Like the Sirens reputed to lure sailors onto rocks, a series of columnists who want President Obama to fail are praising Obama’s capitulation on extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. The motif of these comments has three common characteristics – all designed to destroy the Obama presidency. First, and the chutzpah of this aspect is wondrous, those that hate Obama’s policies are telling Obama he is demonstrating his strength by surrendering on the Bush tax cuts to the wealthy. Second, they claim that Obama “moved to the center” by agreeing to support tax cuts for the wealthy. Third, they claim that Obama’s attacks on his strongest supporters are brilliant politics essential to saving his Presidency.
Dana Milbank’s recent column is one example of the three-part motif. The title of the column captures the first aspect: “Obama finally stands his ground.” What he means of course is that Obama failed to stand his ground, repudiating his promises to end the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. Milbank also said that while extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy was “dumb,” Obama’s agreement to extend those tax cuts was the first thing that Obama had ever done that made Milbank “proud.” Milbank is finally “proud” because Obama is excoriating his strongest political supporters – the “liberals” who Milbank detests. Milbank’s explanation of why he detests liberals parrots conservative Republicans.
Monday, we were treated to the triple motif from another commentator who desperately wants Obama to fail. Mark Penn, the CEO of Burson-Marsteller, claims in a column entitled “Democrats need to back Obama” that:
By becoming reverse tax protesters (chanting “raise taxes”), the liberals are sending out all the wrong messages to a country that overwhelmingly backs the key elements of the bipartisan deal the president struck.
[T]he Democrats have got to stop returning to class warfare.
Obama took the first step this week in seeking to save his floundering presidency by moving to the center. His execution was far from perfect but his actions were sound.
Obama has now gone down a path he cannot and should not retreat from — governing from the center.
In a series of untruthful sentences, Penn hits each of the elements of the motif. Supporting the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy constitutes “moving to the center.” “Liberals” are the demons whose desire to raise taxes would doom the Obama Presidency. Bush doesn’t engage in “class warfare” when he cuts tax rates for the wealthiest Americans – anyone who opposes Bush’s tax cuts for the wealthy, however, is engaged in “class warfare.” Obama’s capitulation on Bush tax cuts for the wealthy is not a retreat from his campaign promises – repudiating his capitulation to the Republicans on those tax cuts would constitute a “retreat” and demonstrate weakness. . . .
None of Penn’s claims are true. The folks pushing for tax increases, during a severe recession, are financial conservatives in both parties. They were the deficit hawks, and Obama appointed many of them to the deficit commission. It was the Republicans who were holding tax cuts for 98% of U.S. taxpayers hostage. By calling the Republican bluff on taxes the House caused the Republicans to make this clear to the American people. The Republicans’ strategy would have compelled them to raise taxes on nearly all Americans, which is why their strategy was a bluff.
Obama’s promise to end the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy was supported by a strong majority of Americans. That means that Obama’s capitulation on those tax cuts constitutes a move away from the center toward the far right. This makes perfect sense. The people who want Obama to fail consistently push him to abandon policies that are desirable and broadly supported by the public because they want Obama to fail. Obama cannot seem to grasp that straight forward concept. Milbank, for example, attacks liberals’ support for the public option because it was both substantively critical to an effective health care plan (because it would contain costs) and politically popular.
Penn’s claim that Obama must not “retreat” on his capitulation on Bush tax cuts for the wealthy because that would demonstrate weakness is so obviously backwards that one is in awe of his willingness to spin fables that are the opposite of the truth. Penn comes by his willingness to spin professionally – it’s what he does for a living. He gets paid enormous sums to spin absurdities that have no basis in reality. Penn is the CEO of Burson-Marsteller, a PR firm. BM goes well beyond the typical PR firm. As Rachel Maddow has said, “When Evil needs public relations, Evil has Burson-Marsteller on speed-dial.” There is an entire web site devoted to BM’s penchant for putting a happy face on mass murderers.
