Yes, this diary is partially by way a bit of a holiday antidote to the vast amount of horror stories that are coming at us here at home and to far too many all over the world. When I first spied the news at the Guardian while watching the live-blogging of the events in Gaza, I was mainly just tickled by it all. But this morning I read a piece at Counterpunch that indicates that it’s a real issue for some folks, so I reckoned it might be a nice topic to explore little bit. For the legal beagles here, there are apparently various legal and Constitutional rights to consider as well as cultural/societal ones.
On Tuesday, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors voted 6-5 to ban public nudity in a motion brought by the regrettably named Scott Wiener.
Mr. Wiener:
This situation has changed” he said. “It’s no longer sporadic. It’s seven days a week in this neighbourhood where people live and work and conduct their lives.”
He said people were standing at the corner of Market and Castro, “displaying their genitals to anyone who is passing by. It is very much a ‘hey, look what I have’ mentality.”
While he recognised that Castro was a place of “freedom of expression,” he said: “That doesn’t mean we have no standards whatsoever.
According to Binoy Kampmark:
The law might be an ass, but its parents tend to be unwise law makers. A nice, even depressing example of this is the attempt by San Francisco’s Board of Supervisors to make it illegal for anyone over five (why not six, seven or eight?) to “expose his or her genitals, perineum or anal region” in public locations, including places of transit. Knowing, presumably, that they are legislating for the wise, merrily deranged citizens of San Francisco, exceptions are made for various street fairs and events (Folsom Street Fair, and the annual gay pride event, to name but a smidgen). More on point, the supervisors don’t want to fall foul of the First Amendment. [snip]
What an astonishingly ignorant proposition. San Francisco has been a caricature of itself since it began its pretensions as a city of gold gazing across the Pacific, the liberal base for “anything goes”. Any supervisor should be thrilled to know that his constituents are happy to go starkers, however flimsy their philosophical basis for doing so might be. San Francisco is a Rabelaisian epic of a city, where bowels and genitals are courtiers keeping company. It features the fallen, the deranged, the crippled, and the extravagant.
Apparently there were enough changes or amendments to the original proposal to require a second vote soon to pass the final version. The attorney for the Naturists is Christine DiEdorado, who has filed an injunction in federal court to halt the measure. Given that a group of protesting nudists marched on City Hall on Nov. 14, we might expect similar actions soon.
DiEdorado discusses the issue, including case law and boils the main issues down to three main questions:
Lost in the debate are three fundamental (at least to a criminal defense attorney like me) questions. First, is the conduct targeted by the proposed ordinance a protected activity? Second, assuming the government can restrict the behavior, are extant State laws sufficient? Third, has state legislation already preempted the field of regulation of nudity in public spaces?
She addresses the first question in part:
With regard to the first question, the general trend by courts in California seems to be not to grant First Amendment protection to public or private nudity unless the nudity is accompanied by or part of ” ‘some mode of expression which itself is entitled to first amendment protection.’ ” Elysium Institute, Inc. v. County of Los Angeles 232 Cal.App.3d 408, 424 283 Cal.Rptr. 688 (2nd Dist. 1991)[internal citations omitted].
Of course, this raises as many questions as it answers–and it’s almost an invitation to anyone who wants to go sky-clad to chant political slogans or carry a sign when they do so. What about a naked man with an #occupy cockring?
The second question to her seems to revolve around Wiener’s objection to cock rings, which the commenters on her piece discuss. Given that understanding, she says:
Going back to the cockring “problem”, since the purpose of a cockring is to draw attention to the wearer’s genitals, wearing one in public while nude would appear to make one subject to arrest for violating PC 314(1) based on the plain language of the Smith case. Thus, existing state law is more than sufficient to deter the supposed problem to be remedied and the ordinance is unnecessary.
The third, she says, is a murky one, and I won’t bring any discussion since you can read it at the link.
Anyway, apparently this is all a bit of a Big Deal, and since I haven’t been to San Francisco for decades, I hadn’t known that nudity was big, nor that it was almost a cultural icon in the Castro district.
So stay tuned, and in the meanwhile, the Taiwanese Next Media Animation (NMA) folks are having some fun with it.
