dream, bootsie. My long-dead mother was driving me down a wide, bending river…there were minor rapids, wider bays…and on she sped. I’d never known her to know how to operate a boat, though we lived on Lake Erie when I was a kid. Can’t say why I decided to trust her after first being so taken aback.
The other passenger must have been a tween male child, unknown to me. In the course of some of his questions, I told him that I was very unsure what I might do next with my life; can’t remember I laughed over the implied equivalent of: I dunno what I wanna be when I grow up’ or not.
I’m still feeling pretty off-kilter from the fire and evacuation…as is Mr.wd. I saw a little buck with his head obscured by the apple leaves he was munching the other morning…. my mind said ‘dun-colored horse’. Things like that. But I’m very unsure of myself, my future…and what I do know is that my life’s worth is (for better or worse) tied up with my identity as…a blogger. That the ground here seems to be trembling so…causes me distress. That some of my friends here are absent now, for all the varied reasons, does too.
I’ve kinda take a shine to some of you here…ya hear me? ;o)
So….it’s obviously a good time for me to regroup a bit, play with my grandbabbies…and see what pops. I do usually only what I can’t not write, sorta like knowing I used to need a sweatlodge ceremony when I needed to sing a song. Ya know? Yeah; you do. ;o)
You’re a treat, bootsie.
wd
In a later comment, SD, rc makes clear that he holds no grudge nor ill-will against you, that he continues to to respect you, and hopes to have the opportunity of speaking with you again, just “…to clear the air.”
I do not consider, from what I read at the link which Obey provided, that rc holds you, in any way, responsible for his “disappearance”.
Namaste
DW
I shall pass on your passionate indifference, SD.
;0)
I posted this only in direct response to a request from DWB.
If however, you should want to respond to any perceived unfairness or inaccuracy in the remarks yonder, I encourage you to do so over at the link provided. Anyone is more than welcome to register (as I think you already are), the filtering process existing only to weed out spambots. The FDL “heavies”, as you call them, seem to look on any further comment regarding their commenting/posting/banning policy here with displeasure, so it seems most prudent to do so elsewhere.
Tricky issue. If FDL bans a commenter and gives an explanation to the whole community I think I can safely say there will be cry of censorship. There are rules for posting here and I’ve seen arguments over comments that were in clear violation of one or more of those rules. Should FDL explain to the community why a commenter is banned? I don’t have an answer to that. I see reasons to do so and reasons not to do so.
I had forgotten I had registered there but have never visited to see who had left the Lake and gone to kg’ blog as someone suggested. LOL
As for my passionate indifference, anybody who knows me knows that I don’t care one whit what others think of me. I am very content with who I am and feel no need to prove anything to anybody.
Yes on ubetcha and OFG, but I dunno whether it’s temporary or not. Ubethcha, in one of those odd moment stories, called our home phone (dug it out online, I reckon), left a message. One of the times Mr.wd sneaked back here to gather some comforting items while we evac’d in the motel, he wrote down all the messages, and one was ubetcha. Purdy funny altogether. I did call him back, and really don’t quite grasp what he was talking about, but I think he was waiting for a response to communication he gave to management over a deleted comment, but I’m not at all sure how he sent his questions, concerns.
Can’t remember how now, but I have emailed with OFG (a great-sounding man, by the by). But my inbox is always out of control, and am really unreliable about keeping up with correspondence, which fact I tell all my potential e-friends.
Anyhoo, good luck to us all. I srsly wish all this weren’t happening. If there’s one thing I believe, it’s that internecine angst, envy, bitterness…will not help us out of of our present vast predicament.
love to you,
wd
Good to know, SD. Indifference is a virtue … of sorts. lol.
I just suggested you elaborate on your accusation regarding what RC said about you. No one seems to have a clue what you are talking about, as he seems to have suggested quite the opposite.
Anyway, was just passing thru to give DWB the link. Didn’t mean to get you involved.
In most cultures, fire is associated with transformation – with death and with rebirth. And as we know, wild fires serve a powerful purpose in the regenerative process of the lands affected. We are not separate from the land beneath our feet, nor from the land around us – what transforms it, transforms us too, albeit usually on a less visible level.
Borne upon the powerful wings of love and respect that I once encountered, my interest in the plight of the Indigenous, no matter the continent, has grown in depth and breadth. That which assails them – from betrayals by government, to horrible numbers of the addicted, to violence, to their staunch holding onto their ways, their traditions – all of it: the good, the bad, the ugly – carries a mirror for our own culture and for what has and is assailing us. In that mirror is the deep recognition that there is no “them” there is only “us”. A reflection that I perceive you to understand most clearly. Like you, I am of the opinion, that the way out of this mess we are in, may well and truly lie with these, the Indigenous, of all the continents. (I am particular to the notion that it will include the elder female viewpoint – the grandmothers. But that is just my notion with highly personal reasons behind it.)
Enjoy this time with your daughter and your grandchildren. Nothing can open me to the silent murmurings of my own heart quite like the familiar presence of both. The more I move into just being with them, the clearer such murmurings become.
Love and all good things to you WD.
wb
I am gonna say it agin,dee dub, your comments are pure poetry…
Ya know,man is the only creature with the gift of speech..
then again,man is the only creature who((( blushes)))..or needs to..
IO was going to make a comment about blushing,red faces;,but ,considering this is a thread about American Indians,I thought it prudent to refrain.
Heh. This entire thing is pretty much empowered and driven by people reading what they want to read into carefully excerpted bits of conversation while intentionally ignoring – or at least failing to actually put an iota of personal effort into comprehending – what people are actually trying to convey in the sentences they use.
Sad to watch people chuck friendships over such nonsense and bullshit.
Completely agree, the waste of time and good will are nothing less than appalling, kgb999.
DW