Good day to you all. It’s Terror Tuesday again, and as an antidote, I wanted to bring you this news in case you’d missed it. Please excuse its copy/paste nature, but real life isn’t leaving me much extra time lately, and I wanted you all to be aware of this fourth and final session of the Peoples’ Tribunal that was held in New York City on at Cooper Union’s Great Hall, October 6–7, 2012.
“The Russell Tribunal on Palestine (RToP) is an International People’s Tribunal created by a large group of citizens involved in the promotion of peace and justice in the Middle East. These past years, following, inter alia: the international community’s failure to implement the International Court of Justice’s 2004 Advisory Opinion on the construction of a wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory ; the lack of implementation of the resolution ES-10/15 confirming the ICJ Opinion, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 20 July 2004 ; and the Israeli offensive on Gaza in December 2008 – January 2009, committees have been created in different countries to promote and sustain a citizen’s initiative in support of the rights of the Palestinian people, with public international law as a legal frame of reference.
The RToP is imbued with the same spirit and espouses the same rigorous rules as those inherited from the Tribunal on Vietnam created by the eminent scholar and philosopher Bertrand Russell (1966-1967) and the Russell Tribunal II on Latin America (1974-1976) organized by the Lelio Basso International Foundation for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples.” (more is here)
In these videos, three notables are speaking to us about their thoughts before the start of the Tribunal.
The Jurors were: Alice Walker, Angela Davis, Cynthia McKinney, Mairead Maguire, Stephane Hessel, Ronnie Kasrils, John Dugard, Dennis Banks, Michael Mansfield QC, Judge Martin Pallin, Miguel Angel Estrella, Roger Waters (Pink Floyd; beats me…).
“May this Tribunal prevent the crime of silence“…
…declared Lord Bertrand Russell to define the spirit and the objective of the International War Crimes Tribunal constituted in 1966 to investigate crimes committed in Vietnam and judge them according to international law. He says it all, given that when the existing institutions are failing in their duties to investigate or prosecute violations to international law or social justice, it’s the ethical duty of The People speak in the silence. My hat is off to these folks.
Human rights attorney and activist Noura Erakat writing at jadaliyya.com says toward the end of her piece, ‘The US on Trial in NY: The Russell Tribunal on Palestine’:
“Last week at the UN General Assembly, Barack Obama, President of the world’s most powerful country, exalted the United Nations and the ideals upon which it was built. Namely, that:
“’people can resolve their differences peacefully, that diplomacy can take the place of war; and that in an interdependent world, all of us have a stake in working towards greater opportunity and security for our citizens.’”
Yet, as global superpower and a veto-holding member of the UN Security Council, the United States has perpetuated one of the most significant and enduring conflicts of the 20th century. By shielding Israel from accountability and by providing it with unequivocal diplomatic, economic, and military support, the United States has severely reduced the chances of establishing peace and justice among Palestinians and Israelis. To the contrary, by enabling Israeli colonial-settler expansion and militarism, the United States has inflamed tensions and entrenched chauvinistic ethno-national separatist ideals. But who has the audacity, let alone the ability, to successfully challenge the excesses of the global superpower? For the past six decades since Israel’s establishment, no nation, or group of nations, has been successful. Alternatively, like they have done in the past, ordinary people are taking a stab at it.” (Read the rest here.)
You can watch some of this event here on Free Speech TV, and read the tribunal’s Draft Findings here.
May we keep the flame for peace and justice alive in our hearts and minds, and try to honor and respect each other, our children and grandchildren as worthy of peaceful resolution to conflicts, without resorting to violence, whether physical or verbal, or the authoritarianism that teaches only through fear, and breeds its own pain and sometimes evil.
Peter, Paul and Mary say it right, imo:
Light one candle for the strength that we need
To never become our own foe;
Light one candle for those who are suff’ring
A pain they learned so long ago;
Light one candle for all we believe in,
That anger not tear us apart;
And light one candle to bind us together
With peace as the song in our heart!




93 Comments

Yet, as global superpower and a veto-holding member of the UN Security Council, the United States has perpetuated one of the most significant and enduring conflicts of the 20th century. By shielding Israel from accountability and by providing it with unequivocal diplomatic, economic, and military support, the United States has severely reduced the chances of establishing peace and justice among Palestinians and Israelis.
This sounds like Neo Colonialism to me after you lose control of your colony first create a country dependent on you entirely. Pick an unpopular minority to rule, have all the wealth and power etc and encourage them to be cruel to the rest of the people.
Israel had a majority of non Jews before the wars and even now faces becoming a minority again because of lower birth rates.
America and the various former colonial powers always protect Israel and the former colonial countries from human rights concerns provided they have a friendly government and obey.
In Israel’s case their is a new twist most Neo Colonies oppress their people for the benefit of their first world Patrons.
America thanks to heavy lobbying cash/bribes instead impoverishes itself to provide Israel with Weapons, Cash for their economy and National Healthcare even as we do without National Healthcare.
