by Scott Creighton
UPDATE at the end of the article…
As the liberal and “progressive” blogosphere breathlessly hypes the demonization of militia groups and Tea Party members as the real “homegrown terrorists” in America, I would ask you to pause for a second, take a breath, and just THINK for a minute.
You would think that after electing Barack Obama, most “progressives” and liberals would have learned a little something about jumping to conclusions based solely on emotion based rhetoric. You would think that they would be wary at this point of those who would mislead them with emotion based appeals which do nothing more than re-affirm their existing value structure. Let’s hope the lessons of the award-winning ”Product Obama” campaign aren’t lost on all the liberal intelligentsia.
Yesterday I had a conversation or two with a number of individuals who swore up and down that I was COINTELPRO or something because I dared to question not only the timing of the arrest of the Hutaree 9 but also the manner in which the apparent Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) and the FBI conducted the investigation. To me it seemed altogether too similar to several of the cases that “popped up” during the old Bush/Cheney days, in which the JTTF would “infiltrate” a group or individual of hapless losers, motivate them towards committing some kind of act of terrorism, put them in contact with someone who would make fake bombs for them, then parade them around as successful investigations in the War on Terror. The motivation of course was always the continuation of the funding for the War on Terror and its many public/private institutions of profit generating “security” providers and the simultaneous degradation of our civil liberties.
“It makes sense in general —but when you’re pressing people to undertake conduct they would have never undertaken without an informant pushing them along, there is a real question if you’re creating crime, not preventing crime.” David Cole
One individual actually went so far as to imply I was a “troll” and that I had no proof that the case had been fabricated for political reasons. This is the exact same conversation I would have with members of right during the Bush years when I would attempt to explain how the JTTF fabricated cases against “terrorist cells” while Fox News was breathlessly “reporting” each and every plot uncovered was proof positive that the “terrorists” were around every corner of every street. Well, the proof is slowing leaking out, as is usually the case when these things unfold, but the damage is already done.
The basic story line under the Bush years goes like this… (from the Rolling Stone expose “The Fear Factory”)
In other cases, the use of informants has led the government to flirt with outright entrapment. In Brooklyn, a Guyanese immigrant and former cargo handler named Russell Defreitas was arrested last spring for plotting to blow up fuel tanks at JFK International Airport. In fact, before he encountered the might of the JTTF, Defreitas was a vagrant who sold incense on the streets of Queens and spent his spare time checking pay phones for quarters. He had no hope of instigating a terrorist plot of the magnitude of the alleged attack on JFK —until he received the help of a federal informant known only as “Source,” a convicted drug dealer who was cooperating with federal agents to get his sentence reduced. Backed by the JTTF, Defreitas suddenly obtained the means to travel to the Caribbean, conduct Google Earth searches of JFK’s grounds and build a complex, multifaceted, international terror conspiracy —albeit one that was impossible to actually pull off. After Defreitas was arrested, U.S. Attorney Roslynn Mauskopf called it “one of the most chilling plots imaginable.” Rolling Stone
“one of the most chilling plots imaginable” was the propaganda from the Justice Department back in the old Bush years. Eric Holder just said of the Hutaree 9 case it was ”an insidious plan by anti-government extremists.” … and we have dealt “a severe blow to a dangerous organization that today stands accused of conspiring to levy war against the United States“
Aside from the breathless hyperbole of stating that 9 family members and assorted friends were about to “wage war on America” using their rundown doublewide as their base of operations, there are other ways the Hutaree 9 case is starting to look like the exact same model used under the Bush years.
Several national reports have been filed, one by Rachel Maddow and one by MSNBC’s Pete Williams, which mention the fact that the FBI (JTTF?) “infiltrated the group” several months ago. This is a very important aspect of the case for several obvious reasons.
“Brian, the FBI actually PENETRATED this group and had it under close surveillance for over a year and a half.” Pete Williams
“As I noted before, the FBI has had its eyes on this group for a long time. A local Detroit news station, Local 4, is reporting that the FBI had INFILTRATED the group for several months. Well, if the FBI had INFILTRATED them, that might explain why the FBI arrested them now.” Maddow
The actual criminal indictment filed against all 9 suspects supports this same conclusion, that the FBI “infiltrated” this group.
According to the first count of the criminal charges against them, on page 3…
(Image link, Hutaree 9 indictment, page 3)
All 9 defendants are listed as the militia group “Hutaree” and they are charged with conspiring “with each other and persons known and unknown to the Grand Jury“. Other persons would certainly be a way to legally describe the FBI or JTTF informant, now wouldn’t it?
Also according to the indictment, the group attempted to get a weapon of mass destruction by contacting “someone they believed to be capable of building it“. This is also strong evidence that the informant put them in touch with someone who he told them could make a bomb. Often in the Bush years cases, the JTTF would do the same thing, put the “terrorists” in touch with someone working for the FBI who would make a fake bomb or two for them.
In Rockford, “Jameel” repeatedly urged Shareef to dream up gory details of the havoc they would cause at the mall. Chrisman (the JTTF informant)had received a call, he told Shareef, from a man he called “Cap” —a contact willing to sell them weapons. They could buy “pineapples” —code for hand grenades —from Cap for fifty bucks each. Cap, of course, was an undercover agent…. But the resourceless Shareef couldn’t even raise that much money. So with the JTTF determined to push the “plot” forward, Chrisman announced that Cap had agreed to exchange the grenades for some used stereo speakers Shareef owned.
The next Wednesday, the two men met with Cap in a parking lot under the gaze of agents from the JTTF. As Shareef swapped the used speakers for four nonfunctioning grenades and a 9mm handgun with neutered ammunition, he was swarmed by law enforcement. News of the bust traveled the world over. “It had all the makings of a holiday bloodbath,” Fox News breathlessly reported. Shareef was charged with the ultimate crime in the so-called War on Terror: attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction. Rolling Stone
“Attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction“… that was the charge back in those days against a guy who couldn’t put a $100 bucks together at one time. One of the "most chilling plots imaginable", to be sure. Perhaps what was most "chilling" was the fact that it was completely concocted and arranged by a JTTF informant.