There are three questions that we need to ask about the campaign by those who want Obama to fail to encourage him to support the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy by advancing this three-part motif. First, why would those who want Obama to fail suddenly offer him good, sincere advice on how to succeed? Second, why would any Obama supporter believe that they were offering him advice on how to succeed rather than suckering him into political suicide? Third, given the facial absurdity of the motif and the obvious incentive of the commentators to harm Obama, why wouldn’t Obama treat their comments as conclusive evidence that his capitulation on the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy was a disastrous mistake?
Cumulatively, these questions lead to a disturbing inference. The Milbanks and Penns of the world invest the time to spin these fables because they think that senior members of the administration hate liberals so badly, and are so desperate for compliments, that they will fall for praise from people that hate them and want them to fail. They hope that the administration will take their advice and destroy itself and the Democratic Party by adopting policies that harm the nation (by making already record income inequality even worse) and require Obama to betray his campaign promises. It’s hard to conceive of a nastier insult to the administration – they’re convinced that Obama and his senior staff are uniformly incompetent.
The ideal result for supporters of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy is to get them extended in a manner that allows Republicans to escape from the suicidal bargaining position they were in on holding taxes for 98% of American taxpayers hostage and blocking the extension of unemployment benefits, in a fashion in which the Republicans get to take primary credit for all of the tax cuts, and while causing the President to betray his campaign promises and launch an attack on his strongest supporters – an attack taken word-for-word out of the Republican playbook. That is precisely what they’ve achieved. They did not achieve the result through brilliance and they cannot achieve it without cowardice and ineptitude on the part of the Democrats.
__________
Bill Black is an associate professor of economics and law at the University of Missouri-Kansas City. He is a white-collar criminologist, former senior financial regulator, and author of The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One



84 Comments

That’s called playing politics, something the democrats still haven’t learned.
Excellent Post! Most of us Progressive already saw this coming. It is just like the HCR bill where the republicans screeched and worked to get it where it is and now use it against him.
Notice, there is no mention of the off the rolls or 99ers in this plan, nor the effort to squash that 99ers line by telling the truth about it. Just because there are 99 weeks made available, most unemployed do not qualify due to the tier system.
Also, if the republicans were really into decreasing taxes on Americans they would have mentioned several other unfair practices.
Take for example the horrendous tax and penalties on retirement accounts. In most cases the early withdrawal in these hard times would cost the owner of the account up to 60% in taxes and fees. Do you see one republican spouting that those investment accounts should be taxed like any other capital gain account at 13 to 15%?
Not a CHANCE! This is all theater for their own benefit.
Mrs. Mark Penn, a/k/a Nancy Jacobson, is one of the founders of No
FingerprintsLabels, the freshly astro-turfed sensibly centrist bipartisan front group that the media is drooling over.The story of how Penn and Jacobson met will warm your heart:
“Cumulatively, these questions lead to a disturbing inference. The Milbanks and Penns of the world invest the time to spin these fables because they think that senior members of the administration hate liberals so badly, and are so desperate for compliments, that they will fall for praise from people that hate them and want them to fail.”
I can’t argue with the idea they have because it is evident in what the President says to us and how his staff responds. How many times do we need to be told to STFU you sanctimonious peasants? This when taking office Obama told us to let him know when things were not right! I think he has been brainwashed by fear.
Beat me to it, Allan!
Oh, and let’s not forget David Walker, Pete Peterson’s mouthpiece, the Catfood Commission connection of the No Fingerprints/No Transparency cabal:
http://ataxingmatter.blogs.com/tax/2009/04/david-walkers-tax-predictionsscare-tactics.html
You do know the fake Liberals on the tv all love this?
Mr. Black said it all in one sentence. The “Bipartisan-ship” is headed for the rocks for Democrats. The “Bipartisan-ship” is on a round the world cruise for Republicans.
Mark Penn’s willingness to confuse marketing and spin with empirical research is quite familiar to longtime FDL readers.