This could be the first case in all of History where a Neo Colony became the aggressor parasite and the patron the Patsy puppet government.
As long as Israel has and in fact encourages these tensions then Israel will always be dependent on us and a unstable country. Yes Israel is strong but without our cash and guns how long would their country last?
I do not doubt that everyone agrees war crimes are being committed and that as history goes on more and more of even the Right will admit there were war crimes.
However people like the Right and Obama only care about their Machiavellian Schemes however besides the lobbyist cash/bribes where is the benefit to us of supporting Israel?
As long as we support Israel we create tension and war in the Middle East. Higher oil prices have been linked to if not the direct cause of every post WW2 recession.
GOPers and Obama love money so why support Israel?
Oil Prices would be higher if one country gets control of the Middle East and establishes a monopoly on oil we can’t allow that so we support Israel. So we support governments that are violent and have no popular support with the people heck we encourage them to oppress their people by appealing to their greed and of course we encourage them to fight each other. In the Iraq and Iran war we sold weapons to both sides. Even after Iran backed Hezbollah killed 241 American servicemen in 1983 Iran Contra began 1985.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing
Never mind Israel we discredited human rights when we backed the Shah of Iran who tortured people over the democratically elected leader.
Then we support both sides in the Iran Iraq war and thus prove ourselves snakes in the grass.
On top of that we fight for 12 years ? now in Afghanistan and still can’t win this discredits our military something would be amoral Machiavelli’s and Practitioners of Realpolitik should be worried about.
We are lead by stupid amoral people who think they know better than us where is the benefit even if we suffer where is the benefit to them of our Mid East policy!
A few bribes by the Israel lobby does not match the loss of cash, military assets troops, equipment and reputation etc that has befallen America.
The humanitarian argument is also weak just because the Jews were almost all killed does not mean they get to treat other people like the Nazis treated them.
What is Gaza but a new Polish Ghetto?
…Roger Waters (Pink Floyd; beats me…)
Tsk, tsk, wendy, Roger has been a staunch advocate for the Palestinians for years now…! The Wall in Palestine…
Btw, mahalo, for writing about the Russell Tribunal…! *g*
As an African American who went to college when the Western Powers were backing and creating their Neo Colonial African Puppet States much to the anger of every politically aware African American at college protesting American support for South Africa, Angola etc.
One wonders was Obama politically aware at college? Probably yes but was Obama willing to sacrifice Principle for Power even then probably Yes.
However Obama like most of the Right and the Blue Dogs seems to be confusing short term personal gain for long term loss and unable to figure out greater than .
I am sick of pols who claim that lack of morality frees their minds to make better judgments. Just because they lack morals and empathy does not mean they lack the negative emotions like greed. If anything it makes them more short sighted having greed but no empathy plus the idea that they know better than us.
On ending the wars, the economy, tax breaks for the rich do not create jobs or increase government revenue, global warming etc etc the Left has been right on the facts for years.
That Roger Waters :) Very Cool!
Tsks aside, it doesn’t automatically make him a brilliant juror, imo, Tuttle.
Added: But then, Russell Means couldn’t make it, and I am seriously not a Means fan. ;o)
I may remember some of the history a bit differently, Things, but I grew up as a fervent Zionist, and was slow to recognize what was going on, so…
We think of the mega-power of AIPAC, but it’s enabler and fund-raiser, Christian(ist)s United for Israel and their bent interpretation of Revelations…is also savagely crazy.
Too many speeches before AIPAC over the years have been scary biscuits, and I think the zeal on display was not feigned.
Aaaand….Bibi’s speech at the Joint Session drew 29 standing ovations…just sad, no?
I’d forgotten you’re African American, Things. So’s our son. (Well, half black, half Azteca…), and our daughter is Ute Mountain Ute. Cool family of color, eh wot?
Dunno how ya separate political gain from personal, really. Baffling to see how short-sighted and self-defeating all this is, and yet…
My kids are pretty much white, but I love them anyway.
Too funny.
They’re also bright and compassionate. A few people have learned a few things.
(Hi to Thingscomundone, by the way.)
Hope it’s okay to share that here.
Oh, do I get any bonus points for having had an Aspherger’s Kid, even if he’s blond? Made a huge difference in my life, I’ll say.
Eh, Whot?!
My sister has a beloved card with that nectar-crazed butterfly!
(What does the invisible ‘e’ stand for in the parenthetical caption?)
Oh, and on a butterfly note, I’ve observed some Monarchs in my yard lately, which I’ve never seen before in about 9 years at this place.
Love them. They make me smile and remind me that we all look different. Some little, big, yellow and black, shades of the rainbow.
It’s a challenging life, I’ll say that, for sure.
‘…pretty much white’, lol! Dunno what that means, but hell, it’s not a contest. Those babbies made our lives rich and full, if sometimes difficult as all giddy-up.
Sure, though, take extra credit; it’s all good!