What is the primary and most chilling charge against the Hutaree 9? You guessed it, “Attempt to use weapons of mass destruction“
Now, this case is a little different, but you won’t read that in many of the breathless blogs dealing with the subject. In the Hutaree 9 case, unlike some of the earlier set-ups, the defends never set their plan in motion. Instead, according to the official charges, these guys attempted to put their fake bombs in the trunk of the car I guess and go show them off along with their guns at a “convention” as it were for militia groups. Apparently, according to the law, putting a bomb in a car and traveling on roads of “interstate commerce”, or e-mailing drawings of such bombs on the internets of “interstate commerce” counts as an ‘attempt to use a weapon of mass destruction”. But they never even made the trip because of the snow storm. The indictment is a little fuzzy on the actual statute of the crime they committed, but it is clear on one aspect… they hadn’t even decided on a target as of yet. So they didn’t make the trip and they didn’t even have a target picked out yet. So why did the JTTF and FBI decide to move on this group at this early stage in the investigation? Its starting to look "politically motivated" to me.
As this case drags on more information will surely become available, but I urge my liberal brethren that in mean time we ease off on the demonization of the “far righters” if we can for a minute or two. Let’s let the facts of the case pan out before we start labeling the militia groups and the Tea Party members as potential terrorists simply because they believe we are moving toward a fascist state in America.
Now I make this request based on what should be two very obvious facts.
1. Clearly the “facts” of this case show that it is at least moderately probable that it is exactly the same kind of contrived JTTF/FBI “homegrown terrorist” plot created under the previous administration purely serving a political end.
and
2. The Tea Partiers and Militia groups aren’t the originators of the “America is becoming a fascist state” public outcry… WE ARE
You guys don’t happen to remember Naomi Wolf do you? Remember her book from 2007, “End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot”? Remember all those lectures she gave? Remember how she was hailed as a hero on the liberal left for having the foresight and the courage to stand up to the Bush administration’s drive toward fascism?
In case you need a refresher course, here is a reminder… one of her lectures from 2007. Nearly 900,000 views and postings on various liberal websites all across America. This dates back to the good old days when liberals and progressives addressed such issues in terms that didn’t include the words “teabaggers” and “right-wing nut jobs”… ah, the good old days…
(Video link, Naomi Wolf, End of America Lecture, 2007)
Well, Naomi is at it again, this time she is featured in an interview on AlterNet in which she addresses this very same issue, folks. And I for one would seriously recommend you go over and read the whole thing. Here are a few choice samples for your consideration.
… JS: Why do you think the sides don’t understand each other?
NW: Frankly, liberals are out of the habit of communicating with anyone outside their own in cohort. We have a cultural problem with self-righteousness and elitism. Liberals roll their eyes about going on “Oprah” to reach a mass audience by using language that anyone can understand even if you majored in semiotics at Yale. We look down on people we don’t agree with. It doesn’t serve us well.
There is also a deliberate building up of two camps that benefits from whipping up home team spirit and demonizing the opposition. With the Internet there is even more fractioning since we are in echo chambers. With so much propaganda it is hard to calm down enough to listen.
…JS: What do you think is the biggest misconception about the Tea Parties?
NW: The Tea Party is not monolithic. There is a battle between people who care about liberty and the Constitution and the Republican Establishment who is trying to take ownership of it and redirect it for its own purposes.
…JS: In your essay, “Tea Time in America” you said that some of the Tea Party’s proposals are “ahead of their time.” What are some examples?
NW: I used to think “End the Fed people” were crackpots. The media paints them as deranged. But it turned out we had good reason to have more oversight. Or take their platform about states’ rights. Demographically, I’m a hippie from San Francisco and I’m not culturally inclined to be sympathetic to states’ rights. My cultural heritage is FDR and Medicare and federal government solutions. But if you think through the analysis, strengthening state rights is a good corrective of the aggregation of an over-reaching federal power. Take California’s challenge of the Patriot Act or states like Vermont leading the way with addressing the corruption of the voting system. It’s a good example of the Tea Party thinking out of the box on how to address a problem. AlterNet
Now, Naomi Wolf was certainly not the first American to bring this issue of a creeping fascism coming to America to the forefront of our debate back then. But she was certainly one of the most popular and well received in the liberal blog-o-sphere. With good reason; many found they could relate to her. Nothing wrong with that, in fact, I am hoping that it continues.
We are being driven apart from each other, one side versus the other. Cases like the Hutaree 9 are prime examples. On the right they demonize the “Muslims” and the “socialists” (like me) of the far left to sell their Homeland Security product and on the left they demonize the “Christian militia” groups and the far right for pretty much the same desired outcome.
Product Obama just railroaded a horrible bill through congress and his standing with the liberal left is certainly reeling as a result. So along comes an arrest of a group that had yet to even pick out a target, and immediately the “far left” blogs turn their focus to the “real terrorists” out there… the far right. It’s a scripted contrivance people, designed to rehabilitate the neoliberal Obama Product by comparison and to rejuvenate the far left in the phony “left verses right” paradigm.
We have to be smarter than that, people.
It’s not good enough to wait a year or so for the next Rolling Stone article to come out and then jump on the “yeah, see I told you it was bullshit” bandwagon. We have to see this crap as it happens and expose it for what it is; propaganda. If it was propaganda under the neoliberal Bush regime, it’s still propaganda under the neoliberal Obama extension.
****UPDATE****
It took less than 5 minutes of posting this article on my website for me to get my first comment. That was a little suspicious. Turns out that the comment is from a PR type firm like Burston-Marstellar who are apparently tasked to demonize the Tea Party movement. I read the comment, as I always do, and it didn’t sound like it really dealt with the subject at hand, but rather it focused on just one element of the article, the Tea Party movement. It uses emotion grabbing buzzwords in a way that a PR firm writer would.
So, I Googled the entire comment, and guess what? It’s been splattered up everywhere a hundred times. So it could be Burston-Marstellar and their Tru-Cast social networking shaping technology or it could be the NSA trying to sculpt the story, kind of a “human terrain” project. Who knows. But the fact is, the very first comment spammed up from an obvious propaganda agency lends credance to exactly what I am talking about here.
Funny huh?
(Image link, Google Search Page for Comment)
Turns out the IP address of the person who left the comment registers to a service provider in San Marcos, California and as it just happens… Burston-Marstellar has an office in San Diego, just a few miles south of the IP address… funny how that works out, ain’t it?