Penn’s October 2007 Book Salon chat appearance is a classic, as he was caught repeatedly trying to sell spin as scholarship.
Sounds like not much has changed for Mr. Penn.
Granted they also hate us and drool over all the support Obama will get from the public on this issue.
I see Dead People…er Obama getting Bush after the banking crisis poll numbers if this passes.
I see the end of the Blue Dogs who vote for this.
I hope Obama insists that the majority of GOPers vote for this or even Progressives will have a tough time next election.
The Democrat Brand name just got Mad Cowed, Mercury Cat Fooded.
Obama’s reelection campaign is going to be based around just a wall of lies (much like the last time, actually) about the legislation that he passed. How wonderful it all is, and aren’t those crumbs delicious? To hear him compare his presidency to FDR, whose accomplishments he is doing everything to tear down, really is almost too much to take. I won’t be listening to a word of it. I know my limits.
Josh Marshall had a post up about “What’s wrong with Barack Obama?”. Noticed he doesn’t smile anymore! Awwwww! That spring in his step seems to be gone. Joshie dismissed in one sentence the fact that he’s delivering shit sandwiches to his constituents, everyone who voted for him. Declares that he needs to get “his swagger back”. Fuck yeah! Take that poors! In yo face!
Love how the entire TPM website disabled comments to their articles. Marshall is the David Broder of the liberal blogosphere, except I’m pretty sure he’d take that as a compliment.
Lawrence O’Donnell has been particularly nasty with opponents of Obama’s new tax fiasco: I remember him shouting at one point “What would you say to Floridians in the lowest tax bracket when their income tax goes up from 10% to 15%?” Last night, he was trying to make the point that, by making this tax deal, Obama had actually schnookered Republicans into giving up more than they had wanted to and that Obama was really a smooth negotiator that had won more for the American people than he had given up to the wealthiest members of the country. The oiliness of it made me sick.
Obama hasn’t saved his floundering presidency. He’s pissed off the few supporters he had left. I had planned on voting for him in 2012 (what other option was there?), but not anymore. I can hope that we nominate a candidate with a stiffer spine to run against him, something unheard of until now, but even if we don’t, I’ll be damned if I’m voting for The Turncoat now…..
No Labels. Not Left. Not Right. Corporate.
Mark Penns Microtrends really helped Hilary/s
Obama Haters Praise His Tax Policies Because They Believe Those Policies Will Make Him Fail
not only will it make him fail, it makes the country fail
wealth is built from the bottom and migrates up, not the other way around, the wealthy do not create jobs, jobs create wealth
obama actually does not know this and really really believes there is such thing as “trickle down economics”
as I’ve said numerous times, anyone who believes jobs come from the wealthy would also believe the ocean comes from the rain, it’s the other way around
Obama is leading the Democrats over a cliff, yet they are still all afraid to “go against the President”. I’m not kidding, they may lose the Presidency and 100 seats in the house. Who is going to vote for them? These “centrist Dems” barely exist, and no independents are going to vote for them with this crap economy. And while the “weak Obama caves to the GOP” is crap, he’s getting exactly what he wants, the fact that the “he’s weak” meme is wrong doesn’t stop it from being a very effective stick to rhetorically beat Obama with (it’s an analogy).
But it’s so much easier with a one party country. Any good authoritarian knows that. Besides look at just what the so called independents are who will comprise this single party. : A bunch of easily manipulated reactionary impulsive shallow thinkers who vote largely on the basis of coolness.
odonnel seems to think it was this deal or no deal, he also doesn’t know the poorest among us see an increase in taxes not a decrease
OT. Liveblogging from the London courtoom.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/dec/14/wikileaks-julian-assange-court-appeal-live-updates
Why is Mark giving his opinion on politics? Thats like asking Ben Stein for business advice, or Bush about WMD, saving New Orleans, how to win wars, fix education (without funding it what a concept) or the economy.
Are there no political experts with track records of being right in the Democratic party?
Oh wait Lefty Bloggers even if we lose a battle politically we are right on the facts and what we warn will happen if we lose normally happens.
obama is a monster just like bush.