What do you think? And if you were on the Board of Supervisors, how would you vote? Warning: If you dissemble, a trap door will open and your chair will drop through the floor). ;o) Would you strip and march with the Naturists to City Hall? If you’ve been to the City on the Bay and seen the nudists, were you okay with it? If you’d had your children (actual or imaginary) with you, would have seemed okay? Is nudity a First Amendment right? Feel free to offer opinions at will. ;o)
In the main, it’s the male nudists that are referenced so often, but in the Guardian’s coverage, the poster person is Gypsy Taub. You’ll love the photo they used, methinks. But as with the public outcry at the male nude posters advertising a show at the Leopold Museum in Vienna, were the objections gender-based? Trying to dig my diary about it out of the Google cache, I found this headline from the 21st at Bloomberg: ‘Naked Men Draw Women, Enraged Philistines to Vienna’. Hmmm.
(I’ll confess up front that for a life-long hippie, I’ve always been pretty modest, and have been to very few nude places, and wasn’t very comfortable being unclothed.



59 Comments

You would have to be a masochist to go nude in SF. It’s cold there even in the summer. I enjoy laughing about the funny things that go on in SF – most charming, off-beat city in the US. Thanks for writing, Wendy, and for the humor.
I have a natural distrust of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors since the Diane Feinstein/Dan White days. So color me skeptical….
And thanks for doing the diary on Thanksgiving Wendy! I appreciate it, and I know others do too.
Welcome, Twain. Ah’m happy it made you laugh. It’s a true holiday going there, or was…back in the day. I can smell all the smells wandering around in my memories. For a provincial like myself, there were out-loud thrills around every corner with all the different cultures and races represented.
But don’t think I didn’t notice you didn’t answer any of the questions, woman, tsk, tsk. ;o) Love to you, and Happy Thanksgiving.
Holy smoke; thanks for making me Google that history, Jane Hamsher. I did.not.know.it.
Powerful people with great bank accounts and portfolios seem to be everywhere, and never leave until they are buried. Arrggh.
But you’re welcome, I’m sure. Some of us will have some time at our laptops, even tonight, but it doesn’t mean we are any less thankful for what we have, or what we hope for/believe.
We had a few streakers, indoors, back in the day, but public nudity just hasn’t been a regular feature of life in northern WI. Mosquitoes in the summer and well, winter in winter, even with global warming, would require a certain amount of personal fortitude to pursue the practice.
Go Badgers, lol!
Now come on…tell us about how cold you were, nonquixote. ;o)
Gotta love ‘personal fortitude’. Hope reading and watching was fun, dear one.
I love how the Taiwanese animators follow US current events so closely. It’s almost scary!
I dunno if the increasing trend of plastic surgery on vulvas flips you out for any number of reasons, but this one is so fucking profound *and* cautionary, it rocks me large. Whooosh; I thank them. ;o)
See, the problem here is a type of gentrification. [Warning: links NSFW] The Naked Guys in the Castro are mostly kinda old and pudgy and wrinkly and annoying. You really don’t want them sitting next to you while you’re trying to have a nice lamb kebab at Fattoush (sound it out) or a blue cheese/market figs/arugula pizza at Starbelly. Ewwwww. If you can’t look like this (scroll down) or like this or like this.
This is a bit of a sideshow; the Board of Supes doesn’t want to talk about real dicks, like their pal Ross Mirkarimi, former supervisor and now Sheriff of San Francisco. Ross was convicted of domestic violence but still gets to keep his job.
Oops, premature posting. That should say “if you can’t look like this, we don’t want you messing up the beautiful views in San Francisco.
Also, rec’d, of course. I needed something to cheer me up after football. :)
I have the solution to this problem. Drones! Wolverines!
It looked like a sequel to Finding Nemo.
ok, you convinced me! I’m ageist *and* prudish; that typical day in SF could put me off my cornflakes jig-quick, never mind the lamb (did it come wit mint sauce, though?…swoon…)
Now you have me laughin’ awful hard, hfc. Soooo glad to know you knew right where to find these treasures…on the buff bad boys: did you have to open the window a li’l bit?
Wow, those Supes; did ya know the Dan White history? Eeeep. Sorry your Raiders lost, but then again…I loathe football. ;o)
Premature whatting? Finding Nemo; man, you are on a roll tonight; so glad to provide the venue, dearest. ;o)
I concur, Frank33. It’s their duty to drone all liberal beacons!