96 Comments




Good job willy. This really is a time to be super skeptical of these cases. Have you been following this story?
Actually, I was trying to find updates on that case while writing this but I couldn’t remember the guys name.
There is another update, btw… the Wall Street Journal is reporting that there was in fact a JTTF agent who infiltrated the group.
I think what’s going on may be more than just competing propagandas. Check out Mark Potok of Southern Poverty Law Center who shared some substantive information about the recent meteoric increase of right wing hate groups on Democracy Now yesterday.
As for the JTTF infiltration of the Hutaree group, of course it should raise questions just as FBI infiltration of non-domestic “terrorist” groups, which had no clear agenda prior to their infiltration, has raised questions about the existence of specific threats. In this case, was the killing of cops followed by the bombing of the ensuing funeral, as the press has been reporting to be the group’s plan, really the plan of the infiltrator?
Anyway, I found this disturbing either way:
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/30/rage_on_the_right_christian_militia
Another point to consider is that we have had actual terrorism here for years. Not that we’ve thought of it in terms of terrorism, because we’ve been conditioned to apply the terrorism tag in a racist or xenophobic context, but as Melissa Harris-Lacewell pointed out in an interview with Olbermann last night, American blacks have been the victims of terrorism for centuries. The KKK was a terrorist organization.
Left-wing groups in the 60′s, mistaken in their belief that it was time for the Revolution, committed acts of terror. And on the right we’ve had Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols.
So while the Right vs Left propaganda theory must be held in view so too, I think, must we consider that these are very contentious and volatile times and terrorism may be the means by which certain groups are in fact planning to advance their agendas.
Saw the Naomi Klein interview yesterday. It’s great.
I would also recommend the Salon.com piece today on how Rand Paul is freaking out the GOP because he may win the GOP Senate nom for Bunning’s seat in KY. Seems that Rand isn’t toeing the GOP terrorism line. (“They don’t hate us for who we are, they hate us for what we do”.)
It’s not a real important part of freedom of expression is it, this killing cops and then killing the mourners at their funerals?
You may have noticed some time or other that “hapless losers” actually do kill other people for no reason that makes much sense.
I’m not a real big fan of conspiracy law, but I harbor thoughts that there’s something to be said for arresting and trying people intent on organizing murders.
Just a note: the author mentioned Naomi Wolf not Naomi Klein.
As for who from the GOP is running against brain addled Bunning, one good quote does not a moderate make. Rand Paul? Now that’s a scary looking name.
That depends of course on whether or not that was the groups idea, or the agents, now doesn’t it?
“You may have noticed some time or other that “hapless losers” actually do kill other people for no reason that makes much sense.”
And who, preytell, did the Hutaree 9 kill? Or we free to now asign guilt by association after “everything changed on 911″?
According to the official documents, they hadn’t even picked out a target. That is the official story at least.
“I’m not a real big fan of conspiracy law, but I harbor thoughts that there’s something to be said for arresting and trying people intent on organizing murders.”
Again, who was the target? There was none. All we have so far is the “informants” word that they “intended” to kill someone.
I certainly don’t support the idea of killing anyone, or even planning on killing anyone for that matter.
But I learned long ago, that sometimes if you look past the hype and the hoopla, what you find is a very different story… especially when it comes to the world of “counter terrorism”.
This is very true. I don’t question the fact that some groups may intend to right injustices by the wrong means… that may very well be the case.
But my article deals specifically with the facts of this case as they are coming out and it ties into an established pattern of behavior by the JTTF and the FBI specific to cases like this one.
Also, in researching this case, it becomes clear that it is entirely possible these people, as misguided as they might be, may very well have been set up.
They had not attempted to use “weapons of mass destruction”, but rather to transport them to show them off… and they didn’t even manage to do that.
They had not even picked a target.
For all we know, this entire “kill a cop” idea may very well have come straight from the JTTF agent. The basis of that possibility is that they have done it before. Isn’t that troubling to anyone else, or just me?
All I am saying, is lets PLEASE be very specific before brandishing terms like “domestic terrorists” in these very dangerous times.
no willy, it doesn’t depend on whose idea it was. it depends on whether they intended to do it and went about organizing to do it.
everyone should look past the hype and hoopla and everyone should remain skeptical, both of the charges and of the baseless attempts to pin the blame on the feds.
there is nothing ‘breathless’ about being glad that a bunch of people didn’t die for no damn reason.
unless you have something solid, why not simply observe whether these guys go to trial on the charges and see if twelve people get convinced.
Because they are already being tried in the court of public opinion, aren’t they? Why is it so important to some to foster the idea that “terrorists” are running around in America? Every single article being hastily posted all refer to these guys as such and even go so far as to pin up “guilt by association” pictures of people like the Oklahoma City bomber.
And obviously I have something “solid”. For starters, I read the full indictment, I know they didn’t try to “use a weapon of mass destruction” or even successfully put it in their trunk to show off to their friends.
I also figured out that there was a JTTF/FBI informant behind it, even prior to the Wall Street Journal’s story…
So, if you don’t mind, that does qualify as “something solid”, thank you.
willy, I not real sure that I understand what you’re saying. They were charged with attempting to use bombs or mines or similar.
how do you know that the charge is untrue?
FYI:
The crime of Conspiracy consists of:
(1) an agreement between two or more people to commit a specific crime, and
(2) an overt act committed by a member of the conspiracy in furtherance of the conspiracy, with or without the knowledge of the other members. The act may be lawful or unlawful.
For example, if A and B meet in Ypsilanti and agree to kill X in Washington DC, and B rents a car (a lawful act) to drive to DC to do the job, the crime is complete whether B changes his mind and decides not to kill X.
Each member of the conspiracy is legally responsible for all crimes committed in furtherance of the conspiracy, whether they knew about them, if the crimes were reasonably foreseeable crimes that would have been committed by a member of the conspiracy. This includes crimes committed before a member joined the conspiracy.
The potential punishment for Conspiracy, depending on the jurisdiction, often is the same as for the completed crime, which would be murder in this case. It is the same in federal cases.
The entrapment defense admits committing the crime, but the defendant claims that he would not have committed the crime but for an undercover cop’s or cooperating informant’s behavior. Whether the defense will prevail depends on whether the undercover cop or cooperating informant merely provided an opportunity to do what the defendant was predisposed to do and eventually would have done if left to his own devices. If not, the defense will prevail.