Well the wealthy are great at creating jobs Perris if truth be told…in China just look at all the jobs America lost to Outsourcing with the Bush tax cuts. Even Wallmart is willing to lose market share and grow in other countries rather than invest more or keep market share here.
Ha! That’s like asking the biggest government welfare queen evah in the US, Barbara Bush, how to help the downtrodden!
Yes, when David Broder, David Brooks, Dana Millbank, and Mark Penn are all praising Obama’s “compromise” with the Republicans because it’s such a wonderful example of bipartisanship — this should actually mean something to any Democrat trying to defend it. And it shouldn’t mean anything good.
Yeah, I wondered if they picked the group’s title just to piss off Naomi Klein. :o)
http://www.naomiklein.org/no-logo
Just what we need, another platform for millionaires to demand we cut we cut entitlements.
As to Bill Black’s point, I think the proper analogy to this tax deal is the 1990 budget deal where Democrats (and Dick Darman) cajoled President George H.W. Bush into breaking his “read my lips, no new taxes pledge”. That won Bush exactly zero Democratic votes while losing him millions of Republican votes, and prompted a primary challenge by Pat Buchanan. Presidents who are challenged for re-nomination invariably lose in the general.
“A series of columnists who want President Obama to fail are praising Obama’s capitulation on extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.”
I’d like to praise the POS POTUS for his latest betrayal because it was the one-step-too-far that opened the eyes of the remaining Obama fans among progressives and liberals.
Now everyone finally sees Obama for the corporatist sellout and friend of the megawealthy that he is.
Yup: http://nolabels.org/media/content/12-13_-_no_labels_launch_agenda_-_public_final.pdf
i found Rachel’s takedown of the “beltway media” pretty interesting and accurate last night!
As if Obama or the Democrats were ever on our side (working,middle class). It’s a one party system for and by the have-too-much already.
“Are there no political experts with track records of being right in the Democratic party?”
The ones who’re mostly right lose, and the ones who’re mostly wrong lose. It’s been so for most of the last 20 years.
The Democratic Party needs another FDR asap.
I thought they just praised the policies because they agree with them. If they vote for their passage and if they are part of a Republican compromise, won’t all share the blame when they invariably fail? I think that is more the goal – Escape from culpability for all parties. They did it! They did it too! They made me do it!
And so the Bush tax cuts become the Obama tax cuts. All in power are agreed that you can’t cut ANY taxes in a recession despite the absurdity of that position particularly as it pertains to the wealthy, not to mention the entirely new bauble thrown in gratis by the President – the estate tax cut which wasn’t even on the radar.
Moving along as the recession goes deeper and hangs around as we know it will, then they will have to find more comity in agreeing that we must all “sacrifice” (but really only the poor, the disabled, the sick and the elderly) and balance the budget on the backs of Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.
If Obama’s numbers are going to crash, sooner is better than later. Worst case is that he gets the nomination, then his numbers crash when it’s too late.
For me the idea of center is unknown! I need a chart that shows what is what! I keep hearing the center changes? What the heck is that!
This is what these elites want: A society where they can avoid worrying about our common infrastructure and health because they can literally rise above it and thus ignore it:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A42332-2002May31
Does that mean that the poor create jobs? What’s the problem then? Get the poor off their duff and have them create some wealth.
I could not agree more about Marshall and TPM. You are exactly right about their disabled comments. Josh still blames Ralph Nader for Gore’s inept loss. Marshall has a penchant for chasing his own tail.
Bail has been granted per Guardian UK twitter feed – next hearing 1/11/11
I get the view that it was necessary to extend the tax cuts to help the unemployed. Beyond that, I don’t get any of this deal other than both parties don’t care about the long term future of America but believe they will get short term political gain out of this deal. Tell me this will help the unemployed in the short term but don’t try to spin this deal and tell me it is good for America. Good luck to those who lose part of their social security and medicare in the future. Maybe they can use part of their tax savings now to help themselves in the future.