(Wolverines? Wot?)
I’m just bored; I was so happy to find you here. Thanksgiving is probably my least favorite holiday. We keep a low profile. I worked on flyers for friends who are going to the Walmart protests – too far away for us, so I had to do at least that much.
The Raiders are hopeless; today I was rooting for my original favorite team and they lost. I won’t mention any more about that, given your disdain. I understand that, believe me.
Yes, the Dan White history was before my time but I know all about it through friends in SF. There’s a great documentary about Harvey Milk that has been on PBS a few times and they go into some of it in the movie (the one with Sean Penn as Harvey).
Hey Wendy, good to see you at Late Nite. I agree with Twain above on going nude in SF, too cold. The thought of goosebumps on wrinkled asses is just too horrible to imagine!! Aagh!
Yeah, hard to like a game where an ambulance has to be called onto the field so often, but…guess they’ve all had so much brain damage and steroids by then they don’t care.
Good on you for doing the fliers; we ended up with no kids, so we had Pumpkin Pie for dinner instead of turkey-lurkey. I have heard of this film, yes, and know some of the story from diaries here.
Sleep well, Sweet Patootie; I’m off to sleep. Thanks so much for the belly laughs. ;o)
A woman from L.A. who I’ve done work for but had never met until recently met me in San Francisco for lunch about six months ago. This woman is gay and Latina and considers herself to be pretty alternative. We took about a 15-minute walk down Market Street on our way to the restaurant and we ran into an Occupy SF march featuring the usual suspects, plus cops on dirt bikes, plus several naked guys lined up along the street, cheering them on, plus tourists with their cameras and other assorted lookie-loos. Kind of a normal day for me but Ms. Alternative just stood there with her jaw hanging open.
You sleep well, too. Thanks for the silliness, I needed it. :)
Well, now you’re just trying to turn me on, eh? Or was that for hotflashcarol?
Shoot; I just twigged to ‘late night’, and went and looked on da front page. How very fun, but goddam, i still have to get some sleep. Santa comes in the wee small hours, yes?
Would you and hfc be willing to host for me until you fade? Oh, thank you! Love to you, pasta!
Help Pasta host? Hope so. ;o)
Ack; I just found a minimized tab I’d meant to show you. I did a post a while back about the Ukrainian Femen at Davos. I love the tar out of them.
Sweet dreams, Wendy, get your rest. Love ya too.
If one cannot legally drink on the street, one probably shouldn’t be parading one’s junk on that same street although there’s certainly a reasonable debate on where the lines should be drawn. Seriously attractive young people should probably be given greater latitude.
Ah, the Femen. Yes, I know about them.
You wanna leave me with the nekkid diary, do you? OK, I can probably hang around for a while.
Several of SF’s most popular events do allow drinking on the streets, although they have just banned alcohol from the Bay to Breakers run. Because it leads to peeing on the streets.
Hi, hotflashcarol. Good on ya for helping out the Walmart protesters. We’ve got a few of those going on in Utah tomorrow. One is being organized by a guy I know from OccupySLC.
There are already arrests happening in Portland. Facebook says there are riot cops there. Lots more interesting stuff on this Twitter feed.
Ironic statement in the Portland article that says police are “working to ensure a safe environment for people who are there to shop.” Shoppers are in danger from their own stampede in the store, not from any protesters.
I know, the cognitive dissonance, it burns. The news is full of stories of people camping out on the sidewalks, stores providing porta-potties, etc. My local paper had a quote from some shopper who explained that he was out there at Best Buy three days in advance because he “wasn’t lazy.” The cops will protect your divine right to shop.
For instance, this is very dangerous. To capitalism.
Any challenge to capitalist society is frightening to those whose livelihood depends on it. They cannot imagine another way of conducting business, and they will strike out at what threatens that. It will take a big effort to broaden their horizons.
Got to hit the hay, getting late here. Later.
I’m out too. Sweet dreams!
Ah; nice to see Kurt Sperry break into some restrained hilarity. ;o)
Didn’t Timbuk 3 do a song ‘Junk on Parade’?