The FBI has a long and distinguished history that assures its position in the law enforcement Hall of Shame for infiltrating antiwar groups and fomenting unlawful activities.
“NW: Frankly, liberals are out of the habit of communicating with anyone outside their own in cohort. We have a cultural problem with self-righteousness and elitism. Liberals roll their eyes about going on “Oprah” to reach a mass audience by using language that anyone can understand even if you majored in semiotics at Yale. We look down on people we don’t agree with. It doesn’t serve us well.” ; is REALLY something FDL’ers need to consider(Jane already has and taken a whole lotta crap because of it).
Redwein already pointed out the DemocracyNow interview with the SPLC; what I wonder about is will there be a discussion of whether the sedition law goes against the Constitution.
Willy, check this documentary out; a lot of what led to the nazism and fascism of WWII is happening in our country today.
yeah, it does. and the Hutaree militia sounds just like an anti-war group being goaded.
If you have a chance read the indictment that I linked to in the article. What you will find is that the law specifically states that attempting to transport a WMD on roads of interstate commerce is a violation of the law “attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction”.
They made that slight change in the law so they could arrest people before they actually lit the fuse so to speak. So they could arrest them while taking the bomb to the target.
In this case, the charge claims that the Hutaree 9 PLANNED on taking the IEDs or mines (not specific in charge) to a meeting of several other militia members…
… not to set them off, but to show them off. BUT, the snow storms kept them from doing it.
… but they charged them anyway.
all of that is in the actual indictment, macaquerman
I am sorry. I should have made that clearer in the article.
No apology necessary willy. I read the second count of the indictment and it’s quite vague, given my general ignorance of any of this.
as far as I can tell, sticking a device in the car and taking it somewhere is not at all alleged, implied or necessarily a part of the offense alleged.
I might well be incorrect, not knowing the details of the statute, but I would guess all the language about interstate commerce, and the communication instruments and modes employed by the defendants, and most surely the interstate trip, is mostly to bring the offense into federal jurisdiction.
Perhaps Mason would help with this.
The language is vague, you are correct. But as far as I can tell, and I did try to explain this in the article, …
… two seperate aspects of that crime seem to have been mentioned in the indictment. One was that it was planned to take the fake mine (or IED) to the militia convention, but they never got through the snow storm… and Two, by sending plans for the mine (or IED) over the internet, they also violated some interstate commerce law.
But the fact is, they are clear that they hadn’t even picked out a target as of yet, so they certainly weren’t transporting the fake bomb to set it.
BTW… more is starting to filter out. Though the FBI and JTTF have previously been reluctant to say so, the informant has been identified through the filing of another court document which straightened up the issue of his middle name…
http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/2132065,hutaree-militia-piatek-investigation-033110.article
right. they had only planned to take the fake weapon, thinking it was real, to a convention of militia guys to show it off I guess, like showing off an AK or whatever they show off to each other. But the snow cancelled that plan. But still, it is part of the indictment somehow.
But anyway, all people read is the charge “attempt to use a weapon of mass destruction”… which of course, had that been the case, I wouldn’t be argueing at all…
but planning to put something in your car and show it off to your militia buddies, at least to me, is a far cry from trying to blow people up.
“Isn’t that troubling to anyone else, or just me?”
If you’d read my post prior to the one from which you quoted you’d have seen I got your main point to a T. Or your main T to a point. (Why, I suddenly feel like Groucho Marx.)
Here, what I wrote from #3 above: “As for the JTTF infiltration of the Hutaree group, of course it should raise questions just as FBI infiltration of non-domestic “terrorist” groups, which had no clear agenda prior to their infiltration, has raised questions about the existence of specific threats. In this case, was the killing of cops followed by the bombing of the ensuing funeral, as the press has been reporting to be the group’s plan, really the plan of the infiltrator?”
Instead of “non-domestic” I might have written ‘non-white domestic “terrorist” groups’, since some of the infiltrated groups to which I’m referring were comprised of US citizens. Anyway, being infiltrated apparently is not all that uncommon and your concern is well-founded.
Even socialist sportswriter Dave Zirin has recounted his experience of being part of an anti-death penalty group in a Washington, DC suburb which was infiltrated by the MD state cops. What was their crime? Apparently they’d been planning on going out and saving someone.
There was one city that actually kicked the JTTF out of the city limits because of their undemocratic actions.
I want to say Portland, maybe? Weren’t they the ones who infiltrated peace Fresno?
You might consider taking your own advice, well stated here: “unless you have something solid, why not simply observe whether these guys go to trial on the charges and see if twelve people get convinced.”
Whereas just prior to that you stated: “……and everyone should remain skeptical, both of the charges and of the baseless attempts to pin the blame on the feds.”
How can you say the attempt to pin the blame on the feds IS baseless? willyloman has made a good case for considering this may actually have merit. And you prove yourself to be subject to exactly the jumping to conclusions against which his entire line is an important caveat.
What’s going on here which seems patently obvious is that both of your positions are demonstrably correct. That was the intended gist of my previous posts #’s 3 and 4, long before your debate with willyloman even began. As someone else put it “just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re NOT coming after you.”
COINTELPRO, of course. There also was a good piece discussing Gladio on the site within the last couple of days.
willy, as I said, the charge is vaguely worded and, for sure, people are going to understand that “weapon of mass destruction” a hell of a lot differently than what is actually meant, but I think that what you’re refuting is more the misunderstanding than anything else.
I’m glad that you’re shedding light on the lack of extraordinary significance of the device and plot, but I’m not really sure that these guys were innocent duped.
I can say that it’s baseless because I can’t see the basis for the claim that the feds lead these lambs astray.
willy has laid out a case for thinking that the guys weren’t likely to acquire a “weapon of mass destruction” in the ABC sense, and that the indictment is broad, and might be inflated, as they sometimes are.
he surely hasn’t made any case that the feds are behind the plot or to blame for the actions and attempted actions of the guys arrested.
see now, we are getting to understand each other.
Look, I agree with you. If someone had taken a bomb and planned to sucker a cop into a trap to blow them up, they certainly belong in jail, just for planning it and setting it in motion.
But here’s the thing; I could get someone, anyone, to confess to anything really, probably in a matter of days, or even hours, depending on what I was allowed to do. So does torture really provide the truth… or just “results”?