I also get that we can’t raise taxes in this country for anything, even for war. Obama is just catering to the main characteristic of Americans — short term greed. That is the main reason the Democrats lost the last election.
They might as well have made the tax cuts permanent. They will nerve be eliminated anyway. And some time before the next election, wall street will be screaming about “uncertainty” again. Wash, rinse, and repeat.
crikey !
o/t breaking – Assange has been granted bail – via twitter – details forthcoming
Ahh yes, Brazil, where the police patrol the slums by helicopter gunship and ambulances shoot their way in to rescue wounded police officers, good times. I can’t wait to see how they handle the Olympics.
“Bush doesn’t engage in “class warfare” when he cuts tax rates for the wealthiest Americans – anyone who opposes Bush’s tax cuts for the wealthy, however, is engaged in “class warfare.”
_____________________
Allowing people to keep their own money is “class warfare”? And why should ANYBODY pay taxes? The Fed just prints whatever the government needs. We could do it too, if we had the right equipment and paper; print up some dough every time the cupboard gets bare and there’s only a couple beers left in the fridge. In fact, people do it all the time, if the currency is good enough, nobody knows the difference. So the tax thing is just punishment for people with more pieces of paper. The real solution isn’t taking their pieces of paper away from them, it’s printing more for everybody else.
This demonstrates how absurdly weak Obama has become. Because he has no principles and stands for nothing the Republicans have defined him how they please. The irony is that Obama (the great manipulator), is losing at his own game, while the country has been abandoned to the highest bidder.
Assange had better look both ways when he steps out of the courthouse.
I wondered who was behind No Labels. This now makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the info.
Agree. It was a fine piece of analysis.
These are the same political operatives who believe that:
1. They can ‘create [their] own reality’ — evidently, they believe that they can overpower the laws of chemistry, physics, and geology. Or, as the Man In Black said of Vizzini, “Truly, they have a dizzying intellect.”
2. They can convince people this is about domestic conflict – it’s not. It’s about whether America will come to recognize that its public lands, public resources, publicly owned power utilities, public interstate system, and public universities were the foundations for post-WWII prosperity.
3. They believe that ‘privatizing’ improves the delivery of services, or they claim to believe it. What it does is extract wealth from everyone, to benefit an increasingly concentrated wealth of fewer and fewer.
One reason that I’d suggest these articles are coming out on the Monday following Bernie Sanders’ Tour De Force on Friday is to bury any coverage of his brilliant economic analysis.
Sanders looked back over decades, pointed to the roots of economic woes that go back easily to the early 1980s, and made a coherent argument that wealth comes from taking care of ‘collective goods’ – the thing that only governments can provide.
These people are so socialized after 30 years of ‘Reaganomics’ and ‘privatizing’ that they can’t even understand what Sanders is saying — or if they grasp it, he scares the living wits out of them.
The very people out to bury Obama are the most economically predatory, functionaries of oligarchs that we have seen.
To watch the WH, and even the Senate, allow themselves to be held hostage by these predators is causing me to lose all respect for the Dems.
This was a game of economic ‘chicken’, and the Dems blinked.
Shameful.
Eh? Kabuki Show-time. This is all part of the corporate-owned rightwing shill propoganda machine.
Thanks for the good post and for highlighting this drivel (good to know about it, really), but completely predictable and utterly unsurprising. Just dittohead stuff spewed out to bedazzle the masses *because it works* I’m sad to say. Even non-Dittoheads who traditionally vote “Democratic” believe swill like this. The Oligarchs aren’t stupid.
I think you have seen many economists praise it because they think it will help Obama succeed.
I actually think it will help him succeed too. And, better, the American people will too. You are going to see 2011 be a much better year than 2010.
Sadly for Obama, the GOP will also get credit. Getting both the House and Obama re-elected in 2012.
Maybe Mark Penn wants Obama to fail, maybe not. One thing is for sure: he is a terrible, terrible political strategist. Hillary Clinton would be president today if not for Mark Penn.