This un’s a Swallowtail, and Monarchs are scarce, and in some trouble now, theories from decreased habitat due to RoundUp Ready GMOs (over-spraying) to climate change. I saw ONE this year.
Your sister got one of the best shots of the year, imo. Some of the Big Fuzzy Bees in flowers are cool, too…
Er…which invisible E, dear? The one where the space is supposed to be? If so, it’s for ‘Ellen’, ish. Dinnae want to be little wendy weaver any more, so I went with…middle initial and another boring as hell Anglo-Saxon name.
Or were you thinking of my invisible jet, perhaps?
Okay, Swallow-Tail, I think that’s what’s enjoying it here.
I thought I saw an orange and black one, but, you know…memory these days. The flutters that I’m seeing these mornings are just like the palatte in your photo.
I so enjoy the beauty of nature these days. Even took my camera to my walk in the park this morning, because with the cooler weather I some thicker shorts on that had a pocket.
Small oasis moments for us during these time, and I know you extend yourself to enjoy those as you can. Wonderful!
My middle name is Russell.
Top shelf Wendy, as usual.
We’ve generally forgiven the Jews for a long ago crucifixion. Perhaps the Holocaust was so horrible that we can’t bring ourselves to transcend its horror in order to question the immunity of political prosecution or even criticism that we have subsequently bestowed on Israel.
AIPAC influence not withstanding, Israel has understandably taken advantage of our granting most favored nation status long enough. They’ve become like the black sheep of a family; ol’ Uncle Isaac has all the perks of a U.S. neo-colonial territory without the constitutional responsibilities of human rights.
Its become impolite to mention Uncle Isaac’s forays into the dark side of schizophrenia in its reactions and treatment of the Palestinians.
I would make them an offer they would inevitably refuse but would might serve to bring the issues of human right violation into discussion. Make them an serious offer to become an interim official U.S. territory, with 51st Statehood possible. Absorb the nuc weapons problem. Outside attack out of the question. Boundaries clearly delineated. AIPAC befuddled. A super power can do what it wants, whose to say otherwise?
Tell them our President has signed a letter of national security intent to proceed whether they like it or not; under the auspices that even the vaunted Israel shouldn’t be able to drag us into a war that we haven’t made profitable arrangements beforehand.
Since they’re a de facto territory anyway, the idea, even a plausible rumor of eventual Statehood, or that we may make them a temporary territory (say 10 yrs) against their will, (since they’re obviously out of control) might elevate the debate on the Palestinian and other issues onto the front page and some degree of continuing attention; perhaps enough to begin some movement on a situation that can’t be allowed to be ignored any longer.
As TCU @3 aptly put, the Jews have ghettoized a people, terrorizing them and are on the verge of crucifying them one by one. Our forgiveness for that first one should be enough.
Hmmm. Danny Schechter thought it was a boring and passionless event, and said that ironically, one day one, not one Palestinian spoke. But this history of his really noteworthy. Speaking of the original ‘people’s tribunal’:
“…modeled on the initiative by the late British philosopher, Lord Bertrand Russell, an esteemed lecturer, author and moral leader who first created the Tribunal concept in the 1960’s to feature well-known intellectuals to expose war crimes in Vietnam.
I covered that event when it took place in Stockholm with a jury made up of the likes of Jean Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir, Swedish Playwright Peter Weiss and American anti-war activist David Dellinger among other cultural and political luminaries.
It drew global attention and denunciations by the US government and media when Vietnamese witnesses testified about the chemical defoliation of their country, and systematic and often deadly human rights abuses.
I remember American TV correspondent Morley Safer doing a ‘stand-up’ after one session when the audience left, denouncing its allegations of U.S. war crimes and dismissing the Tribunal as nothing but communist propaganda.
Thirty years later, his own news magazine, 60 Minutes, carried reports confirming that there were indeed brutal atrocities being committed in places like MyLai where American soldiers slaughtered innocent civilians including many children. Had Safer not been so eager to discredit Vietnamese experiences back then, something might have been done about the abuses or at least made them known.”
Has there ever been a time in which it’s this critical to increase Indy media and save the internet from corporate take over and DHS, DNI, TIA spying and limiting access?
Dunno, Morley; did you live to regret what you did? At least Robert McNamara did, and I sure wish my papa had been alive to hear him recant.
The mother-of-pearl markings really are astounding. See where the left wing (our left; dunno how Swallowtail sees it) is detached from its body so that the paonia shows through? My stars. The immature ones don’t have it, I dunno about gender differences, come to think of it.
My big wish this year was to get a pic of a giant Luna moth; they can get big as a salad plate, at least. Nope, no Lunas.
It’s always great to see pushback against the Grey Lady… NYT Reverses Time to Put Retaliation Before Attack in Gaza…
Pleased to meet you, aitchRussellD. For Bertrand, or the terrier? ;o)
Interesting thread here. If only justice and Palestine were better acquainted, but it’s a given that the interests of the United States doesn’t include justice…not just because of AIPAC but those Zionism-supporting Christians who think God entitled them to other people’s belongings.