By the same token, there is something that could motivate anyone to agree to do anything. I’m not saying they were tortured obviously. What I am saying is that there is a button for everyone to do pretty much anything.
Now, if you take a clan of people who are isolated already, waiting for the EndTimes and the rapture, already prone to fear and mistrust (and it looks like they (and we) had pretty good reason), there are all kinds of buttons a JTTF agent can push on those guys to get them to agree to something.
That’s what David Cole was refering to when he talked about the thin line between exposing crimes in cases like this, and creating it.
It is to the informants advantage to get the targets to agree to a crime, or appear too, so that the informant gets whatever deal the FBI has offered. In a predatory invirnment like that, do you really get to the truth?
Did this case get to the truth or just “results”?
But of course, at this point, we don’t know what they agreed to and what they didn’t.
They could have just been using the informant to get some land mines they could show off to the other militia guys. You know, tell him whatever he wants to hear then back out of the deal after he delivered the goods. Course, not knowing he was an informant for the FBI, I guess if that happened they will regret it for the rest of their lives.
Anyway, we don’t know what happened. That’s all I am saying.
you’re right. we don’t know at this point. all we have is the indictment and some of the usual less-than-informative stuff in the media.
maybe we’ll learn a little more later.
I think willy is validly raising the prospect – the prospect, not an attempt to prove – that a rush to judgment is going on. It has been true in previous cases that an infiltrator was the prime motivator of a plot, arranged all the details, etc., where no plot or even motivation to carry out a plot even existed prior to the infiltrator’s involvement. The government has set people up, in other words.
I was disturbed by this when the targets were so-called Islamic extremists and I need to be concerned equally if the target turns out to be this Hutaree group. In such matters one must stand on principle.
But this is not to say the Hutaree group, or Islamic extremists, don’t have very nefarious intentions. We’ve obviously seen terror both from the domestic right wing and al-qaeda in our lifetimes. The government should be in the business of gathering intelligence on such real threats regardless of the source, and NOT in the business of setting up groups with fringe ideologies but with no intent to carry out nefarious acts.
The government, to use your language, HAS led the lambs astray in some cases. We can only hope we’ll get the facts in this matter.
I found this report quite interesting with regard to FBI tactics. I have a notion this barely skims the surface:
http://www.infowars.com/fbi-agent-discovered-at-center-of-alleged-hutaree-conspiracy/
good. we both know what the government has done and can do, and we all know what groups of bloody-minded fools have done and can do.
case-by-case analysis and judgments, with as many facts as can be had, sounds good.
I also found another article that delves into the same issue we are tackling here. It’s a good read.
http://www.independent.org/blog/?p=5565
willy, when somebody is asserting that the US is a police state, it’s probably wise not to take their analysis of this very seriously.
the TeaBaggers are anything but what NW describes them. What they ARE is a hapless group of racist and separatist whackaloon’s funded by elite Billionaires and their front groups who CREATED the TeaBaggers and fund the unsuspecting lackeys and prod them on in their insanity.
Koch Funds TeaBaggers And Other Groups.
From someone else at FDL earlier today who posted the links, forgot which Pup it was.
A bit OT from the post, but hey, NW was used so fair game to contest her stipulates.
You say this despite today’s revelations by Judge Walker that the Bush Admin conducted illegal warrentless wire tapping? And we know Nixon/FBI spied and wiretapped illegally? And every admin, or department of SOME Sorts has also spied illegally one way or another? Especially during antiwar group activities in the 60′s/70′s or now? Or did so against organized labor? Coal miners? In the 20′s and 30′s?
Wow.
Yeah, Larue I say it very seriously. The US is not a police state despite doing all those things.
Maybe you should put up s definition of the term and wow me after that.
The Tea Party didn’t start out that way Larue, it was hijacked and then systematicly diminished, pushed down a road that would be easy to dismiss as “racists and whackaloons”… but this was done on purpose. Hense, Glenn Beck’s adaption of the movement.
But they actually started off during the Bush administration, and they were more concerned with our diminishing civil righs and the encroachment of the powers of the Federal Reserve system than anything else.
Not only do we know that the federal government has been illegally spying on us for years now, and deliberately misleading us in order to justify doing that…
… but we also have the very recent news that the people of New York were very unhappy about what they called overreaction to the subway bombings in Russia. Apparently a lot of highly armed tactical squad members were flooded into the subway system, and the people there felt more afraid of them than of potential “terrorists”.
Let’s also not forget how police rounded up demonstrators at the last round of political conventions. Hell, even Amy Goodman got arrested.
How many times does it take for Peace fresno to be “infiltrated” before you start to worry about living in a police state?
And perhaps the most telling of all is the fact that as soon as someone suggests the possiblity that we live in a growing police state, you automatically reject not only the notion, but everything else they have to say.
You have internalized the police state. Its normalized to some of us. We don’t even see it any more.
And that is one of the clearest signs I think.
willy, what I’ve internalized is the definition of the term “police state” and it informs me that state attempts to abridge our liberties that are reported publicly, rejected in the courts, protested publicly and repudiated at the polls strongly suggest that we ain’t living in one.
Should both yourself and Larue disappear from the internet in the next day or two, I’ll re-evaluate.
Lol… thanks. I would appreciate that. Maybe pass the hat for some bail while you’re at it. That would be nice. too… at least they got healthcare at Gitmo… that’ll be a step in the right direction.
There is much to be concerned about with the Hutaree.
What I take from it is that no matter what, everyone must abide by current and existing law, at all times, without fail.
Those that are on the edges, and they know they are, need to be vigilant to their own statements and actions. No one else is responsible.
Some would say (like my father) “If you’re stupid enough to get entrapped, you deserve it”.
And here’s another way to look at it. If we really Love our neighbors and our nation, if someone starts talking about devices or plots, we make the call, at the first practical time, instead of waiting for them to make it.
Great Piece Willy – Peace
more bad news, willy. in a police state you ain’t getting any bail.
one of my introductions to the idea of federal power gone berserk was when AG John Mitchell started mooting the idea of preventive detention.
What a butchered analysis of which analyses we should take seriously! If you want to make a case please critique a specific argument rather than offer specious generalities.
I think that I very specifically aimed at the term “police state”?
Did that not come across?