This was my favorite part:
“The Milbanks and Penns of the world invest the time to spin these fables because they think that senior members of the administration hate liberals so badly, and are so desperate for compliments, that they will fall for praise from people that hate them and want them to fail. They hope that the administration will take their advice and destroy itself and the Democratic Party by adopting policies that harm the nation (by making already record income inequality even worse) and require Obama to betray his campaign promises. It’s hard to conceive of a nastier insult to the administration – they’re convinced that Obama and his senior staff are uniformly incompetent.”
PeasantParty left off the fabulous last two sentences.
I wrote an e-mail to Josh about a year ago criticizing the disabling of comments [at that time, I think it was just on certain sections, not the whole site] and got back a nasty, screeching “rebuttal.”
I never visited again.
Actually, I think you’re incorrect in this, or perhaps have phrased it inartfully.
I don’t think Dana Milbank, Mark Penn and the others “want Obama to fail.” They want the POLICIES he originally articulated in the campaign to fail [transparency, close GITMO, end DADT, etc.] but Obama himself is doing just fine re making the POLICIES fail, but not “failing” himself [at least in their eyes].
Contrast this with McConnell, Boehner and all the Republican crazies who really DO want Obama to fail. They’re so stupid they can’t be grateful that they’re getting almost everything the want policy-wise, and the DEMOCRATS will get the blame for all this crap.
I hope we will all now start calling it “No Fingerprints.” Sorta like we “renamed” the “Catfood Commission.”
Sheesh, when I saw that they were pushing Evan Bayh and Michael Bloomberg, I suggested they call it “Wimpy Nasty Weasels.”
***”Penn’s October 2007 Book Salon chat appearance is a classic, as he was caught repeatedly trying to sell spin as scholarship.”***
Perhaps Penn is one of the ones who “convinced” Obama to bash DFHs, thinking FDL would be included in that.
***”this deal or no deal”***
Quite an “astute” analysis of the situation, coming from the self-proclaimed expert on all things Capitol Hill. /s
Obama-haters are becoming President Obama’s largest constituency. I’m even thinking of joining them.
Yeah, the whole “moved to the center” BS is pretty over the top. What does it even mean? Does that mean he’s moving away from Jamie Dimon and toward Jeffrey Immelt? Is he governing from the center of the Chamber of Commerce?
Milbank and Penn are pure poison. But that said, it’s not like the Obama admin has had a great track record. Frankly, they look like the Chicago White Sox in the 1919 World Series.
“First, and the chutzpah of this aspect is wondrous, those that hate Obama’s policies are telling Obama he is demonstrating his strength by surrendering on the Bush tax cuts to the wealthy.”
I got a little shock of recognition when I read that. It’s the same rhetorical game the anti-black right plays…black people who capitulate to racism are strong “independent thinkers”, while those of us who don’t are “wallowing in victimization”.
Excellent story. The top 1% own an incredible percentage of the total wealth already, and it’s not enough. It has to be about more than money to them. Do they want it all???
Supply-side economics didn’t work under Reagan, nor did it work under Bush. Unless, that is, one’s objective is a massive transfer of wealth to the oligarchy, in which case it was a smash hit.
We’ll end up giving the most to those who need it the least, and giving the least to those who need it the most. Because of the soaring deficit, social programs will take hits to pay for the lost tax revenue, and job growth will be limited, despite pronouncements to the contrary. Time to circle the wagons…
I agree entirely, also. As Rachel said, the “beltway media” like to write about liberals without actually repeating or summarizing anything they said. That way they can pretend they’re covering liberal activities, while actually subjecting liberals to an effective blackout.
I can’t believe how much flak Rachel herself takes here on FDL. I don’t agree with her on everything, but she’s very far from being a mainstream-media hack.
Exactly. Workers create profits and profits become wealth. That wealth may be used to create more jobs (these days, overseas) that in turn creates more wealth.