One of the important difficulties in the area is Israel’s reticence on agreeing on where the border is while at the same time proclaiming proudly that the UN declared its reason to exist. You’re not supposed to know that the UN also declared its borders. Israel doesn’t like the UN’s declared borders but refuses to acknowledge ANY borders, which should be Clue One as to its intent to spread like a cancer into the West Bank.
Here’s more fog, from Morely’s wikipedia entry:
“In 1964, Safer joined CBS News as a London-based correspondent. In 1965, he opened the CBS News bureau in Saigon. That year he followed a group of United States Marines to the village of Cam Ne, for what was described as a “search and destroy” mission. When the Marines arrived, they gave orders in English to the inhabitants—by all accounts harmless civilians—to evacuate the village. When the homes were cleared, the Marines burned their thatched roofs with flamethrowers and Zippo lighters. Safer’s report on this event was broadcast on CBS News on August 5, 1965, and was among the first reports to paint a bleak picture of the Vietnam War. President Lyndon Baines Johnson reacted to this report angrily, calling CBS’s president and accusing Safer and his colleagues of having “shat on the American flag.” Certain that Safer was a communist, Johnson also ordered a security check; upon being told that Safer “wasn’t a communist, just a Canadian,” he responded “Well, I knew he wasn’t an American.”[4]
Seems he was used as a witness to hold-harmless plausible humanitarianism.
Dunno who killed Christ, hermit, but Pilate figures in there prominently, although he sure has a raft of apologists. ;o)
You might be right about the shame precluding an honest assessment, though. And the opposite can be said on the failure of governments to acknowledge the Armenian genocide…as genocide. Come to think of it, did Obomba, as he’d promised during the campaign?
But your fix with 51st statehood/US territory is interesting, if impossible. Declaring Jerusalem a Jewish city was bold, too. Did that ever make it back into the Democratic platform? Would it be wrong for me to utter:
Christ in a Canoe?
I know I dare not ask: Why is there so much hatred in the world? It simply can’t be attributed just to the nature of humans. Peace and cooperation would be so much simpler.
Aw, shoot; an infant an four children wounded. But: ‘…because the Times went out of its way to deemphasize this crucial fact.’
I will assume Fair got it right.
Thanks AitchD. I didn’t know that LBJ was quite such an exceptionalist; Tonkin Gulf’s continuation of Manifest Destiny aside.
If Gaza is a ghetto, might it not be because the Gazans have chosen to run off or kill their political and religious enemies? Hamas has committed plenty of “war crimes” against their own, but it’s not politically correct to point that out. Also, doesn’t their charter call for the expulsion of all Jews who were born in the entire area after 1917?
…Safer “wasn’t a communist, just a Canadian,”
*heh* So am I, well, an expat Canuck…! ;-)
Even a little is so much, yes. But out of several billions, how many are haters?
I remember learning that Insecurity > Fear > Hatred.
With Israel and Palestine, there’s an infinite loop of vengeance, which can only get worse.
Agreed on the Chrisitanists; ‘Pastor’ John Hagee’s (CUFI) performance at an AIPAC conference was one of the most hideous things I’d ever witnessed. Complete with high reverb, you could just tell he believed that he was…speaking either as, or for…god.
The borders, yes, Clara Listensprechen. And nice to meet you, by the way. Don’t think we’ve been introduced until now. ;o)
Neither for the libertine nor the canine, simply a masculine form of my mother’s family name.
I usually don’t answer comments made to other commenters, sharonsj, but do consider this a free-fire zone, and I hope others may answer you.
Me, I’m taking a dinner break. Back soon. ;o)
Why “Uncle Isaac”? It’s Isaac’s son, Jacob, who was renamed Israel.
(J. J. Gittes to Curly: “Call me Jake” — Chinatown)
*wow* Where to begin unpacking that hasbara spin…? Oh yeah, how’s about Israel’s unilateral disengagement plan…! Which started in ’04…! Sounds like Israel drove ‘em out, and not the Gazans, eh…? Go peddle your spin over at Dkos…! 8-(
If I’m reading the Wiki entry you posted correctly, it’s in direct opposition to Danny’s narrative, isn’t it?
If so, I’ll ask again: since da Wiki can be amended by anyone, and I wouldn’t know even if I researched the Wiki Talk Page…what am I to believe?
Ah, Tuttle, you know I adore ya. But please: make your arguments, but know all perspectives are welcome, okay? I haven’t many worthy answers, but many of you will. Sharonsj may be seeking counter-arguments to her understanding, or not, but I hope she will receive them, and I may learn more along the way myself.
We’re in the Hurry Sundown (‘weave me tomorrow…out of today’) days…and tempers run short, as evidenced far too often at this good site. IMO, of course. ;o)
And yes, P, P & M may have been similar or stronger activists for Palestinians than Monsieur Pink Floyd, but I’d prefer the philosophers and ethicists of yore, myself, to musicians, even when they are such poets as these.