Many thanks, hotflashcarol and pasta-fedup. Hope you’re both having nice dreams. ;o)
Heh. The Nation quotes an employee, Christpher Owen saying:
But many of us won’t be surprised to read this. Discussing OBomba’s grass roots organizing for the ‘fiscal cliff’ scheme:
Dear Mister President
My honest regards
For disregarding
Me.
My, how things change for the better under a Democratic President.
Ever since they drove all the poor people out of SF, especially the city’s Black people, I have had a hard time seeing the place as much more than a beautiful setting that should be stolen back from the inch-deep “liberal” Boomers for better purposes. The SF of the 60s, 70,s and 80s moved to Oakland long ago.
I think we pretty much established that f*cking liberates only your genitals quite a while ago. But you may want to check in with your local Libertarian group for more on this one. A lot of those people started out in exactly that crowd.
Hotflashcarol concluded the same thing upthread, Matthew Detroit. Happened in Denver as well, and Bruce Dixon says to major swathes of NYC.
‘Urban renewal’ and eminent domain. Dark Dynamic Duo for the underclass.
Decolonize San Francisco! I like it.
Europe generally seems to have no problems with public drinking although a friend said Paris caved to local puritans and made even having wine with a picnic in the park a technical illegality. I gather enforcement is spotty. I was in Zurich last year and one is expected to carry one’s beer from establishment to establishment when out pub hopping and other than beer bottles left about (and efficiently cleaned up by street cleaners at dawn) the sky didn’t seem in danger of falling. And Germans tolerate public nudity just fine, at least in areas of public parks informally given over to such. It seems to me like this stuff has already been figured out over there and what does and doesn’t work more or less determined. Let people who aren’t being a nuisance drink in public and allow ample public spaces for nudity that people likely to be offended can easily avoid.
How’s that sound?
Pastfedup was commenting on hfc’s video of OUR Walmart protesters being escorted out of a store by cops.
By the by, I really like the ‘For Respect’ shorthand; it’s strong. And…Walmart grabbed back the url ourwalmart.org they had been using if I remember my link-grabbing correctly. There one day, gone the next, while I was working on the initial strike stories.
I know you addressed your comment to hfc, but as she’s likely still asleep, I’ll say the I like it. As we say around here: nail it!
A rather retiring friend saw this post, and emailed this:
“Nice little T-Day diary; nudity is good cuz God don’t make no junk.” ;o) Though it may be a bit sexist, if only males have junk, so… ;o)
Kurt Sperry: Can you write in an exception in case the Femen come to town?
Got it. Sorry pastfedup.
If only Americans could act like Europeans – that thought holds true for so many different scenarios. But we’re still puritans who like to party and puke while the parents are out of town, and I don’t know if we’ll ever get over it.
Matthew Detroit, I agree about SF. And people who can’t afford a $1500 micro apartment in SF are moving to the East Bay and continuing the gentrification of Oakland and other cities. (Note that the link is from March; rents have only gone up since then.) That led in no small part to me not living there any longer; we’ve been gentrified out of the Bay Area three times (so far; we keep coming back but perhaps now we have learned our lesson).
Veering OT to post a Walmart update. Wonder where securitay and the po-pos were? Oh, that’s right, they’re outside protecting shoppers from those scary people with the For Respect signs.
There appears to be a juxtaposition of images along this thread.
On the one hand we have all the bruhaha in SF around public nudity.
On the other hand clips of riots breaking out in WalMart, in some bizarro form of blood lust for phones.
Personally, I am more comfortable with public nudity the the later.
At least no one usually gets injured.
Well…as long as they don’t act like Silvio Berlusconi and some choice others. ;o) But seriously, over time some of my email relationships with friends in Europe have helped free me up to speak and write more frankly about sexual and sensual matters. And to joke, as well. ;oP
Good-o on the Walmart updates; I couldn’t read those Tweetie things on Jane’s thread. They make my brain frizzle up.
Did you see Plouffe’s comment uptread? And that magazine called the WH ‘liberal’? Yeppers, dem ole walkin’ shoez.
ROTFLMAO! Junk Over Jerks!