I agree. There’s a place for careful analysis, and there’s a place for ridicule. I love the “No Fingerprints” label!
I think that these columnists have identified Obama as a weak, needy man who can be manipulated because, for whatever reason, he has a desperate need for approval and acceptance by the world of finance, business, the Republican Party, conservatives,etc. In contrast, he is not only not needy for the approval of liberals and progressives, he despises them. Banks, pharmaceutical and health insurance companies, etc. have also learned how to push his buttons so that he will do what they want.
Further to my comment, I meant to point out that Obama has always been conservative. He campaigned as a progressive to get votes.
Part of it is a narcissistic hubris. Clinton displayed the same courting rupert murdoch. They think if they charm the people that seem to hate them the most, that is a validation of their persuasive powers.
I’ve long since come to the conclusion that the President is a craven empty suit. Probably the most sublimely concocted trojan horse in american political history.
The forces that really run this country are now effectively running it into the ground.
It is classic corporate raiding, take over a company, loot it, fire the employees, leave a worthless shell.
I support the Obama tax cuts for the rich. Don’t you?
The Dems don’t want to help the 99er’s: a 5th tier would increase the unemployment figures and make them look bad. Under the author’s theory, I’m surprised the Reps aren’t pushing for tier 5 since the resulting higher unemployment numbers will make the Dems look worse than they do already.
“tax and penalties on retirement accounts”
I hadn’t thought of that: great idea. Which Dems are pushing it?
It’s not that Perris is wrong (profit does come from people doing actual productive work), it’s that he’s overlooking the need for investment.
The folks on the factory assembly line putting the cars together (labor) are the ones creating wealth, but before they can do that someone has to come up with millions to build the factory.
Additionally, there is almost always a time gap between paying for the labor and realizing the profit, which means that wealth is needed to cover the payroll costs (as well as all other expenses).
Someone else here wrote about a very nasty replay from Josh to a fairly straight forward email. Anyone who claims to be a Democrat and can justify the complete sellout of Obama’s policies has some serious character issues.
It is the continuation of the Bush tax cuts tax cuts that have been in place since ’01 and ’03, tax cuts that led to the worst job creation decade in the US economy since pre-WWII days.
So no, I do not support them.
But am not at all surprised that you do.
Romney says the tax bill is lousy and he will blame Obama for the lousy bill when he runs against Baracken Promises. How can the Dems fall for the same tricks over and over again? And then, there’s Reid endorsing Lieberman, which show you that Senate majority leader is really an abused wife who kisses here abuser.
***”Someone else here wrote about a very nasty replay from Josh to a fairly straight forward email. “***
Could have been me. I posted it when it happened.
From Al Schumann at http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org/:
“…There’s no way to impute decency into existence. Obama and his flunkies hurl snide, nasty comments because they’re snide, nasty people. They evince an arrogant sense of entitlement because that’s what they have. They “failed” to push anything hinting at liberal meliorism because they’re opposed to it, and they opposed it very effectively. Well enough, in fact, that it’s bitten their expendable contingent. They’re going to keep opposing it too, and when they’re out of office they’ll daschle off to their rich rewards.”
nope, that’s exactly backwards
before someone can come up with millions to build a factory there has to be labor to gather those millions
you have fallen for the propaganda, the investors come from the jobs, jobs do not come from investors
unless of course you believe oceans come from rain
neither is true though their propaganda is certainly effective, see how it has convinced you
“…they’re convinced that Obama and his senior staff are uniformly incompetent.”
And how right they are! Obama’s top economic adviser has been Larry Summers, arguably the most incompetent economist in the country. In the 1990′s, the clown pushed all the deregulation that led to the current Great Recession. In the 2000′s, as president of Harvard, he lost a billion (with a B) dollars of Harvard’s endowment in the derivatives market he didn’t want to regulate.
“before someone can come up with millions to build a factory there has to be labor to gather those millions”
And how was that labor paid for?