Realpolitik is a consequence of empire, of capitalism. It dehumanizes all citizens, including the “homeland”‘s.
I do like to hear other’s perspectives, wendy, but, I will also point out blatant hasbara and/or half-truths…!
Yes, Hamas has committed ‘war crimes’ and their Charter also calls for the elimination of Israel, but, does Sharon happen to mention the fact that the Likud Charter calls for the complete annexation of Caesaria and Judea(The entire West Bank) and Gaza…? Or fails to mention the Goldstone Report…! 8-(
I respect that, Tuttle; I was just referring to the offer for her to leave here, is all.
And see? You brought counter-argument *and* links, lol, which can help us all. Good job, dear.
I was thinking how often writers at Mondoweiss, for instance would beg: ‘Hamas; stay your hands!’
We’ll get there one day soon. A new consciousness is coming, and many over the planet can fair’ smell it comin’. Again, I believe it because I do, and also because…I must.
…Again, I believe it because I do, and also because…I must…
Eggs-actly, M’dear…! That’s why I keep chugging along…! *g*
Yes; ergo: my plea at the end of the OP. How many? Dunno, but hatred collected can loom as an over-arching entity, hard to shrink to size.
Peashooters and squirtguns of love and understanding, I guess. Got hooked on The Peaceable Kingdom early, I guess, not that I’m immune to bummers, as the one that has me by the midriff this week.
This registered Republican? His hair? Dunno either.
LOL! Okay; Arlo Shaggy Dog Story wid da Big Hair. ‘Gaelic’!
Guess I might take Danny’s version for now. ;o)
Well, Tuttle. I just got back in from trying to make out the Milky Way through the high, thin clouds. The west end of Sagittarius was visible, so I peered into the space there where we can see into the center of our Galaxy, imagining I could see what in the Multiverse is in store for us next.
I want to believe She whispered to me… At least I’m smiling a li’l bit now.
But this week, I’d settle for some goddam rain. ;o)
Two wiener dogs walk into a bar and go up to the bar, but the bartender can’t see them, so there’s no joke.
Speaking of stargazing, I was totally stoked to hear today, that Subaru needs me tomorrow nite and Thursday nite…! I most certainly needed that bonus paycheck…! ;-)
Least it wasn’t a Shaggy Dog story.
(sorry)
Do you mean Subaru Observatory? If so, congratulations, and how great.
Luau’s are expensive. Better cut back, eh party boy?
*heh* One’s first Grandchild turns one, only once, Ma Cheri…! ;-)
One notable quote that I’d recently shared on Facebook, and was well received…
“All the World’s major religions, with their emphasis on Love, Compassion, Patience, Tolerance, and, Forgiveness can and do promote inner values. But the reality of the World today is that grounding ethics in religion is no longer adequate. This is why I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether…! -Dalai Lama
It surprises me how few educated people know of Dr. Schweitzer’s Reverence For Life.
“Ethics is nothing other than Reverence for Life. Reverence for Life affords me my fundamental principle of morality, namely, that good consists in maintaining, assisting and enhancing life, and to destroy, to harm or to hinder life is evil.”
— Albert Schweitzer
That’s exactly why travel is one of the purest forms of education around, you see and experience the true diversity of Nature and Man…! ;-)
Agree CT.
Perhaps if Sharon read “The General’s Son – Journey of an Israeli in Palestine” by Miko Peled, she’d have a little better idea of the recent history of the region.
I fit the meme, I guess, though ‘educated’ and self-educated may be relevant; dunno.
But his thoughts about ‘will to live’ being thwarted by giving in to authoritarians and outside influences echoes what I said above.
As far as Jainism informing his beliefs, I will say that bacteria and viruses love to survive, also… (not entirely snarking, but it’s something to consider in that philosophy). But anticipating my side objections, he later said:
“Standing, as all living beings are, before this dilemma of the will to live, a person is constantly forced to preserve his own life and life in general only at the cost of other life. If he has been touched by the ethic of reverence for life, he injures and destroys life only under a necessity he cannot avoid, and never from thoughtlessness.” (works for me)
Of his quotes in da Wiki, this one stood out to me, which addresses a little bit of what Tuttle brought from the Dalai Lama (more on that later):
“By itself, the affirmation of life can only produce a partial and imperfect civilization. Only if it turns inward and becomes ethical can the will to progress attain the ability to distinguish the valuable from the worthless. We must therefore strive for a civilization that is not based on the accretion of science and power alone, but which cares most of all for the spiritual and ethical development of the individual and of humankind.”
Anyhoo, your Schweitzerisms caused me to go hunting to the person at the Tribunal that was to speak on sociocide (besides Means, arrgh). It was Johan Galtung, who wants to speak of harm to societies (cultures might be more appealing to me, given…never mind), as well as ecocide and genocide.
And of course, Schweitzer was thinking hard about ‘civilizations’, which talk was starting to cause me some head-scratching so early in the morning, as it them was.