I kinda thought that once the advocate uses that term in conjunction with arrests made by the police, he pretty much is not capable of offering “skepticism” as to whether to put stock in the claims of the police.
Mitchell, he was some piece of work. Highest Law Enforcement officer in our land. That entire administration was involved in corruption. It seemed as if there was no end to it. Did you read Woodward and Berstein’s work?
I was in the A.F. during that time period. We would receive sortie orders, technically listed as ‘training’ but we carried and dropped class ‘A’ weapons which are H.E. vs class ‘C’ which were training (dummy) devices. Laos was the recipient of most of those ‘training’ missions. (it’s been along time now, my memory is starting to fuzz a bit but that’s what I remember now) I didn’t have first hand knowledge of the origin of the orders but ‘the word’ was that they originated with POTUS. Purely scumbag lawyers looking for loopholes.
Well, North Korea we certainly are not. But there most certainly are creeping elements of a “police state” popping up.
Torture, preventive detention, assasination…. And by thier actions, our presidents have basically been saying that thier actions define the law. Sure we have laws on the books but are they enforced? Or does the President do as he pleases?
And there are all these citizens lists… no fly lists, terror watch lists… some of these lists have over a million people on them. People have ended up on such lists for doing things such as attending anti-war protests…
According to one ex State Governor, the CIA is also embeded in our state governments. The CIA does not have a domestic mandate. What the hell is it doing mucking with state governments?
and if you are declared an Enemy Belligerent, you aren’t getting bail either…
… does that mean we are getting closer to a police state yet?
Yeah, i read Woodward and Bernstein and also read the stuff printed in the NYT every day back then.
I don’t blame you a bit for the “fuzz”, it was a while back.
But all my fuzziness aside, it seems to me that things that we hoped would end with the ouster of Nixon are still around, but not any worse now than they were then. And by now, it could be a boatload worse.
What if he were talking about the arrests made in the run-up to the convention RNC convention. Arrests of people like Amy Goodman and the other peaceful activists.
They were all detained prior to committing any crime. Do those arrests justify using the term “police state”.
How about INS stops set up 200 miles into the US borders?
Or the posse comatatus violations, using military service members in police raids and arrests?
Do any of those arrests justify worrying about a “police state” developing in this country?
And if you take those things, and factor them into a story about what could very well be a case where an informant tried to steer these people into committing acts of violence, then are we then allowed to justifiably start mentioning those two words together? “police state”?
capt, see Wheeler’s discussion of Judge Walker’s ruling. Presidents try to do as they please, but they’re still getting beaten back now and again.
Oh yeah, I didn’t even remember that….
we can now kill US citizens, because, and I think this pretty much what they said…
… because there isn’t enough evidence to arrest and try them.
For that matter, why can’t we try “terrorists” or “homegrown terrorists” in civil courts now? Because the “evidence” won’t stand up to the light of day…
that doesn’t sound like a police state does it?
Why don’t we do it this way, macaquerman. Its a good article. It deals mainly with what mine talked about. If you can get past those two words, try and read it. I think you would find it surprisingly worthwhile.
willy, I’m an old fuck and remember when the police were beating the shit out of any one they pleased. There was a convention in Chicago in 1968. If Amy Goodman was at that one, maybe she can compare it to this last one.
In my opinion, the drive to fascism doesn’t hinge on these cases one way or another. The anti-Obama, corporate-funded teabaggers (who have a left and a right, as did the Nazis), in conjunction with the Republican politicians, form a potent fascist force. That doesn’t mean that we are living under fascism. (I’ve got a long piece on it here ( http://www.progressive-independence.org/diary/528/fascism-there-is-a-point-of-no-return ) if you are interested.
But some of the outlines of fascism are being set in place by the Obama administration. The question is whether some international financial/military/oil crisis will give the people currently backing Obama, who is trying to contain the working class and establish some kind of more cooperative world order) will give the powers-that-be cause to give the green light to the fascist mass base.
If it comes to that, then fascism will emerge from the heartland, not these fringe types.
Thus the focus on these fringe types, regardless of their actual guilt, does provide short-term gains for the Democrats, and obscures the real threat such as it is.
And I agree with you, willyloman. If the charges are bogus, then indeed this can only feed the right.
I did read it, willy, before I wrote anything.
Before writing this, I skimmed through it again.
It’s got some decent things in it, but it’s not really straight when it says that the left is embracing the current police state because the left likes who is being targeted.
I like to think that there are a hell of a lot of people on the left who aren’t embracing a damned thing and find it obnoxious of the guy to say that the left doesn’t remain skeptical of anything that the FBI says.
Well, we could go back further than that if you like. We can talk about the struggles during the old “robber baron” days if you like. They shot people in the streets back then. Or maybe back to the pre-revolution days when people had to house Red Coats in their homes…
What exactly does that mean though? Because stuff was back at the convention in ’68 we got nothing to worry about? That’s kind of a stretch don’t you think?
By that logic if we aren’t tossing slaves into the Colloseum on Sunday for entertainment, we are pretty much a freakin democratic nirvanna. Unfortunately that gives the people running this country a little too much wiggle room if you ask me.
and it wans’t the pubs convention that had the violence in ’68, it was the Dems. But there was a lot of violence that year, in many places.
What would it take for it to break out again? For JTT or Homeland Security to show up at a ‘Right To Bear’ picnic. That’s all.
If they’re demonized and vilified enough, we could get there.
Watch for the vilification of these groups by POTUS. I think that would be the next step.
willy, I’m not now and nowhere during this somewhat lengthy discussion saying that we’ve nothing to worry about.
what I’ve been endlessly, it seems, saying is that this isn’t a police state and hasn’t degenerated into something terribly more oppressive that we’ve seen in our lifetime.
we surely have plenty to worry about and the shit piled upon us in the last ten years has to be beaten back with both hands. I surely don’t want to be thought of as minimizing the danger. I just don’t want to sound like the sky already fell on us.
“find it obnoxious of the guy to say that the left doesn’t remain skeptical of anything that the FBI says.” But the question is whether the Left becomes significantly less skeptical when the FBI is targeting the Right. And this is not a question simply to be dismissed.