You are incorrectly using “labor” and “jobs” interchangeably. Labor is producing a product which (when it sells) generates wealth. A job is when someone pays you for your labor, which means they have to have money available before the product of you labor is sold. Unless you’re willing to wait for it, that is.
Farmer Bob (who is broke) says, “Labor for me in the Spring sowing seed, then go away unpaid. Come back in the Fall and labor for me harvesting, then go away unpaid. When I finally sell the crop I’ll mail you a check.”
Farmer John (who has or has borrowed cash) says, “Labor for me in the Spring sowing seed, I pay every Friday. Come back in the Fall and labor for me harvesting, I pay every Friday. When I finally sell the crop I’ll repay my loan and keep what’s left.”
Which farmer succeeded in generating wealth, and which got laughed at?
Under your theory, the UAW wouldn’t need a jobs bank. Those idle auto workers could just build cars themselves and sell them on the street corner: after all, they’re labor and labor creates wealth, right? Can you explain why they don’t go do that?
Here’s the bottom line: it is labor (verb) that creates wealth, no argument. But there are pre-conditions that require pre-existing wealth: a place to perform the labor, tools to perform it with, materials to perform it on, money to pay your employees until the product of their labor sells, etc.
You need wealth to create jobs and the labor of the people doing the job creates new wealth, but they aren’t going to labor for you unless you pay them which means you need pre-exiting wealth.
Without jobs there is no labor and without wealth there are no jobs.
Do you know the one about the guy who had a job polishing the brass cannon outside a courthouse? He was doing okay but not really getting ahead in life so he saved up, bought his own cannon and went into business for himself.
labor was first payed for with product, ie the barter system which obviously evolved into money
you have incorrectly bought the propaganda that wealth creates jobs, this is patently false, unless you believe rain creates the ocean
jobs create wealth not the other way around, wealth relies on labor, labor does NOT rely on wealth
if all wealth perished but labor remained there would SOON be wealth, if jobs perished but wealth remained that wealth would soon perish
you cannot have wealth without labor, it relies on labor, it came from labor
again, unless of course you believe that rain creates the ocean, which apparently there actually are people who believe it, though they are hard to come by, here they are on this very thread
This was our “first clue” regarding Obama’s allegiance – Larry Summers. Now it’s all becoming crystal clear.
The enemies are cheering because they just managed to get Obama’s balls in their vice.
As I see, Obama will have nothing left to campaign on in terms of accomplishments which is precisely what the Repturds want. How he falls like prey right into their hands is amazingly naive…..or worse.
Sadly, their looking pretty prescient and delphic right now.
“labor was first payed for with product, ie the barter system which obviously evolved into money”
We’re a bit past the barter system now, in case you hadn’t noticed. Perhaps we should confine our discussion to the monetary system we have evolved into? The one where people who labor Monday thru Friday expect to get paid on Friday, even if the product they produced won’t hit the market for weeks/months/years?
“you have incorrectly bought the propaganda that wealth creates jobs”
Then please explain how you can create a job without the wealth to write a paycheck.
“you cannot have wealth without labor, it relies on labor, it came from labor”
I’ll agree to that again if once wasn’t enough for you: “profit does come from people doing actual productive work”. Now would you please explain how the laborers can accomplish their productive work without a workplace? Wealth is produced by labor, but people won’t give you their labor unless you pay them for it.
Have you noticed that your posts consist of platitudes and mine consist of examples, not a single one of which you’ve been able to address?
Which farmer actually brought in a crop (created new wealth) Bob or John?
Why don’t UAW workers just build cars (create new wealth) themselves?
Why isn’t the guy polishing his own brass cannon creating wealth from his labor?
Obama doesn’t deserve to get reelected. He didn’t stand up for any of the progressive principles he said he would. A terrible let-down. The GOP put him to the test and he failed.
I for one thought he’d be more than just another politician talking out of both sides of his mouth. How naive, I know.
Bill, thanks for all the hard work! It’s both direly needed and much appreciated.
Compromising with people who want you to fail always leads to failure.