Gotta go for now; it’s bread day, along with all the other chores. ;o)
Hey, great diary! This is the heart of the matter, much as you peered into Sagittarius and contemplated the wee beasties that make up our physical being – shades of Teilhard de Chardin (sp?) and Einstein are rejoicing!
On your brief encounter with Pontius Pilate above, I did some research on the mysteriously challenging ‘The Master and Marguerita” by Bulgakov – thank you google! I don’t have a copy at present, but felt it pertained. Here is an extract from an essay, quote from a perceptive Soviet writer:
“Bulgakov is, as it were, subjecting his hero [Pontius Pilate] to a distinctive and crucial psychological experiment, in which he poses to us, to himself, to Pilate and to Pilate’s human ego, this question: What is man? Is he responsible for his acts? Is his moral choice predetermined by the conditions of that choice, or is it the case that even the harshest circumstances can never serve to justify an immoral act?
Through Pilate, through his fate and his spiritual agony, Bulgakov replied: Yes–he is responsible. Because man is something more than a concatenation of circumstances, something more than mere existence. As a physical being he may, Bulgakov implies, fight against fulfilling his moral duty with all his might and may enlist a dozen allies in this cause–self-preservation, habit, inertia, fear of suffering, of hunger, of poverty, of banishment or of death. But as a spiritual being, endowed with a moral consciousness, he is always responsible to his own conscience–and he is always alone. He has no allies to whom he can transfer even a part of his responsibility, and there are no external circumstances or conditions of his choice which can justify him if he chooses evil. Here, faced by the merciless demands of moral duty and its punitive force–conscience, his human dignity is defenseless, and if he wants to retain it he can do so by one means alone: by being true to himself, to his moral convictions.”
Wow. I’ve gotta find that book!
Sorry, the perceptive Soviet review came from I. Vinogradov.
And, recommended!
“…but I grew up as a fervent Zionist…”
But, alas, you would appear to have fallen from the pure light of the revolutionary notion of a Jewish person’s right not to have to worry about their Christian and Islamic neighbors murdering them in their sleep.
Even angels have wings of clay.
Which reminds me: Wasn’t Lucifer a fallen angel?
All views are welcome, doremus, even if made of some amount of straw, and they offend ‘fallen angels’ like me…who you hint are sidekicks of the Devil you appear to believe in; I don’t.
Likewise, wendy. :)
I’m new to FDL although I’ve followed it on Twitter for a long time. I registered just to make a comment on a post I saw via Twitter without intent to write my own blog entries, and I’m still feeling my way around how FDL works…and finding it quirky, leaving me wondering why I don’t get notified of people who reply to me (and thus I’ve lost track of the first article I posted on. Almost didn’t see your reply, actually).
I’m registered at Daily Kos, and pretty much for the same reason; I’m more active on MSNBC’s Newsvine, as that’s less difficult to grok and write for.
Israel’s borders were a bugbear since the word GO and I’ve noticed that they’re actually allergic to establishing ANY border, or proposing any border, while using their infamous concrete wall to grab additional land they think they’re entitled to. And they think they’re entitled to the entire West Bank.
Religion is at the root of all of it and humanity would be better off without it.
Thanks for digging for that worthy perspective. I know your faith also is rigorous about personal responsibility for moral/ethical choices, which seriously means being impeccably clear about what underlies a choice. (Tall order, but critical)
Vinogradov’s position is a keeper, imo.
So many of the Pilate apologists pretty much cast him in a role of Technocrat for Rome, too. Along the way, I even ran into a discussion of Christ’s trial; that was a trip, and didn’t rely on Biblical texts solely.
And his comment…runs into the Dalai Lama’s quote a bit, too (at least in the images forming in my mind). And in a way, Schweitzer’s. Lot of musing, googling to do yet, and on a busy day. ;o)
You the ‘devil’ or ‘Lucifer’?
Nope, for anyone to think that of you would just be pigments of a colorless imagination.
Offend you?
Why would anyone want to do that?
And belief in the ‘devil’ or ‘Lucifer’?
They are merely symbolic representations of the evil that lurks in all human hearts and minds.
Nothing more and most assuredly nothing less.
Merely symbolic representations? How useful for the “symbolizers”.
Yes indeed.
“If ‘god’ didn’t want them sheared, he wouldn’t have made them sheep.” Calveras, ‘Magnificent Seven’
Nothing mere about that cynicism, comrade.
Wendy –
Speaking of these things, I have thought for a while that “sin” is “without”. In religion, it would be something without God. Like sinsimmila is without seeds.
Or, an action or thought without compassion.
I’ve share this thought with others without receiving comment, not here but in the Real World.
But, my impression of you is such that I thought I’d share that and maybe get a response. :)
Sinner: to be truly the one (who is without righteousness).
“The cynics are right nine times out of ten.” Henry Louis Mencken
From Mencken, world class cynic.
I get the distinct notion that the three of us would enjoy a beer or two together.
But then again, maybe not.
Just the innate, internal, eternal cynic speaking.