Nor is the point I raised with you previously which you dismissed again with reference to the term “police state” rather than responding to or with an argument. You originally substituted an epigram for an analysis. If you don’t think we live in a police state as defined in the article and as represented anecdotally in some of the posts above, then make your case. Or suggest other criteria for what defines a police state and argue that we don’t measure up.
And consider the possibility, if you want to go ahead and make your case, that the brilliance of our police state is its ability to maintain a low profile, though of course its ugly head pokes out and gets seen from time to time. And what good do the continual sightings of that ugly head do us? We’re still learning about COINTELPRO today, years after its damage was done. Too late unless we can learn a lesson there. What will we know in another 25-30 years about what’s happening right now? And what good will that belated knowledge do us then?
Right now this is an issue which skeptical, thinking people regardless of left/right politics could be attacking together. But we’ve settled for being divided and conquered on an issue – just one of many and hardly the most important of issues – where finding common ground is plausible.
Why insist on demonizing and stereotyping this entire group this way? And you even contradict yourself. You say that they are “racists and separatists wackaloons” and then you say that they are “hapless lackeys”. But they can’t be both. It is well known that there have been all kinds of struggles within the Tea Party Movement to control the group and the message. Yet you ignore this and blast away. It really makes one wonder when one sees people who are ostensibly on the left go out of their way to demonize and stereotype people. These are not progressive traits Larue.
check this out… a US incarceration rate graph…
http://www.gold-speculator.com/attachments/quinn-advisors/6026d1260811046-brave-new-world-2009-us_incarceration_timeline.gif
You see, that’s part of the problem. I hate to put it this way, but the truth is, the sky has fallen… just not on “us”… yet.
and that, my friend, is part of what I am trying to say in this article.
For those that haven’t read it, “It Can’t Happen Here” is a great read.
“Looking for hate in all the wrong places”
“The Southern Poverty Law Center has mastered the art of inflaming racial passions and it has moved from the not so sublime to the totally ridiculous.”
http://www.judyandreas.com/archive26.html
Ditto.
A good part of the Tea Party critique of government couldn’t at least appear to be anything but sensible to people on the Left. Some of the Tea Party opposition to the HCR bill, for example, is even identical to that on the Left – though the overall critique is different. But the group does seem to have been co-opted by fringe elements who bring to the table raging rabble rousing sophistry rather than reason. Rrrrrrrrrrrr.
Yeah, a group like Oath Keepers might be used like that. It ties in the police and military. And the odd thing about it, it’s publicly stated purpose is to get our police and military to take an oath to uphold the oaths that they already took.
Mebbe they are boyscouts, but our military and police swearing an oath to any private group doesn’t give me a warm fuzzy feeling.
Oath Keepers is run by Stewart Rhodes, a former Ron Paul staffer. So maybe this is a libertarian angle on things. Or maybe it’s a John Birch Society front. Dunno.
Some of Judy Andreas critique is right on – like pointing out some of the absurdity – but I don’t think she can discredit the main thrust of SPLC’s work. Over the years they’ve served an important democratic purpose. And trust me I’m not a fan of big non-profits where I’ve seen a lot of waste firsthand. (Non-profits, somewhat like banks, also can be too big to fail.)
I also think Mark Potok, the organization’s Intelligence Project Director, had some meaningful things to say yesterday on Democracy Now. I’d referenced it much earlier but here’s the link again:
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/30/rage_on_the_right_christian_militia
That’s a greatly interesting chart willy. good link.
off the top of my head, from living in NY and knowing a tiny bit about health care here, I’m gonna throw this out to you.
in 1955, in NY, we had about 93,000 people treated for mental health disorders as inpatients.
in 1981, the feds cut funding for mental health grants and for drug treatment by 25%.
in 1984, inpatients totaled about 32,000 and about 500,000 people were being treated as outpatients.
might be some connection in some odd way.
A Pearl harbor strategy, provoke the enemy into attacking so you can beat the shit out of him and still look like the good guy?
Tea Party Patriots are for reason, accountability, and limited government.
Little wonder those “Yes Voters” are afraid of us.
Yeah well… things started falling apart economically in the early 1970′s, about when Nixon ended Bretton Woods. Neo-liberal economics filled that void(in a bad way).
Reagan just made it worse with his ramped up War on Drug which was really GHW Bush’s War on Drugs. Never mind that Bush was the one who had the drugs flown into the country in the first place.
Today’s ongoing high unemployment rate will probably eventually translate into a high rate of crime and violence. Summers and Geithner seem to have very little interest in reducing unemployment… they are insane.
I’m all for reason and accountability but the limited government thing is a little off the mark. We need good governance and a sound banking sector(rather than casino banking). Limited government sounds a little bit too much like you want the big corporations to run everything.
There is no question that when many of the state institutions across the country were defunded in an attempt to promote private facilities to care for the mentally ill, many ended up falling the massive cracks and being picked up into the prison system. So that did have an effect, but by far and away the largest increase was do to the “war on drugs” as someone has already mentioned.
Is that what was said or is that what you heard?
There’s a whole bunch of fairly smart political scientists that have written about scenarios like this. To provoke, to manipulate, to win the PR battle in addition to the physical one.
I was tempted to recount a personal experience while in the service of this country, but after giving it a second thought, think I’ll pass.
It’s that absolute power thing again that Lord Acton warned about … just this: There is no reason for a POTUS to vilify any segment of the population as he represents the entire country. Not just one political party or special interest group(s). If he goes down that path, I’d guess he has a pretty good reason, either tactical or strategic.
The Tea Party groups were rather respectable back when they first started off, and for the most part they still are. You have a large percentage of them now working diligently to weedout the Glenn Beck influence that has attempted to hijack their movement. Yeah, they were a lot of Libertarians who wanted smaller government overall, but mainly they wanted the dictatorship of the Federal Reserve to be broken up.
You see Glenn Beck’s job is to mislead. He’s actually been running around telling people that the problem with W. Wilson was that he started a “socialist shift” in America, when in fact, one of the first Tea Party movements was all about the fact that W. Wilson brought back the privately owned Central Bank system, the Federal Reserve in 1913.
He later said it was the worse thing he ever did.
But you see, that’s how Beck is attempting to refocus the Tea Party movement.
You see, tea Party was a reference to the Boston Tea Party, that we all know, but what many don’t know is that we faught the revolution, not so much because of taxes, but because the Bank of England was devaluing the currency so much, we decided to create our own, one not connected to the privately owned Rothchilds bank a.k.a. The Bank of England… and they weren’t going to have that.