I wish people were less hung up over human bodies (yes even the wrinkly, imperfect, lumpy ones). Happy naked people are generally a thing I enjoy seeing. I regularly attend events which are clothing optional (Burning Man community events especially). I rarely go completely naked myself, but appreciate the ability to stumble to the porta-potties without dressing in the middle of the night, or not having to worry if my sarong suffers from a wardrobe malfunction on the dance floor (oops). In general, I’d rather be accessorized at least than completely nude. I also live in a clothing optional household in a state with a warm climate and a high privacy fence …
There are in fact kids running around at Burning Man events, and I doubt anyone has been harmed by seeing some naked bits — but Burner kids are a different sort than most.
However, it’s worth noting that shirt-cocking is a mortal fashion sin.
Thanks for posting this.
Those are events, Kit, not shopping at the local bakery (was that in the video I posted? I watched several before choosing one). Some of the comments on different of these posts we upset that ‘the exhibitionists’ were more in peoples’ faces, and actually lewd, were messing it up for the Naturists.
The shirt-cocking I can see a very offensive, and too in-your-face weird. I’d sure hate to see the Daisy Cocking morph to cunt anything; I loathe that word as uber-degrading, myself.
We were casual around our house with the kids, and I assume it didn’t mess them up. Can’t say how I’d know, really. They won’t tell. ;o)
But then, we were completely ecumenical in celebrating many religious and cultural holidays so the kids could make either choices or no choices, and both kids are now… Christians. ;o)
I’ve lived in San Francisco for 15 years.
I regularly shop at several stores in and around the Castro district.
I often bring my 6yo son with me. He gets his hair cut at Louie’s barbershop across the street from the Castro theater.
We’ve eaten picnic lunches together several times in nearby Jane Werner Plaza, the geographical locus of the controversy. I’m very familiar with the phenomenon under consideration.
I like how Supervisor John Avalos responded to Wiener’s efforts to ban public nudity. He said, “We are a beacon of light to other parts of the country, and sometimes there is a little bit of weirdness about how we express ourselves.” Scott Wiener and a majority of the Board of Supervisors have now dimmed that light a bit with this stupid and ill-considered priggery, and we are all poorer for it.
Meanwhile, I’ll note that smoking is currently banned at MUNI stops, but the police don’t seem to me to be very aggressive with enforcement. What do you want to bet they will be all over the nudists come Feb 1, while the smoking prudes at the bus shelter point and laugh with impunity.
I thought it was perfect that upon passage of this stupid bill, a bunch of people in the meeting began to take off their clothes. I suspect the SFPD would much rather enforce actual crimes – you know, like sitting on the sidewalk with your clothes on.
Public nudity is Legal in Vermont, for humans. However, displaying nude mannequins is illegal ther.
Mannequins are not anatomically correct, right?
As a longtime resident of the Castro, I tell friends I’m not thrilled about the Naked Men, but I have no real problem with them.
By way of comparison, I note that the Naked Men do not shit and piss all over the sidewalks of the neighborhood; never create a nuisance with their barking or their fights with other Naked Men; I’ve never had an unleashed Naked Man charge at me down the sidewalk barking and snarling while his owner laughed at my terror; and the Naked Men are most certainly never allowed in the food stores and restaurants of the neighborhood. All of which cannot be said of all the dogs in the neighborhood.
A friend once responded to my comparison with “But they’re [the Naked Men] are unsightly.” If that is the criterion, there are a lot of us here who should be walking around with paper bags over our heads.
Scott Wiener, by the way, is very much considered a Chamber-of-Commerce, rentier-allied supervisor. Right out of the Dianne Feinstein wing of the Democratic Party.
Great personal testimony, s9; thank you. The Avalos quote was good, wasn’t it? I liked the ;ast part of the Kampbark quote, too. ‘Rabelasian epic of a city’ and ‘merrily deranged citizens of San Francisco’.
You must love the place to stay fifteen years. I appreciate your reading and commenting. ;o)
Oh: and are you pretty sure the final vote will go the same way?
Gypsy’s photo at the Guardian with the photo journalist (seemingly nude) was fine.
Not that I’ve ever seen, Norman. I’d heard that about Vermont before; it must have been through you, yes? Odd-bodkins stuff, really.
But…mebbe if they made anatomically correct mannequins…Vermont’d make them legal. ;o)
I love the comparison to dogs, madcap. My understanding was they could go in food stores, and there was already an ordinance that they hat to sit on cloth when they used city benches for sanitary reasons. Good Point.
Yes, Wiener sounds like a dick.