” Along the way, I even ran into a discussion of Christ’s trial; that was a trip, and didn’t rely on Biblical texts solely.”
This is exactly what Bulgakov does in “The Master and Margarita” and it is beautifully done. Here’s a bit of an essay I was just reading from back in the day by translator Michael Glenny:
“…Pilate’s punishment is to know that when faced with the supreme moral dilemma of his lifetime he made the wrong choice. He stands for all men who similarly fail…”
Yep, lots of re-reading going to be going on here as well!
I wrote a song a while back: I’m not Jesus.
I do try every day to be a better person.
Maybe. I suspect Mencken was beyond Carlin’s definition of cynic, though. Probably would take gouging for him.
Well, the pretenders to righteousness are pretty disgusting, on the whole.
Let me think about what you might mean here, demi. I’m so ignorant about the concept of sin (except for some descriptions of sin as parsed by Catholics).
Even while I love Christ the Prophet, the belief that he was ‘crucified for our sins’ is hideous to me, and marks me clearly as not-Christian (well, mebbe the Resurrection as well; okay…) (There’s a discussion going on at naked capitalism this morning about Muslims in America pre-Euro settlements that’s pretty fun, as it turned into somewhat of a discussion about religions.)
But while I love to pray, and do often, I can’t say I really believe in God. Where I did learn to love prayer was in Navajo sweat lodge ceremonies, though I never attended NA Peyote Church, which is rooted in Jesus.
So, your definition of sin within religion…dunno. But isn’t all church dogma and maybe eschatology all about sin, in the end?
Lemme think on the other part…or you could amplify it, maybe others will speak to it. I’m just picturing the myriad things we do every day in aid of our own lives, and most may be neutral, but some we do without thinking through how they *might* affect others.
Another busy day here, but I’ll come back when I can add anything coherent (unlikely as that might actually be, lol!) I do know that my Christianist in-laws are convinced I’m going to hell, and the knowledge does kinda upset them. ;o)
If you don’t mind me responding, demi, I have some quotes from the article by Michael Glenny on ‘The Master and Margarita’ that might pertain:
“…evil is the inevitable shadow without which the light of good would not be light…”
“…our ultimate freedom, from which all choice stems and which is therefore the determinant of our being, is to choose between good and evil…”
“…if we use our freedom to choose evil, any such choice is in the direction of non-being, hence in the direction of our own and (if we hold power) of other people’s destruction…” [this is the one I think pertains to your question.]
In the novel, Glenny concludes: “…From an alliance between complete understanding (the Master) and selfless love (Margarita) will flow compassion, man’s greatest weapon in the unceasing conflict between good and evil…”
This is what gets Pontius Pilate back on track. And the rest of us too.
It seems that way to me too, Ludwig.
And, then there’s that hypocritical aspect.
(Currently enduring a rant from my husband about how fucked up the media is. I’m typing and nodding, ’cause I’ve heard this one, oh, hundreds of time. Nice to have a break from that by coming to the Lake. I know, I’m obviously a masochist, if not a cynic.)
Sorry, the link between all of that and Pontius Pilate is in the following: “…there will come a moment in time when a man of great vision, insight, and strength of will –the Master –[however you like to poetically envision such] –will discern the whole truth of Pilate’s act and his agony at having committed it…”
I left that out, so please insert it between my ultimate and penultimate quotes above.
No, masochism would be to ask what your husband thinks of the Lake.
It’s been bugging the bejayzus out of me that ‘The Master and the Margarita’ is sooo familiar a title, but not Bulgakov’s name. So much of my brain’s hard drive got wiped out awhile back, and it’s like the file titles still exist, but the data’s gone. So…again, I love that you’re (and others here) are so widely read, and your recall is so good and clear.
I confess that I got a little tripped out by how many versions of Pilate are represented just in the first 100 hits; my stars. The last quote you brought made me think that he may be by way of a Rorschach test, divining our own beliefs, justifications, attempts to reconcile cognitive dissonance, etc.
Gotta laugh, though. Sometime back, most likely at a yard sale, I picked up the Dalai Lama’s book on Happiness. Beyotches R Me, but so much of it seemed…made lightweight by the desirability of ‘happiness’. Can’t say I ever even finished it…
Pilate was a company man. Didn’t he think Jeebus suffered for his sins? (ambiguity intended)
He’s fine with the Lake. I get a lot of information here. Quicker and more accurate than the msm, and that’s for sure. He has his own sites that he gets “news” from and whatever issue either of us brings up, we talk a lot, most often we have both read some and can discuss.
Could be worse, know what I mean?
Sorry, Clara; I have developed the bad habit when I come to my posts of zipping to the bottom and working my way upstream.
Here, as opposed to some other sites, there is no ‘email me when someone responds to my comment’ feature. But we do each have dashboards if we’re registered users, and clicking on a username takes you to that person’s, where you can see the start of their comments, a link to the diary, as well as a tab that is their archived diaries, if any.