That’s what our modern day Tea Party movement started as.
SPLC’s placement of every We Are Change chapter on it’s list of “hate” groups is blatant bullshit. This is really just a threat. Question the government’s account of 9/11 or other major events and you will be regarded as a hate group by us and the major media (since they will repeat what we say). Sorry red, but I don’t give a shit what good they have done in the past. Now, they are part of the problem.
That is bullshit, in fact, it’s manipulative and corrupt
There is an update on the case…
Turns out that in court today, they played a tape of the leader making a speech he was to give at that rally with the other militias.
They did in fact have the informant make the fake bomb, and the charge does relate to planning on taking the bomb to the rally to show it off.
The tape they played in court is of the leader saying things like “take our country back…” and so on and so on…
BUT THERE WAS NO RECORDING OF HIM TALKING ABOUT KILLING COPS…
… all of that was submitted by the prosecutor as written witness tesimony and not recorded…
… so basically the prosecutor is saying “take my word for it… he said it” in court.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2011487704_apusfbiraids.html
Tea Party Patriots are a huge problem for Wall Street Lizards.
Tea Party Patriots do not take, or solicit, outside monies.
We are self-sustaining. We have no national leaders.
Patriots are not for sale.
willy, this was a detention hearing and not the trial, right?
they haven’t presented the entire case, and I tend to doubt that the rest of the case consists of the prosecutor saying “take my word for it”.
they usually save a juicy bit or two.
It is a detention hearing and the judge has not yet ruled. Point of fact, they may end up being allowed to post bond if the prosecutors case isn’t strong enough, so I don’t think they would hold back too too much.
It looks like their entire case may just rest on the say so of the prosecutions informant.
But either way, you have to admit, so far, my article is still on target… yes?
Just like the Liberal Blogosphere did with the Duke case, you mean?
When one defends loonies. The question should be, “are the defenders loonies to?”
The Muslum extremist are terrorists, but the Christian extremists are just good citizens wanting to fight against our oppressive Government in the name of their religion and our Constitution.
We are a sick Country and won’t admit it, and let the sickies have the Mic with all forms of our Media adding sickies by what they say.
I don’t think you spent much time reading either the article or the comments left here. Nor have you apparently read the indictment or the news releases that have come out in the last 24 hours.
But it’s a good thing you have already labeled them “Christian Extremists”… here, I will give you a new soundbite for free. Why not start calling them “Christofascists” and be done with it?
I’ll admit there are lots of sickies in our country.
Many of them work for the government.
willyloman, Thanks for writing this and reminding us to evaluate the news and information about this group/event critically.
mac, what he’s saying is that they may not have been inclined but they were manipulated. Anyone that is part of a pre-millenial cult is by nature gullible or susceptible to suggestion and probably naive. Perfect useful idiots.
Group Infiltration has been done for a long time by the military/CIA. Sometimes with not so much success, like against the sandanistas.
Here’s an old instruction manual for doing this in Guatamala. it’s been translated back to english, but it’s still instructive about how they do it.
http://www.pinknoiz.com/covert/tacayantoc.html
SPLC is a fear mongering group that is closely aligned with the ADL. Neither group watches out for extremism against muslims, only by them. You won’t see them mention the JDL either.
Slightly OT:
I watched some of the videos made by the guy that threatened Eric Cantor, Pelosi, and the theaters that were playing Babe, the pig movie.
He thought he was God and started all of his videos by saying Sholom to all his children. In one of them he said he wanted all of his gays and lesbians in the military to put down their weapons, turn them in with their uniforms and come home from the war because he was going to kill the warmonger pig generals and killer soldiers. Interesting.. He loved him some gays… In another he was going to explode the CNN building for something.. I don’t remember what.
Anyway, I downloaded the one about the movie Babe and was going to get more, but YouTube had removed them all.
With over over 500 videos, obviously he had produced enough source material to make one that said almost anything.
God knows he really came through in a pinch for his son, Eric Cantor, when he needed it most. /s
So you’re not banned after all, the small and meek jeffroby? Second thoughts about revisting Jane Hamsher? Is she still Oz, the Great and Terrible?
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html
How ironic then that the persecuted have become the persecutors, using the tactics of their former oppressors to destroy those they wish to control and/or exterminate. 9/11 was their Reichstag Fire (a near-perfect False Flag Operation – but for the “Dancing Israelis”), the pretext to launch their plan – rooted in revenge and greed. But they have taken it one step farther, compelling others to do the job on their behalf.
http://www.plungerspeaks.blogspot.com/
Evidence Of Treason Committed By JP Morgan Chase – Andrew Maguire Blows the Whistle – and someone tried to kill him days later.
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/38417
Thanks for educating me on this. I just read a little from a simple google search and will be sure to read more. Very troubling considering where Morris Dees started and in comparison to how the group projects itself. Seems like splc should be the subject of a Democracy Now segment.
“Radio Free America” – King World News Site Brought Down By Sophisticated Attack – JP Morgan Chase Suspected
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/38500
How about a Maryland state police informer being ferreted out after the fact of having infiltrated meetings of an anti-death penalty group. Sports/social commentator Dave Zirin, a member of the group, wrote about it. How many of these infiltrators don’t ever get noticed? The fact that I have to ask – and I obviously believe I’m justified in doing so – is indicative that a chilling effect already has set into the culture. Fear and distrust are key ingredients of stifling dissent though not, of course, without our ultimate complicity.
So if we’re already conscious on some level that we’re in a police state, then that would dictate a certain rational course of action to combat it. Primarily, we must do what DZ did: expose it. But denial, as I’m sure you’d agree, precludes any response.
Oh the list goes on and on. They infiltrated that group down in New Orleans. Remember that? I mean just look at Cass Sunstein’s essay where he openly advocates infiltration of activist groups for the purpose of creating dissent within the organization. And of course most people don’t know this but they have been infiltrating the Truth movement for years and years.
Hey, shek, I understood the idea that they may have been manipulated, but continued to say that we don’t know if that’s the truth. I suspect that when you call yourselves a militia, stock up on weapons and talk about cops as agents of the anti-Christ that you just might have an inclination to get violent.
Hopefully, we’ll get reports of evidence from the trial anf learn a little more.