I was trying to remember discussions about the pre-1967 borders, for instance, and did save this debate link on the subject for you. Yeah, plenty of opinions about ‘land one in war is the victor’s’ is well represented. As is doremus’s ‘security’ argument.
As to your final sentence, I hear you, but it’s a far larger subject than I have time for now.
Glad you’re here. ;o)
Ah. Not as bad as I thought.
Yeah, right on. I was just thinking, as I’m reading here, how he was like a metaphor for how we should embrace responsibilty instead of “washing our hands.”
@ CTuttle, and to whom it may ever concern (had you not been on the thread and actually remember it) ;o) :
Concerning spirituality as opposed to ‘religion’, and atheism v. theism, my longtime friend Obey put up this post some time back. It was based on some emails (a series, not one as he remembered it, but no matter) between us on the matter of belief in God, or not. It’s an excellent essay.
But along the way, and I hope the issues are contained in this post, not the one he cross-posted to kgblogz, is a bit of a discussion about the nature of spirituality, the nature of religion, (and the betwixt- between), as far as conventional differences are spoken/believed, imo.
Silly to boil it down at all, but one thing sticks with me from the discussion, and that was his belief that a person like myself, who might advocate prayer/emphatic thoughts and images/healing messages, etc. to some entity other than God (say: the noosphere, Gaia, other humans/ the Mulitverse….is actually just substituting that recipient of those ‘energies’ (gads, what a poor catch-all term), or ’causes’, in the karmic sense of ’cause and effect’, read: directed thoughts, healing images, yada, yada…) for God.
His take was that a person like my hippie self was actually assigning ‘acency’ to the recipient of those things, therefore…stood as God, or a Greater Power, to which term some of react more benignly, or favorably.
The ‘Can Science Act as a Moral Framework?’ author. I hosted a discussion about that back in the Cafe Days, and it was found: No. I will say that devotees of neuro-science as holding the keys to that kingdom seem to rely on facts and causalities not in evidence. Far too many see ‘associations’ to stimuli in say, fMRIs, and jump to biased and self-congratulatory conclusions, given how young the science is, and what it can, or may never, prove.
Some claim we are hard-wired for Goodness, capital G, but I’m not convinced that the studies I saw proved it, really, but there’s a whole lot more to that discussion, too.
Ah, well…more than enough (and the crowd went wild with cheering!) for now. Big topics. ;o)
Thank you, juliania; I’d reckoned you might have some thoughts to help. I’d have to add that one of the books that I remember as formative when I was poking into the nature of evil was Scott Peck’s People of the Lie. I won’t even try to synopsize his theories, but he made the case that lies were at the bottom of so many hideous consequences…I’m thinking person to person, now, but it would hold true among nations, media, elected officials, etc.
The images I remember concerned not only the lies we told others, but of course, the lies we told ourselves, and almost came to believe were true were as damaging, if not more so.
And I guess that’s where the idea of scrupulous inner inventory comes in. Often my dreams have to show me my personal fuckups, fears, shames and guilts, as I didn’t have the wit or courage to see myself as truly as my unconsious/subconscious self did.
And now I need a break for some sleep. ;o) Love to you all, and stay strong.
That would be it in the best sense, but what I’d meant to convey that he was the inkblot that we (and biographers, scholars of any stripe) might project meaning onto, like describing what we see here.
If I understand correctly, the psych tester would then analyze what we described seeing (usually in a series of blots). I just woke up after sleeping too long, enmeshed in dreams, but if I spoke to a shrink what I see there, I would likely be diagnosed with a personality disorder. ;o)
A long while back a pagan said to a Christian, “Show me your God.”
The christian replied, “Show me your man.” By this he did not belong to a class which folk are often rightly debunking – today’s so-called Christians who adhere to policies which go against the teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount and so many other places. The true christian is much, much closer to the true agnostic or atheist, who thinks about these questions mindfully and always has questions, than he is to the powerbrokers and the greedy.
I don’t need to get on a soapbox here, because it is perfectly fine to set ‘Godness’ aside and simply consider what makes a man a man. It’s what all the quotes I submitted do. That’s a high enough bar, and certainly in a forum such as this it is humanity we deal with, not any one of the multiplicity of faiths. It’s where we have common ground.
Ladie, Juliania and Wendy.
I’ve been outside working on a project, but, I’m intrigued by your comments and wish that I had the wherewithall to address them now, but I can’t do justice to your words at this time. (dinner calls, you both know.)
I look forward to further discussions.
You could not have said fairer than this, juliania. If I were to count the number of Christians I truly admire as some arbitrary ten or twenty, you would be at the top of the list, and I don’t say this lightly. Your relationship to God as you explain it, and to the best hopes for man as well, is of the highest order of a true spiritual quest. Thank you; I’m honored to know you, and so pleased that you always make my posts better when you visit.
My guess is that we’ll be around. Some great comments here, once again.
Whoosh.
Righty-Oh.
Onward and upward.
Mexican but I had a few African American friends in college.